Tyson is getting big!/softening a hard mouth?

edited August 2010 in Kai Ken (甲斐犬)
I've now been in my new place in NC for a month and a half, so I thought it would be good to give an update.

We're all settled in (although I still have to finish getting my home office setup). The pups seem to really like it here despite the heat. They love the yard, although I'm having a really difficult time with Lucy and her constant search for anything to eat. It's been a royal pain.

Tyson has grown a lot! He's really maturing into a handsome dude.

I took him for a romp in the woods last weekend. It has been in the mid-90s to low-100s consistently since we've gotten here, so we haven't done as much woods romping as I'd like. I'm hoping that will increase as time goes on.

He was a good boy, even though it was pretty hot. He stuck close most of the time, but ventured off on a scent trail twice and to chase something into the trees once. He flushed two pairs of doves by accident and flinched pretty bad both times. It was pretty funny.

Here are a few pictures of him.
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Due to the heat, we stopped for a while at one of the lakes. Tyson has splashed around in a few streams before, but this was his first deep water experience. With a minimal amount of coaxing, I got his to wade in a few inches. He seemed to like it, so I took a stick and tossed it out a few feet to encourage him to go deeper. He started hesitantly for it, but stopped when he would have lost contact with the bottom. After splashing around a bit, I took my boots off, rolled up my shorts, and waded in with him. He ventured out a bit deeper so I gently lifted him up and swung him around the deeper water. He splashed a lot...he wasn't too happy with it, but stayed right next to me when I put him back down. I think with a little practice, he'll be a great swimmer.
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* You can really see his brindle in that last one.

On the hunting front, I've struck out on every attempt to find training opportunities for him. It's frustrating, but I'm coming to realize I just don't have the connections with the short amount of networking time I've had. I'm not ready to give up, but I'm considering starting to train him as a bird dog. He will need a lot of work on four fronts to make that happen:

1) Scenting. His natural range seems to be appropriate for bird hunting, but he doesn't show much interest in using his nose to find them. He chases those he can see, but he will walk within a few inches of a bird in cover and not notice it.

2) Gun shyness. We've been working on that consistently for the last few weeks and he has improved a LOT. I've been firing off a cap gun in different proxmities to him while he eats his meals. I just graduated to being in the next room with the door open and the first and second time he flinched a bit, but it doesn't seem to bother him anymore. We'll keep that up for a while before graduating to a .22 pistol.

3) Retrieving. He is not a natural retriever. He will retrieve with some encouragement, but it isn't his default behavior. I'm planning to buy a few bumpers to start working with him more seriously on it.

4) Softening his mouth. This is probably the biggest hurdle to training him as a bird dog. He has a VERY hard mouth which doesn't play well for downed birds. I have a few ideas for working with him on this, but I'm curious if anyone else has some ideas. I'd appreciate all the help I can get!
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Comments

  • edited November -1
    Hi Dave, No ideas on the training things you mention, but wanted to share a few things I noticed with Josephine. Maybe they are breed specifics?

    -- At the ripe old age of approaching 4 (in February), Josephine now seems to be using her nose much more than her sight when it comes to rabbits or other things she likes to hunt. She points when she sees a bunny or larger bird. Her whole approach has changed even though she has had no formal training. At first she was exactly like you describe Tyson... chasing what she could see, and what a delight that was for her!
    -- Josephine has never liked to retreive anything. She will give chase to a ball or a frisbee or whatever, but ONLY when another dog is chasing. Then she seems to be just along for the social run, as she NEVER gets the object thrown.
    -- Don't know if I understand the terms hard and soft mouth, but she was very tender with the partridge and the bunnies she has caught and killed. Not sure how she learned this, but it worked well in each case because Steve dressed out the animals, cooked the meat, and provided her with the feast for 2-3 days afterward!
    -- Oh, and she is not fond of water at all, except the swampy, shallow water if there are bugs or other critters in it! She may sometimes be enticed into water over the tops of her legs but takes strong motivation... usually another dog she wants to play with, but for the most part she stops and will not go deep.

    Thanks for sharing the pics of Tyson... he is amazing! Lucky drive for you the day you decided to go to Taos!
  • edited November -1
    Tyson chicken is awesome! His brindle is really nice. Someday I must meet him in person.

    There was a guy I met once who taught his dog to have a soft mouth with a squeaky toy that had lemon juice in it. If the dog squeezed, lemon juice came out. But I'm not sure if you want to go that route. You know labs can have really hard mouths. I wonder if any hunters who use labs would have any advice.

    I have never gotten Koda to track birds other than quail. He gets interested in them sometimes when they fly close by, but birds are not his thing. Maymay, the murderer she is won't go for birds either. Quails are the exception as well with her.

    Good luck with the retreiving. ha ha ha. Tell me how that goes.
  • edited November -1
    you probably know this, but you can buy a real-feel grouse dummy with a soft body and hard, swingy head and hard feet, you can inject the body with eau-de-grouse too.

    If I havent recommended this to you- a book- (yes, here comes Chrystal "Hermione" with another solution in... a BOOK, since she has none from real life) "Positive Gundogs" by Jim Barry.

    Ty looks good- like a grown up! His tail is really fluffy!
  • edited November -1
    Hey man!

    Tyson has really matured , & looks great ! I really like the picture of him on the trail.

    It sound 's like your about to swim against the current when it comes to training him to be a bird dog! Good luck. I can honestly say however, I see you as more of a bird hunter than a hog hunter anyway!
  • edited November -1
    he is growing up nicely. his brindle is looking good.
  • edited November -1
    Ty looks amazing Dave. I love his tail! The second to last pic is really nice, I like it a lot. Nice!
  • edited November -1
    Also, I have not help for the hard mouth thing - that dog's mouth is crazy hard. LOL Good luck with that. ;o)
  • edited November -1
    @Dave S. - you wrote: "I can honestly say however, I see you as more of a bird hunter than a hog hunter anyway!"... I don't understand, why do you feel that way about Dr. Dave or Ty? Am I missing something here? I don't get what your comment is implying - just curious. (???)

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  • edited August 2010
    Brad ,
    hmm... let me try to say this with out offending any hunters. I guess I've been around a lot of bear hunters & watched quite a bit of hog hunting videos.Which there are many similarities between the two.
    I've also been around a lot of bird hunters.
    It 's been my observation that as with any sport a certain type of person often gravitates to to an area based on their personal style.
    Hog hunting with dogs very brutal .In my personal opinion very cruel & abusive to both the hog & often to the dogs physically.
    Having met Dave briefly last yr . he just doesn't strike me as a guy that can stand by & watch dogs aggressively & brutally rip at a another animal.
    I 'm not passing any judgement & it was actually said from my view ,as a compliment .
    That's all :)
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for the compliment!

    Does nobody have any suggestions on softening his mouth? I will start a new thread about my ideas if nobodu wants to chime in.
  • edited November -1
    Ah, I understand now, Dave S. Thank you. I thought maybe there was some hidden (needed) quality I was missing or a location issue or something.
  • aykayk
    edited August 2010
    I don't have a clue on how bird hunters or even birddog boot camps teach a soft mouth on a hard-mouthed dog.

    If I were to improvise, I would find a hard plastic object that he can't bite down hard on. A modified fresbie or a spiny bumper. Or a homemade dumbbell with a metal center. See if he treats it better or more gently than a soft toy. If so, give a cue word whenever he plays with those types of toys (varying the toy up so he doesn't think the cue word is the name for a particular toy rather than the owie feeling if biting down hard).

    Seems a pity to not utilize his natural hard mouth in some venue though.


    edit: Read an interesting suggestion to use a pine cone and cover it in grouse feathers. :-) And only introduce him to frozen birds until he softens the mouth.
  • edited November -1
    I found this short article on Labs with hard mouths and a training technique. Kind've simplistic, you may have already tried this.
    http://www.trainingyourlab.com/soft-mouth-training-for-labradors

    I'm still thinking that the answer is with the Lab community. Lots of Labs have hard mouths, and need to be taught soft mouth for hunting.
  • edited November -1
    He looks so happy. :)
  • edited November -1
    Thanks for the suggestions guys!
  • edited November -1
    Tara, interesting article. I think I may try that with Harley and see how it works.

    Dave, Tyson looks amazing! And I am glad that you guys are all getting settled in. As for the softening a hard mouth, I am not sure that I have any suggestions, as I am having the same issue with Harley... But more of a biting issue than a hunting issue here. If you find something that works well, let me in on the secret!
  • edited November -1
    You could probably start Ty on bears out there in NC depending where you are. There's a season, isn't there?
  • edited November -1
    Yes, there is a bear season, but it is highly restricted especially for the use of dogs. With the exception of 4 counties out west in the mountains, boar are completely unregulated by the wildlife commission on private lands. They are restricted to other open seasons on public lands though.

    Hunting bear with Ty presents the same training obstacles as boar though. It's all a matter of networking and finding the right place which as of yet I haven't been able to do. :-(
  • edited November -1
    if you lived here, you could network with the Vermont Bearhound Association ( there's a website)
    ...my own dogs and I are not up for that sort of mayhem ourselves, but I am interested in their work. One of the things they do with their dogs is chase off nuisance bears, so one needent assume shredding of dogs or bears necessarily.
  • edited November -1
    Chrystal,

    With regards to your comment "so one needn't assume shredding of dogs or bears necessarily" . It really doesn't make a difference to the bear or the dogs whether its a hunt or just a chase .
  • edited November -1
    @Dave: I think Chrystal was referring to the fact that if you're chasing a bear off, the dog doesn't need to "hold" it in place for the hunter. It can thus be trained to avoid fights along the lines of how the wildlife comission in Alaska uses KBDs to scare away bears.
  • edited August 2010
    Dave,
    I know that wildlife commissions use KBDs in that fashion. But with regards to you & Tyson your is that your goal?

    I am aware that kai's are tough,smart & fearless & this is what they have been breed for.

    Bears are very powerful & unpredictable & a large boar won't hesitate to kill a dog. Bears will kill & severely injure 100's of "BEAR" dogs this fall around here.
    Keep in mind that a bear is a predator ,not a prey animal so it is not designed to run away like a prey animal. chasing a preditor is against the ways of nature.
  • edited November -1
    I dunno that "the ways of nature" is exclusively one-directional - Actually, I'm pretty sure it bidirectional. Predator becomes Prey more often than not, otherwise predators would have killed all the prey already.

    Consider us humans, we're predators, but I'd bet money that anyone of us would turn tail and run our asses off if an adult moose or bull was charging us. Moose and Bull are prey animals. Shit, I'd probably run from a horse or a deer if it charged me too. So does that make me broken as far as "the ways of nature" go? I think it comes down to natures version of Risk-Reward Ratio. I think that is the true "way of nature".

    Predator becomes prey...





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  • edited November -1
    I think Brad summed it up nicely. Furthermore, I'd like to point out that most bears prefer to avoid a fight if possible. Especially the black bear which is the only species of bear found in NC. Also, boar are not predator animals, they are scavengers. But I think we'd all agree that a boar poses a significant threat to a dog. So threats aren't linked directly to predation.

    Either way, I think Chrystal's point is valid. If you're using a dog not to control the bear population, but to control the location of bears, the inherent risks to the dog are likely fewer.

    In my case, I have no interest in bear hunting as I don't ear bear meat and they aren't a nuisance animal like boar.
  • edited August 2010
    Very interesting perspective guys. Let me point out Brad that your video shows the water buffalo defending ,patrolling & chasing,...not hunting with the intent to kill & eat in order to survive.There is a huge difference.
    Being chased By an animal does not make that animal a predator .Also your thought that if it only went one way that predators would have killed all the prey already is simply not true. Nature has a balance predators typically only kill in order to eat or teach their young survival skills.Predators & prey live in balance Just to give you one example ,notice how many prey animals there are in relation to natural predators. That is not because it is bi directional ,it's by natural design & birthing & survival rates.
  • edited November -1
    Dave

    Your Ty looks super awsome! I have a feeling that it may take quite a bit to make him into a bird dog but there are two things you can do with training for soft mouth.

    1) If he is confortable with keeping items in his mouth for long durations, you can use a harness that is wrapped around live birds. I think its called a spike harness. Its a harness with little aluminum stubs (not sharp) to keep the dog from biting down. Its simple and harmless but can teach a dog from learning to retrieve.

    2) Forced retrieve: There are different ways to do this but this, in my opinion is not good for dogs like NK. Its bsically using uncomfortable stimulation to teach a dog to hold an item in its mouth with a soft bite. I hate this but its a last ditch effort for dogs that will not hold a bird in its mouth. I think this would really ruin a NK so I highly suggest not to use it.

    As for bear hunting, yes bears are predators but I have yet to find a bear that will turn and fight a pack of dogs from the times I have hunted them with my friends. Bears will naturally turn away from loud noises and danger by treeing or hiding which is engraved into them from a young age. I have a few friends who are veteran bear hunters and bear hound trainers and I have yet to hear about a dog that was killed or badly injured by a bear.

    I'm sure some where there are dogs that are injured by bears but I think the chances are probably slim. Pigs on the other hand, are very unpredictable and very protective. When you get young dogs with little experience you some times get injuries and/or death. Dave I think you should try what works for you and Ty. If the bird thing doesn't work, try going back to training him for big game. You dont have to always need to run Ty with experienced dogs. Just spend as much time as you can with Ty out in the woods. Go bear hunting with Ty and just walk with him looking for bear. If Ty wants to go bark at a bear let him try it out.
  • edited November -1
    Gen,
    I agree, black bears will run & tree or hide almost always when given the chance. I 'm not saying that bear /dog confrontations are the norm, However bear hunting dogs" here" do commonly tangle with adult bears while chasing . If I get a chance ask my vet about how many bear hounds they stitched up last year . I found this http://minnesotasetters.com/Oct_2006_Bear_attack.html
  • edited August 2010
    @Dave S. - I hope that you don't really think I was implying that prey animals hunt predators. Obviously I was not saying that, that would be ridiculous.

    Originally you wrote:
    "Keep in mind that a bear is a predator ,not a prey animal so it is not designed to run away like a prey animal. chasing a preditor is against the ways of nature."

    My post was in response to your comment above - about chasing predators being "against the ways of nature"... I posted the above video because it is a video of water Buffalo chasing lions. That's an example of a prey animal chasing a predator. Really, whether or not the Buffalo are hunting the lion is irrelevant to the point. You wrote that "chasing a preditor is against the ways of nature" and I pointed out an example that contradicts your statement.

    Then you wrote:
    "Nature has a balance predators typically only kill in order to eat or teach their young survival skills.Predators & prey live in balance Just to give you one example ,notice how many prey animals there are in relation to natural predators. That is not because it is bi directional ,it's by natural design & birthing & survival rates."

    I'm sorry, but there have been multiple documented examples of predators killing "for sport" in the wild. Do a Google or YouTube search for "reflex killing", "surplus killing", or "non-consumptive killing".

    Here is a very well-know example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_and_the_Darkness
    "Although Patterson claimed the lions were responsible for up to 135 deaths, research undertaken in 2009 says that they likely ate about 35 people (however this figure does not take into account the people that were killed but not eaten by the animals).[3] The original lions are currently on display at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago."

    Then there is this famous video:



    *But I know what you will say about this video - take note tho, he said they are "often" joined by youngsters, but not always.

    Also, there is an example that happened right here in Taos - a pack of adult domestic dogs went around terrorizing livestock and killed many sheep, horses, cattle, and one llama. They didn't eat those animals, just killed them and left them.

    Domestic cats kill things for sport all the time - think about all the stories of them killing something and leaving somewhere (uneaten) for their humans to find. Also, our dogs kill lizards every time we hike - but they don't eat them.

    Where is the "balance" in these examples?

    What about humans? Are we balanced with nature? We are natural, and if anything we are the perfect example of their being no balance in nature.

    In regards to your point about there being more prey animals than predators - this simply reinforces the point I made that you are trying to debunk with your "Nature has a balance..." post. There are more prey animals than predators because, via evolution, most prey animals have evolved to form flocks/herds/shoals/schools, because there is strength in numbers - the sheer numbers of prey animals is derived from defensive strategy, shaped by evolution, not some "magical" balance. It's cause and effect on a very large (and slow) scale.

    Perhaps you feel this is all just an "interesting perspective" ... I feel it's a proven perspective, proven by science. I'd love to subscribe to a simple and romantic concept like a "natural balance"... but science and facts paint a very different picture, unfortunately.

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  • edited August 2010
    @ Brad, you now have a large population of hogs in NM so ya better get those dogs on those pesky critters!

    http://www.koat.com/r/24546432/detail.html

    @ Dave R, dude lets go visit Brad and chase hogs down in the Rio Grand river! Road trip time.
  • edited November -1
    wow! I didn't know about that! The Rio Grande is only a mile from our house! hmmm....
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