I don't think you can put a price on what a dog brings to your life, so that question is probably a very personal one - not in a "don't ask that its to personal" way but in a "I personally would spend $xxxxx on a Nihonken that I really wanted" kinda way.
I think you should spend as much as you feel you need to in order to get the right dog for you. That can be a $30 adoption fee or a $5000 price tag, its entirely up to you and completely your business.
Excellent topic. This some thing that I also wondered about. I have been really fortunate that I did not have to pay a cent for my dogs (only the shipping costs) and I ended up with really good hunting dogs. I have been seeing Kishu prices in Japan in the 1500 range for a regular puppy with papers and well over that for champion show line or really good hunting stock Kishus.
I feel that dog prices are mostly based on pedigree and bloodline which some of these breeders over inflate the price. But what is a good shikoku or a Kai or a Kishu really worth? When I got Taro from my friend, he told me that selling a puppy from lets say a hunting line is almost false advertisment because you never know how the puppy is going to hunt when it is older. That was one of the reasons why he gave his dogs away and the his beliefe that the exchange of a huntng Kishu pup between two "Samurai" was the proper way.
But thats a great topic. What is a nihon ken really worth?
I agree with Brad. Totally up to you. As for what I would pay, it would depend on my current financial situation. If I can't afford the dog, then of course I won't buy it.
I consider myself frugal, but I'm willing to invest a lot of money to get the dog I think is right for me. But, as with all things money, it's totally personal. For instance, some people take it as a given that you should go into debt to buy a new car and make monthly payments, but I hate that and would much rather pay cash for a used car. Regardless of whether I could afford a new car, I hate making monthly payments. Everyone's different. What I am willing to pay for a dog is less than what a lot of people are willing to pay for a TV, for instance, but these same people might think I'm crazy for spending that money on a dog. I'd rather have the dog than the TV, though. No one needs a dog or a TV, so who's to say what's right or wrong?
My Shibas are worth so much more than I paid for them Toby was $1000, and while he is pet quality, he came from very good show lines, from a breeder who doesn't breed much. I feel like he was worth it. Except for his size, he's a pretty perfect looking Shiba. Bel was $300 from someone who wasn't a puppy mill or a backyard breeder, but also wasn't a great breeder--too many different breeds, probably too many dogs (though she was responsible enough to offer to take Bel back when I thought I was going to have to rehome her because of the fighting between my two). I love Bel, but next time around I'll be willing to wait longer and pay more to get a dog that is better bred, from a breeder who is more careful with early socialization instead of just letting puppies run around the farm, etc.
'course, you could pay a lot and NOT get a well bred dog too...or less and get a good one... I did come across a breeder of AA's not to long ago who was charging $900 for her dogs which were not AKC registered, and not because she seemed to have any idealogical issue with the AKC or because they were JA's or anything, but simply because none of her dogs were registered....that just kind of pissed me off...
I think this is a good topic, but I might word your questions a little bit differently....how about "What is a comprable price for a Nihon Ken?" I have a Kai, and I have seen them go for $600, $800, $1,000, and $1,500. If you think % wise, then there is a large gap between them. So why does the breeder with the $1,500 dog think they can sell them for that? And why would a breeder only value their pups at $600. This is a question that you are going to have to ask when purchasing your pup and looking for a quality breeder. The answers will vary, just make sure that they make sense (and cents...lol...ok lame I know).
Ofcourse, I'm going to be like any other doggy mom and tell you that my Koda is priceless! Now that he is in my life, I would have paid anything for him. But when looking to purchase a dog, I probably wouldn't have spent the $1,500 for a pup from the breeder who did quote me that price. Looking at their reasoning, reviews, pups looks, and pedigree I felt that they over valued their dogs and were selling them for too much.
I can tell you that in general count on a Kai costing $1,000 plus shipping in the US.
On this forum, we've had people who found stray pups & took them in. People who have rescued dogs & paid the $50-$150 adoption fee. & people who have paid anywhere from $300 to $5,000 or more for a pup, depending on the breed & how they acquired it.
It all depends on what you, as a person, feel is "the right price."
Be aware, the rarity of the dog also determines it's price. Some of the rarer breeds go into the thousands where as the more "common" breeds are in the upper-hundreds. There are also factors such as importing vs buying domestically. More often then not, when importing, the cost of shipping the pup outweighs the cost of the pup itself. [ sometimes, two or three times the amount of the dog ]
That said, I would much rather give my hard-earned money to a Breeder who is ethical & works hard & essentially is only charging to cover their costs [ some examples of costs = importing dogs, time taken from work, feeding the dogs good food, doing vaccinations for puppies, health checks, etc. ] vs some breeder who's only there to make a profit$.
Also bare in mind, the price between breeders of the same breed can vary significantly. Breeders who run health checks, are constantly importing new breeding stock, feed a more quality food, etc. are likely to charge more than a breeder who does none of the above, or little of the above.~
OK Osy, you know I think you are great but I am going to have to disagree when it comes to Kai. I don't know of anyone breeding in the US from new bloodlines, at the moment or within the next year and a half. I would not pay 1 1/2 times more money for bloodlines that are so similar.
You say Also bare in mind, the price between breeders of the same breed can vary significantly. Breeders who run health checks, are constantly importing new breeding stock, feed a more quality food, etc. are likely to charge more than a breeder who does none of the above, or little of the above.~
This doesn't even apply to the breeding done in the US for Kai right now. There are no new bloodlines currently being bred. The top Kai in the US belongs to Pam, and it's Player. Player's pups don't even go for $5,000. I would not pay $5,000 for a Kai in the US with the current breeding that is going on. NO WAY!!!!! Plus not every Kai breeder has had all the health checks on all their pups. Remember, there are only 5 in the US. Just as rarity, supply determines price, so does demand, and demand for Kai is not high. Breeders have pups who are older that are still up for adoption because they are difficult to sell.
Ofcourse there are two people on this forum who have rescued Kai's, but really that is a rare rare case. You will not find a Kai for $50-$150 at a rescue.
Tara - I was not talking about Kai specifically but dog breeds in general. Please go back & read my post, I don't mention any specific dog breeds by name.
ETA: My first post in this thread was not in response to yours, but to the OP. ~
I understood that you were speaking to the original question. I just felt like it wasn't answering the question honestly.
I have come to notice that most people do not feel comfortable in talking about how much they paid for their dogs. I have a girlfriend who likes to ask people. I think to shock or annoy people for fun. It's funny to watch their reactions. But I would have loved someone to honestly tell me what price a Kai usually costs when I began my search. So, I am passing that bit of info. onto the poster. Just an honest straight forward answer. And I think that it was asked of specific breeds, NK breeds.
*edit* I also feel like I need to add that people tend to glorify breeders. I don't know of any Kai breeder in the US that health checks ALL their dogs. Not a large breeder anyways. This may be partly due to not having bad bloodlines, due to lack of bloodlines. But I have seen on this forum before where people have these long lists of what they expect their breeder to do or have. It's unrealistic in so many ways, and unobtainable in Kai breeding.
Yes. & while maybe for kai the above instance might not be true in every circumstance, it is true for some of the other Nihon Ken.
Some people & breeders have imported their Japanese Akita for $5000 or more. The current rate for shikoku is in the $2000 - $3000 range since they are harder to get & costly to import. Some have adopted their shibas for only $50 - $150. & some have even adopted shiba they found on the street. We even had a member who took in a stray Jindo [ for free ] & another who took in a stray AA. Shiba from a breeder are anywhere from $500 - $2000.
My answer was essentially, prices are all over the place for the various Nihon Ken. Whether it be Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba, Hokka, or Kishu.
& yes, some breeders do like to charge a bunch of money just because they think they can. That's life. Some breeders feel they have a monopoly. While you might not think "Player's" pups are worth $5000, the next person might think it's very much worth it.
The prices will always fluctuate. While you might have paid x amount for Koda a few months ago, today the price might be different. There are too many factors going on to say that "Yes, Kai will always be $xxxx." Perhaps that litter are of "poor quality" so the price drops. Perhaps the litter is of heavily brindled kai, so the price goes up. Perhaps someone wants "First pick" this too can cause the price to rise. & maybe the person doesn't get to pick at all, that might bring the price down too.
&, since this is a personal question, while you might not want to pay $1500 for a kai, *I* personally wouldn't mind, especially if it was a "first pick" choice, or if I really like the stud / bitch, or maybe the pup had an amazing temperament, or excellent brindling, etc.
But, this is my HONEST humble opinion, & you have yours.Just because you don't agree with my answer, doesn't make my answer "wrong" or "dishonest." I think we can agree to disagree ~
Tara - They were just examples on why a breeder might want to raise costs. Again, not all breeders are like this. But if I was running a million health checks [ like a Local JA Breeder I knew did Hips, Eyes, Knees, Thyroid on all stock ] I would raise the price of my dogs to cut my losses. Didn't say breeders HAD to do this. Just gave an example of why the cost of a pup might go up. ~
My answer was and still is that I can only answer for Kai, and with Kai count on paying around $1,000 plus shipping in the US, red brindle or black brindle.
There is never a too much, or a too little. I'd just say do plenty of homework, find all the breeders you can, pick the ones that you'd want a pup from, and then deal with the financial aspect. It definitely wouldn't be a good idea to ever pick a dog based on price.
I'm in a totally different boat than most on the forum as I live in Japan. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $1000 for a dog, as I can get quality pups of any of the Japanese breeds for under that price tag. That being said, if I was looking to start a breeding program, I might be willing to pay more if there was a dog I knew I had to have.
I am amazed at how much it must cost to breed dogs- I dont know numbers but just from reading the forum - and at this point I would be surprised to learn that (real) breeders make any money from the sale of a litter at all. Especially considering that some of these breeds have only 3 pups on average. When you tally up cost of say a breeding female, stud fee, all vet visits, including for problems, travel, shipping, food, tests and certifications- I can only imagine that one cannot come up with a reasonable price just dividing all that by 3. Right?
Could I butt in? I only know of European and Japanese prices for JA, if anybody is interested.
In Japan, the price of a dog/puppy ranges from 300 000/250 000 JPY (E1/E3 - a dog of good stock, adult dog that has no title) to 2 500 000/2 000 000 JPY (A1/A3 - triple super high grade, adult dog with all Japan Champion title) WITHOUT TRANSPORTATION. The quality of a JA ranges from A to E according to quality and pedigree.
In Europe, prices vary hugely, but please, please never buy a JA (or any dog) if you don't know perfectly the JA standard, conformation points, health issues, etc. It's best to take someone with you if you don't know these things because you can end up paying A LOT of money for 0 quality. You can get a dog with no papers for as little as 200 euros, a pet dog with papers from 350 euros and great quality puppy for 2 000 - 3 000 euros.
My personal example: when I chose the male I had little experience - no more than 1/2 year worth of research. I paid 800 euros for him (including transport). He came from one of the biggest kennels in my area (not my country, my area). He has poor conformation and poor temperament. In the past 2 years I think I've spent more than 5 000 euros worth of food, specific supplements for his joints, vet bills, etc. I made the worst mistake I could make - trusted the breeder. I will never make that mistake again.
With the female, I've learned my lesson - I talked to the breeder for about two years, I went to pick her up myself (2000 km one way) to check for conformation and temperament. Except for some joint supplements (as a precaution) she needed nothing but good quality food.
As for the price of the puppy - a breeder will take into consideration the following: the quality of the puppy (the most important thing - in a litter not all puppies are show quality and it's not about the size and shape of urajiro or quality of coat or wrong bite - I'm talking about conformation - angles, proportions - length of bones, etc. A good breeder makes an evaluation when the pups are 8 week old and places the pups in accordance to the results. A puppy with slipped hocks or high shoulders or long stile - all these affect movement if you know what you're looking for and an experienced judge would penalize the dog in the show ring. However, if the breeder sells this dog as a pet but the owner wants to do agility with him in a couple of years time his joints would be ruined. It's not possible to sell him as a working dog either because he wouldn't last too long. So he must be sold as a couch potato (to my mind - the best 'job' a dog could have LOL and my male enjoys every minute of it). Ooops, I think I sidetracked a bit.
Right, so this is what goes into your pup's price: quality, pedigree (IMHO it's about 1/3 in importance for how a dog develops but it affects the quality of his offspring), and then all the expenses - food, vet (including health checks - hips, eyes, thyroid, maybe knees, elbows, etc), training, shows (for example 1500-2000 km each year one way for WDS or EDS - transportation, hotel, specific equipment and grooming products, handler, fees - I think we paid almost 100 euros last year for entering the bitch to WDS), then you must take into account all expenses with the breeding - finding the right sire for the bitch (you don't just get your neighbor's dog and that's it - so much research is put into it - find the right bloodline to work with what you've got, find the faults in your bitch and locate a male from the right bloodline that would correct her faults, investigate the male's progeny - how good a sire he is, go see the male to check for conformation and temperament), maybe even attend shows in which you know his progeny will perform), then do the progesterone tests and take days off work because you don't know when the crucial 48 hours will be, jump in the car when the vet gives you the ok and travel usually more than 1000 km to get to the male in time - transportation, hotels, etc. Then - best food for the bitch while she's pregnant, regular vet checks (ecographies), possible C-section (one of my friends, a JA breeder nearly lost one of her females - all the pups died but one and the female was saved in the last moment because something went wrong with the birth). Then all the best food for the pup and time spent socializing the pup making sure he is ready to go into the world with confidence - time off work again.
There is no profit for a real breeder, don't kid yourselves. Or not at the beginning. After you put in some hundreds of thousands of euros in your dogs you will get profit (and there are such breeders in Europe). I honestly never make the math. I would go crazy to see how much is spent for the dogs. But I am confident that the price of the puppies would not cover all the expenses. Real breeders don't do it for the money. A real breeder does it for the sake of the breed and because sometime in his life a specific dog from this breed of his touched his heart in such a way that it left a mark forever and changed HIM forever. After you put so much of your heart in bringing these puppies into the world nobody would be good enough and no money could pay for the pup. He will always belong to the breeder because he is a part of the breeder, a part of his soul.
Ooops, I got a bit mushy. Sorry for the novel. Hope I didn't bore you to death.
Later edit: when I talk about transportation there is only one kind for me - by car because it the least stressful for the dog.
As for the price - when I got my male I was still undergraduate and I wasn't working, so I saved all my scholarship for almost one year to get him. 800 euros was a lot of money for me. In my country the minimum wage is the equivalent of less than 200 euros.
Now I think I would pay up to 3 000 euros (should be about 5000 USD) for the RIGHT JA puppy even if I had to take a loan for it (not taking into account transportation or other expenses). A life is worth much more than a car, a TV, a trip, etc. A dog will stay with you for more than 10 years. How many years do you keep a car or a TV? And no price is worth the suffering of your pup when his joints cause him pain. I would know.
It seems many people prefer a breed with pure bloodlines. However to be honest I'm just looking for a companion dog. I'm looking for a dog that is truly mine and that I can be a part of his/her lives and vice versa. Just Nihon Ken are my preference as they are so majestic. IN MY OPINION, a dog with a pure bloodline or not doesn't matter. As long as they are loving and loyal to you and that they are in good health. That's why I've asked your opinions about prices. I think I'm looking for a breed that is just healthy and great to be with so I don't exactly know reasonable prices for those. I'd take a Shiba or Akita or etc. even if it didn't have a strong bloodline. I;m not saying strong bloodlines are good because obviously theyre great. I wouldn't mind getting one either. Its just that I love all dogs and wouldn't limit myself to just PURE bloodlines.
Rescues are great. Rakka is a purebred shikoku from pure bloodlines and I heard about her through this forum and went to pick her up, but the previous owners didn't want any money, just a good home. I spent 16 hours driving in one day and had to pay GST for her at the border, but otherwise, she was "free." Of course, cost of caring for a dog is basically the same no matter what the purchasing price is, and Rakka has had to have surgery for a growth on her neck and she's had a few emergency vet visits because she's had run-ins with wild animals or otherwise hurt herself. If you add it up, I may have spent more on her than I did on Tojo or Skella, both of whom are purebred dogs that I paid for.
Tojo was $600, which was $200 less than all the other breeders in my area were asking, but after talking with the breeder and visiting them, I just found that I liked her and her dogs the best. The price was a bonus.
Anyway, if I were you, I would just start looking around and see what dogs are available from where and which ones are your favourite.
A few people have raised the point that there are numerous expenses when it comes to dogs and those expenses play some role in the price of a puppy. I'd like to turn that around (sorta in the vein of what Heidi just said). The purchase price of a puppy won't even scratch the surface of what it will cost to raise and train it. If you are doing the absolute minimum for your dog and it's completely healthy, it will cost you on average $1,300 a year. Throw in some emergencies, top quality food, training classes, and incidentals to spoil your dog and that number goes up quickly. So, let's be conservative and say your dog lives to be 10 years old. You're talking about $13,000-$20,000 dollars in expenses over that time period. From that perspective, does it really matter if the cost of the puppy is $200 or $2,000 or even more? Not IMO. Again, it all comes down to getting what you want. If you meet and fall in love with a particular puppy or rescue and the price is $3,500, are you going to say "it's too much"? Only you can answer that. What is reasonable to you is something only you can determine.
I'll also point out that I got Lucy for $500 from a really crappy breeder and I stopped keeping track of how much I've spent on her health around $8,000. That was over a year ago and Lucy is just a bit over 3 years old. Joey cost me $1,200 and we've had a few vet visits for things like a stomach bug or a cut pad, but otherwise he's been very low maintenance. Is it the cost of the puppy that indicates quality? Not really. In Lucy's and Joey's cases, cost was an indicator of the breeder's quality, but that's not a guarantee. Your best bet is to find a breeder or rescue you are really comfortable with, and then figure out if you can afford the dog. If you can't, then perhaps it wasn't meant to be.
I got my two huskies at young age. The breeder did one thing only; breed them for best health and performance since he uses them for sports & competition. I spend a few hundred dollars each, including pedegrees, chip and whatever else you do at puppy age. Until today, they have not been sick for one single day. They will be 12 years in a few months. The only extra expenses I had, besides good food and a few vaccinations, was when they had a fight. They prefered to have arguments in the weekends so the vet could make her extra bonus :-) But most times i didn't even went to her, it just healed by itself. So picking the right breeder does make a lot of sence. It saved a lot of money but even more important, it saved the dogs lots of trouble too. For the shikoku we have to see in the future, he had a different price tag but so far zero trouble.
To me I'll pay whatever to get the dog I want considering they're totally worth it. I've just been advised not to spend too much as I am WAY too young to even have a few thousand to spend. There was a JA breeder I was interested in but after emailing her only once she was very rude and took my email to offense for no reason. I'm sure she meant well her reply made me very uncomfortable. And she's one of the few breeders I've been able to find in Cali. She never gave me a price although I asked her. ):
Every breeder is different, but the majority of the breeders I've been in contact with that I felt were worthwhile to get a puppy from would consider asking the cost of a puppy in your first communication a bad sign. It would immediately raise suspicions. YMMV though.
Great topic. I paid $1100 for Kaeda and she IMO was worth every penny. Most of the prices I have seen have been Pet quality in the $1000-1500 and show at $1500 -$2000 for Akiho registered JA. Most prices I have seen to import is $5000-$10000 unless you have a connection.
Like I said in my whisper to you, my ears went up on pure JA in California and the breeder would not talk price with you.
If you are looking for pal - I put in my vote for Rescue too.
I'm located in Orange County.
I emailed him just yesterday so I am waiting on a reply.
Why is asking for prices considered a bad sign?
I just want to know the range from different breeders so I tend to ask.
Breeders don't mind if you ask for the price, but Like Dave said, Breeders just see it as a "bad sign" if that's the first thing you ask them when you contact them for the first time. [ not all of them, but a lot of them do ]
A breeder usually expects a potential puppy buyer to inquire about the breed's characteristics, the breeder's program, how they breed, etc...price usually comes after whether or not you've determined the breed / particular breeder is "right for you." So when someone's first e-mail is asking about price, [ which in a breeder's mind is a relatively small thing compared to whether or not you are right for the breed ] the breeder considers it "rude."
Again, that's not all breeders, but I know when I first started looking at breeders, I was forewarned to not ask about price first as I was told it's considered "rude." [ Maybe it makes the breeder feel like they're just a "petshop?" ] It's a sort of mindset that you should first figure out if you want that dog / breed..then worry about price.
Or, that's what I've had a Pom Breeder & Great Dane breeder tell me...don't know if it applies to nihon ken, but I'm sure it's along the same thought-process.
ETA: The above is just a generalization of "why it's 'rude,' or a 'bad sign' to ask about price in the first email." I don't know how you formatted your email to the breeder, if you asked anything else, which breeder it was, etc. I'm only answering based on what I've been told by a few friends & some other breeders I've spoken to.~
Everybody has raised some very interesting points, I just want to add some things:
JackBurton is completely right, it's all about who you know and who you are.
Dave, Sangmort - you are right. If someone would send me an email asking only two questions - if I have puppies and how much it costs it would definitely push my buttons. But if that someone told me who he is, where he's from, why he considers getting a JA, how long he's researched the breed to see if it suits him and why he chose to contact me to get a puppy, if he asked me to tell him something about my dogs, their health and temperament, etc - if he told me all that and at the end asked about the price I would automatically tell him a smaller price because he seems to be the kind of person I would entrust one of my babies - a responsible person that does not jump to get a puppy just because he saw it on TV or his neighbor has it or whatever. To my mind it boils down to trust, I would agree to sell a puppy for half his worth if I were confident that he would have a better home. But I'm just nuts LOL, I would probably keep all of them. I've heard a great breeder saying that all her dogs are for sale. If anybody could give them more than she does she would gladly give them away.
Adri, I think you are extremely lucky to live where you live. It's so easy to get a great pet from your local rescue centre, you definitely know what you're getting yourself into, you know if he is healthy or if he has specific problems.
In Japan it is also rude to ask for a price without any other information. It is like going to a car dealer, point a nice color in the showroom and ask how much the piece of metal behind the color will cost. They really don't like this kind of stuff. Because in most cases, if you haven't informed yourself, you have no clue anyway. If you would have asked the question in the first place, how much a nice dog for home and nothing else should cost, it would have been a different question; there is text and context. You need one for companienship. That's a great reason to pick a dog but doesn't require special qualities in the dog other than being friendly and healthy. I think breeders get these price questions all the time, everyday, and they are not willing to waist time on people who are not serious about the breed. If you ask price you don't show interest in their hobby to breed the best possible dog they could. So you ask price to compare prices to other breeders. Without knowing what you compare to what, they think it is rude, since you don't know anything about their dogs, just the type of breed they happen to have. How would you feel if someone asked you a price for something you spend maybe decades on creating? It is very hard to value something if you don't know what it is. I think, before I got my Shikoku it took many emails finding the one we wanted and building up a relation with the breeder. Once we were convinced it was the full package we were looking for we asked for the price. Than still someone with know how had to go to Japan, check all out, pay many more expenses on paperwork, chipping, medical, pedegrees and prepare the flight back.
So is the cost what I finaly paid for it or does it include all the research and traveling and all extra?
Irina & Nico put what I was trying to say in very eloquent wording. Great job guys! You said what I was trying to say a million times better.
Adrienne - We don't know what was in your email. We are just giving you examples & an explanation as to what / why a breeder would consider "rude" in a first contact to them. ~
It is my understanding you are still a little while yet from getting your dog? If you don't mind, I'd like to suggest you go to the Pet Expo this April (16th-18th) at the Costa Mesa Fairgrounds (http://www.petexpooc.com/petexpooc/index.html).
There will be many breed booths there, including Akita, Shiba & Shikoku Ken. Also, they will have many rescues and shelter dogs available for adoption. They have animal entertainment shows and education...as well as many retailers with items for sale.
It's worth a look. If you end up going, please come visit me, Shoushuu and Kotomi at the Shikoku Ken Booth and introduce yourself .
Comments
I think you should spend as much as you feel you need to in order to get the right dog for you. That can be a $30 adoption fee or a $5000 price tag, its entirely up to you and completely your business.
JMHO.
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I feel that dog prices are mostly based on pedigree and bloodline which some of these breeders over inflate the price. But what is a good shikoku or a Kai or a Kishu really worth? When I got Taro from my friend, he told me that selling a puppy from lets say a hunting line is almost false advertisment because you never know how the puppy is going to hunt when it is older. That was one of the reasons why he gave his dogs away and the his beliefe that the exchange of a huntng Kishu pup between two "Samurai" was the proper way.
But thats a great topic. What is a nihon ken really worth?
I consider myself frugal, but I'm willing to invest a lot of money to get the dog I think is right for me. But, as with all things money, it's totally personal. For instance, some people take it as a given that you should go into debt to buy a new car and make monthly payments, but I hate that and would much rather pay cash for a used car. Regardless of whether I could afford a new car, I hate making monthly payments. Everyone's different. What I am willing to pay for a dog is less than what a lot of people are willing to pay for a TV, for instance, but these same people might think I'm crazy for spending that money on a dog. I'd rather have the dog than the TV, though. No one needs a dog or a TV, so who's to say what's right or wrong?
'course, you could pay a lot and NOT get a well bred dog too...or less and get a good one... I did come across a breeder of AA's not to long ago who was charging $900 for her dogs which were not AKC registered, and not because she seemed to have any idealogical issue with the AKC or because they were JA's or anything, but simply because none of her dogs were registered....that just kind of pissed me off...
Ofcourse, I'm going to be like any other doggy mom and tell you that my Koda is priceless! Now that he is in my life, I would have paid anything for him. But when looking to purchase a dog, I probably wouldn't have spent the $1,500 for a pup from the breeder who did quote me that price. Looking at their reasoning, reviews, pups looks, and pedigree I felt that they over valued their dogs and were selling them for too much.
I can tell you that in general count on a Kai costing $1,000 plus shipping in the US.
On this forum, we've had people who found stray pups & took them in. People who have rescued dogs & paid the $50-$150 adoption fee. & people who have paid anywhere from $300 to $5,000 or more for a pup, depending on the breed & how they acquired it.
It all depends on what you, as a person, feel is "the right price."
Be aware, the rarity of the dog also determines it's price. Some of the rarer breeds go into the thousands where as the more "common" breeds are in the upper-hundreds. There are also factors such as importing vs buying domestically. More often then not, when importing, the cost of shipping the pup outweighs the cost of the pup itself. [ sometimes, two or three times the amount of the dog ]
That said, I would much rather give my hard-earned money to a Breeder who is ethical & works hard & essentially is only charging to cover their costs [ some examples of costs = importing dogs, time taken from work, feeding the dogs good food, doing vaccinations for puppies, health checks, etc. ] vs some breeder who's only there to make a profit$.
Also bare in mind, the price between breeders of the same breed can vary significantly. Breeders who run health checks, are constantly importing new breeding stock, feed a more quality food, etc. are likely to charge more than a breeder who does none of the above, or little of the above.~
You say Also bare in mind, the price between breeders of the same breed can vary significantly. Breeders who run health checks, are constantly importing new breeding stock, feed a more quality food, etc. are likely to charge more than a breeder who does none of the above, or little of the above.~
This doesn't even apply to the breeding done in the US for Kai right now. There are no new bloodlines currently being bred. The top Kai in the US belongs to Pam, and it's Player. Player's pups don't even go for $5,000. I would not pay $5,000 for a Kai in the US with the current breeding that is going on. NO WAY!!!!! Plus not every Kai breeder has had all the health checks on all their pups. Remember, there are only 5 in the US. Just as rarity, supply determines price, so does demand, and demand for Kai is not high. Breeders have pups who are older that are still up for adoption because they are difficult to sell.
Ofcourse there are two people on this forum who have rescued Kai's, but really that is a rare rare case. You will not find a Kai for $50-$150 at a rescue.
ETA: My first post in this thread was not in response to yours, but to the OP. ~
I have come to notice that most people do not feel comfortable in talking about how much they paid for their dogs. I have a girlfriend who likes to ask people. I think to shock or annoy people for fun. It's funny to watch their reactions. But I would have loved someone to honestly tell me what price a Kai usually costs when I began my search. So, I am passing that bit of info. onto the poster. Just an honest straight forward answer. And I think that it was asked of specific breeds, NK breeds.
*edit*
I also feel like I need to add that people tend to glorify breeders. I don't know of any Kai breeder in the US that health checks ALL their dogs. Not a large breeder anyways. This may be partly due to not having bad bloodlines, due to lack of bloodlines. But I have seen on this forum before where people have these long lists of what they expect their breeder to do or have. It's unrealistic in so many ways, and unobtainable in Kai breeding.
Some people & breeders have imported their Japanese Akita for $5000 or more. The current rate for shikoku is in the $2000 - $3000 range since they are harder to get & costly to import. Some have adopted their shibas for only $50 - $150. & some have even adopted shiba they found on the street. We even had a member who took in a stray Jindo [ for free ] & another who took in a stray AA. Shiba from a breeder are anywhere from $500 - $2000.
My answer was essentially, prices are all over the place for the various Nihon Ken. Whether it be Kai, Shikoku, Akita, Shiba, Hokka, or Kishu.
& yes, some breeders do like to charge a bunch of money just because they think they can. That's life. Some breeders feel they have a monopoly. While you might not think "Player's" pups are worth $5000, the next person might think it's very much worth it.
The prices will always fluctuate. While you might have paid x amount for Koda a few months ago, today the price might be different. There are too many factors going on to say that "Yes, Kai will always be $xxxx." Perhaps that litter are of "poor quality" so the price drops. Perhaps the litter is of heavily brindled kai, so the price goes up. Perhaps someone wants "First pick" this too can cause the price to rise. & maybe the person doesn't get to pick at all, that might bring the price down too.
&, since this is a personal question, while you might not want to pay $1500 for a kai, *I* personally wouldn't mind, especially if it was a "first pick" choice, or if I really like the stud / bitch, or maybe the pup had an amazing temperament, or excellent brindling, etc.
But, this is my HONEST humble opinion, & you have yours.Just because you don't agree with my answer, doesn't make my answer "wrong" or "dishonest." I think we can agree to disagree
I'm in a totally different boat than most on the forum as I live in Japan. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $1000 for a dog, as I can get quality pups of any of the Japanese breeds for under that price tag. That being said, if I was looking to start a breeding program, I might be willing to pay more if there was a dog I knew I had to have.
In Japan, the price of a dog/puppy ranges from 300 000/250 000 JPY (E1/E3 - a dog of good stock, adult dog that has no title) to 2 500 000/2 000 000 JPY (A1/A3 - triple super high grade, adult dog with all Japan Champion title) WITHOUT TRANSPORTATION. The quality of a JA ranges from A to E according to quality and pedigree.
In Europe, prices vary hugely, but please, please never buy a JA (or any dog) if you don't know perfectly the JA standard, conformation points, health issues, etc. It's best to take someone with you if you don't know these things because you can end up paying A LOT of money for 0 quality. You can get a dog with no papers for as little as 200 euros, a pet dog with papers from 350 euros and great quality puppy for 2 000 - 3 000 euros.
My personal example: when I chose the male I had little experience - no more than 1/2 year worth of research. I paid 800 euros for him (including transport). He came from one of the biggest kennels in my area (not my country, my area). He has poor conformation and poor temperament. In the past 2 years I think I've spent more than 5 000 euros worth of food, specific supplements for his joints, vet bills, etc. I made the worst mistake I could make - trusted the breeder. I will never make that mistake again.
With the female, I've learned my lesson - I talked to the breeder for about two years, I went to pick her up myself (2000 km one way) to check for conformation and temperament. Except for some joint supplements (as a precaution) she needed nothing but good quality food.
As for the price of the puppy - a breeder will take into consideration the following: the quality of the puppy (the most important thing - in a litter not all puppies are show quality and it's not about the size and shape of urajiro or quality of coat or wrong bite - I'm talking about conformation - angles, proportions - length of bones, etc. A good breeder makes an evaluation when the pups are 8 week old and places the pups in accordance to the results. A puppy with slipped hocks or high shoulders or long stile - all these affect movement if you know what you're looking for and an experienced judge would penalize the dog in the show ring. However, if the breeder sells this dog as a pet but the owner wants to do agility with him in a couple of years time his joints would be ruined. It's not possible to sell him as a working dog either because he wouldn't last too long. So he must be sold as a couch potato (to my mind - the best 'job' a dog could have LOL and my male enjoys every minute of it). Ooops, I think I sidetracked a bit.
Right, so this is what goes into your pup's price: quality, pedigree (IMHO it's about 1/3 in importance for how a dog develops but it affects the quality of his offspring), and then all the expenses - food, vet (including health checks - hips, eyes, thyroid, maybe knees, elbows, etc), training, shows (for example 1500-2000 km each year one way for WDS or EDS - transportation, hotel, specific equipment and grooming products, handler, fees - I think we paid almost 100 euros last year for entering the bitch to WDS), then you must take into account all expenses with the breeding - finding the right sire for the bitch (you don't just get your neighbor's dog and that's it - so much research is put into it - find the right bloodline to work with what you've got, find the faults in your bitch and locate a male from the right bloodline that would correct her faults, investigate the male's progeny - how good a sire he is, go see the male to check for conformation and temperament), maybe even attend shows in which you know his progeny will perform), then do the progesterone tests and take days off work because you don't know when the crucial 48 hours will be, jump in the car when the vet gives you the ok and travel usually more than 1000 km to get to the male in time - transportation, hotels, etc. Then - best food for the bitch while she's pregnant, regular vet checks (ecographies), possible C-section (one of my friends, a JA breeder nearly lost one of her females - all the pups died but one and the female was saved in the last moment because something went wrong with the birth). Then all the best food for the pup and time spent socializing the pup making sure he is ready to go into the world with confidence - time off work again.
There is no profit for a real breeder, don't kid yourselves. Or not at the beginning. After you put in some hundreds of thousands of euros in your dogs you will get profit (and there are such breeders in Europe). I honestly never make the math. I would go crazy to see how much is spent for the dogs. But I am confident that the price of the puppies would not cover all the expenses. Real breeders don't do it for the money. A real breeder does it for the sake of the breed and because sometime in his life a specific dog from this breed of his touched his heart in such a way that it left a mark forever and changed HIM forever. After you put so much of your heart in bringing these puppies into the world nobody would be good enough and no money could pay for the pup. He will always belong to the breeder because he is a part of the breeder, a part of his soul.
Ooops, I got a bit mushy. Sorry for the novel. Hope I didn't bore you to death.
Later edit: when I talk about transportation there is only one kind for me - by car because it the least stressful for the dog.
As for the price - when I got my male I was still undergraduate and I wasn't working, so I saved all my scholarship for almost one year to get him. 800 euros was a lot of money for me. In my country the minimum wage is the equivalent of less than 200 euros.
Now I think I would pay up to 3 000 euros (should be about 5000 USD) for the RIGHT JA puppy even if I had to take a loan for it (not taking into account transportation or other expenses). A life is worth much more than a car, a TV, a trip, etc. A dog will stay with you for more than 10 years. How many years do you keep a car or a TV? And no price is worth the suffering of your pup when his joints cause him pain. I would know.
Tojo was $600, which was $200 less than all the other breeders in my area were asking, but after talking with the breeder and visiting them, I just found that I liked her and her dogs the best. The price was a bonus.
Anyway, if I were you, I would just start looking around and see what dogs are available from where and which ones are your favourite.
I'll also point out that I got Lucy for $500 from a really crappy breeder and I stopped keeping track of how much I've spent on her health around $8,000. That was over a year ago and Lucy is just a bit over 3 years old. Joey cost me $1,200 and we've had a few vet visits for things like a stomach bug or a cut pad, but otherwise he's been very low maintenance. Is it the cost of the puppy that indicates quality? Not really. In Lucy's and Joey's cases, cost was an indicator of the breeder's quality, but that's not a guarantee. Your best bet is to find a breeder or rescue you are really comfortable with, and then figure out if you can afford the dog. If you can't, then perhaps it wasn't meant to be.
Every breeder is different, but the majority of the breeders I've been in contact with that I felt were worthwhile to get a puppy from would consider asking the cost of a puppy in your first communication a bad sign. It would immediately raise suspicions. YMMV though.
Like I said in my whisper to you, my ears went up on pure JA in California and the breeder would not talk price with you.
If you are looking for pal - I put in my vote for Rescue too.
I emailed him just yesterday so I am waiting on a reply.
Why is asking for prices considered a bad sign?
I just want to know the range from different breeders so I tend to ask.
Oh Ben likes to talk on the phone more that email. fYI
A breeder usually expects a potential puppy buyer to inquire about the breed's characteristics, the breeder's program, how they breed, etc...price usually comes after whether or not you've determined the breed / particular breeder is "right for you." So when someone's first e-mail is asking about price, [ which in a breeder's mind is a relatively small thing compared to whether or not you are right for the breed ] the breeder considers it "rude."
Again, that's not all breeders, but I know when I first started looking at breeders, I was forewarned to not ask about price first as I was told it's considered "rude." [ Maybe it makes the breeder feel like they're just a "petshop?" ] It's a sort of mindset that you should first figure out if you want that dog / breed..then worry about price.
Or, that's what I've had a Pom Breeder & Great Dane breeder tell me...don't know if it applies to nihon ken, but I'm sure it's along the same thought-process.
ETA: The above is just a generalization of "why it's 'rude,' or a 'bad sign' to ask about price in the first email." I don't know how you formatted your email to the breeder, if you asked anything else, which breeder it was, etc. I'm only answering based on what I've been told by a few friends & some other breeders I've spoken to.~
JackBurton is completely right, it's all about who you know and who you are.
Dave, Sangmort - you are right. If someone would send me an email asking only two questions - if I have puppies and how much it costs it would definitely push my buttons. But if that someone told me who he is, where he's from, why he considers getting a JA, how long he's researched the breed to see if it suits him and why he chose to contact me to get a puppy, if he asked me to tell him something about my dogs, their health and temperament, etc - if he told me all that and at the end asked about the price I would automatically tell him a smaller price because he seems to be the kind of person I would entrust one of my babies - a responsible person that does not jump to get a puppy just because he saw it on TV or his neighbor has it or whatever. To my mind it boils down to trust, I would agree to sell a puppy for half his worth if I were confident that he would have a better home. But I'm just nuts LOL, I would probably keep all of them. I've heard a great breeder saying that all her dogs are for sale. If anybody could give them more than she does she would gladly give them away.
Adri, I think you are extremely lucky to live where you live. It's so easy to get a great pet from your local rescue centre, you definitely know what you're getting yourself into, you know if he is healthy or if he has specific problems.
So is the cost what I finaly paid for it or does it include all the research and traveling and all extra?
Adrienne - We don't know what was in your email. We are just giving you examples & an explanation as to what / why a breeder would consider "rude" in a first contact to them.
It is my understanding you are still a little while yet from getting your dog? If you don't mind, I'd like to suggest you go to the Pet Expo this April (16th-18th) at the Costa Mesa Fairgrounds (http://www.petexpooc.com/petexpooc/index.html).
There will be many breed booths there, including Akita, Shiba & Shikoku Ken. Also, they will have many rescues and shelter dogs available for adoption. They have animal entertainment shows and education...as well as many retailers with items for sale.
It's worth a look. If you end up going, please come visit me, Shoushuu and Kotomi at the Shikoku Ken Booth and introduce yourself