Definitely stick to frozen birds for a while. Avoid letting him get ahold of a wounded bird for a long time, as he will want to clamp down on it and finish the kill. Don't ever let him get competitive about a bird with another dog. Don't tug on the bird or bumper when trying to remove it from his mouth and don't try to remove it from his mouth immediately when he comes to you. Instead, make a fuss over him for a while and then push on it until he backs off, and wrap your hand around the bird.
I agree with Gen - I would not do any force fetch work yet. And if you resort to it, get some professional assistance.
I think you & I have an age old difference in beliefs,that has been going on for a very very long time . Even in evolution there is balance. I certainly value scientific studies & results, however I am not blinded by science. I believe we should agree to just let this one go.
@Dave S - I would rather be blinded by science and living in reality than be blinded by magic and oblivious to my reality or the reality of the world I live in. I have no issue with your beliefs and views, I just ask that you don't present them as fact when they are not.
@Gen, Sarah: Thanks for the suggestions! I'm definitely not interested in doing any forced retrieve work with Ty. If he's not into it, I'd rather get another dog than force him. I think it would be really hard to completely break him of his hard mouth, so what I'm planning to do is start work with scented bumpers. I want to teach him that things that smell like game are to be treated with a soft mouth, but other things are ok to chomp on. So we'll play tug with regular toys, but do practice retrieves with the bumpers. That way he gets to exercise his hard mouth but will also (hopefully) learn that birds are not chew toys. Just like working on his gun shyness, I'm sure it is going to take a LONG time, but I'm ok with that.
@Dave S.: As a scientist, I have to say your comment to Brad about being "blinded by science" is offensive. I think I have been more than patient with you commenting in all of my threads about training Tyson and making ill-informed negative comments. If you have a problem with what I'm doing, please stop being passive aggressive and get it out in the open so we can talk about it like men. Otherwise, please keep your comments constructive so I, as well as others, can learn from them.
Dave make sure you take tug o wars completely out of a bird dogs play time. Its a big no no that alot of us bird dog trainers always try to avoid. When Hana tries to tug on some thng I just stop playing to show her that its not fun to pull on things, although the other dogs once in a while will play tug with her. Once they get that in their mind to tug, the bite is going to get harder and it will make them think its ok to do it all the time. Just my opinion but if Ty is tugging on things and have a hard bite, he may not beable to break away from that at the age he's at right now. Either way Ty can become a excellent hunting dog bird or boar....or bear. You dont need a large pack of dogs to hunt big game, just look at the hunters in Finland using Laikas.
Just make sure Ty's not getting burnt out on training all the time. I see and hear about lots of NK hunting dogs not hunting because they are pushed to hunt at a young age. My friend who I got Taro from tells me that he usually starts at or after the first year. I'm sure Shigeru will probably have simillar school of thoughts. I think if I was in your shoes I would probably start training Ty chan to hunt bear since you probably have a larger population and larger public areas. I would just take him out on some spot and stalk bear hunts and let him give chase if he sees some thing and gradually move up to training him on bear pelts and letting him see dead bears. You can always contact a hound trainer to find out how they train their hounds.
I'm kind've interested in Ty's willingness to retrieve. I know the hard mouth is your number one concern, but it sounds to me like you have got a good plan and it's good that you are willing to compromise with him, i.e. chomping birds bad, chomping play toys ok. With my Kais stubborness, I find that compromise works the best and allows them to use their own mind while knowing when they need to listen to me.
On the whole retrieving side of bird hunting...does Tyson Chicken (yes, it is my name for him and always will be, hope I don't offend...ha ha) do well with bringing things to you? Koda would never retrieve. I can get Maymay to bring me balls, but only in the house, and sometimes she likes to go off in between bringing them back and toss the ball to herself for a while.
My interest is because when Maymay kills a squirrel, mole, mouse whatever I would like to teach her to bring them to me. She would rather keep them and guard them from Koda or try and take them to her crate to collect. I can get her to drop them with lots of praise, but sometimes it's a pain in the butt.
To all: I apologize for my comment to Dave S. It was a misunderstanding and an overreaction on my part. Dave S. and I have spoken off the forum and resolved things. I'm sorry for airing that issue in front of everybody.
@Gen: Thanks for the advice. After posting that, I read an article that said exactly that. Discouraging a hard mouth completely is the way to go, so I'll be doing that from now on.
@Tara: Tyson will retrieve if he doesn't have to compete with another dog for the object. That's mostly due to Joey's punkassery when Tyson first joined the family. When Joey is distracted, I'll toss a ball or toy and he'll chase. The instant he gets it, I start backing up and encouraging him to bring it to me. When he does, I praise the heck out of him and don't take the object. Most times he'll just drop it at my feet and want me to throw it again. The few times he hasn't brought it back, I'll walk over to him and take the toy or ball away...not bringing it back to me means the fun ends. When the bumpers I ordered arrive, I will kick it up a notch. I'm going to inject them with scents and start with really yummy treats like hot dogs. I'll start with a lick. He licks the bumper, he gets a piece of hot dog. Then I'll graduate to grabbing the bumper (while I'm still holding it). If he tugs, playtime is over and we start again later. If he puts his mouth on it and then lets go, he gets a hotdog. Then I'll start having him pick it up and drop it for a hotdog. Then get it from a few feet away. Then start to hide it. etc. I expect the process will take a few months, but we'll get there!
Wow Dave you have got the master plan. I'm excited to hear about how Tyson does. Please keep us posted. This sounds like it will be an amazing journey for the two of you.
Comments
Have a look at some various gun dog resources.
http://www.gundogmag.com/training//index5.html
Definitely stick to frozen birds for a while. Avoid letting him get ahold of a wounded bird for a long time, as he will want to clamp down on it and finish the kill. Don't ever let him get competitive about a bird with another dog. Don't tug on the bird or bumper when trying to remove it from his mouth and don't try to remove it from his mouth immediately when he comes to you. Instead, make a fuss over him for a while and then push on it until he backs off, and wrap your hand around the bird.
I agree with Gen - I would not do any force fetch work yet. And if you resort to it, get some professional assistance.
Have fun!
I think you & I have an age old difference in beliefs,that has been going on for a very very long time . Even in evolution there is balance. I certainly value scientific studies & results, however I am not blinded by science. I believe we should agree to just let this one go.
----
@Dave S.: As a scientist, I have to say your comment to Brad about being "blinded by science" is offensive. I think I have been more than patient with you commenting in all of my threads about training Tyson and making ill-informed negative comments. If you have a problem with what I'm doing, please stop being passive aggressive and get it out in the open so we can talk about it like men. Otherwise, please keep your comments constructive so I, as well as others, can learn from them.
Just make sure Ty's not getting burnt out on training all the time. I see and hear about lots of NK hunting dogs not hunting because they are pushed to hunt at a young age. My friend who I got Taro from tells me that he usually starts at or after the first year. I'm sure Shigeru will probably have simillar school of thoughts. I think if I was in your shoes I would probably start training Ty chan to hunt bear since you probably have a larger population and larger public areas. I would just take him out on some spot and stalk bear hunts and let him give chase if he sees some thing and gradually move up to training him on bear pelts and letting him see dead bears. You can always contact a hound trainer to find out how they train their hounds.
On the whole retrieving side of bird hunting...does Tyson Chicken (yes, it is my name for him and always will be, hope I don't offend...ha ha) do well with bringing things to you? Koda would never retrieve. I can get Maymay to bring me balls, but only in the house, and sometimes she likes to go off in between bringing them back and toss the ball to herself for a while.
My interest is because when Maymay kills a squirrel, mole, mouse whatever I would like to teach her to bring them to me. She would rather keep them and guard them from Koda or try and take them to her crate to collect. I can get her to drop them with lots of praise, but sometimes it's a pain in the butt.
@Gen: Thanks for the advice. After posting that, I read an article that said exactly that. Discouraging a hard mouth completely is the way to go, so I'll be doing that from now on.
@Tara: Tyson will retrieve if he doesn't have to compete with another dog for the object. That's mostly due to Joey's punkassery when Tyson first joined the family. When Joey is distracted, I'll toss a ball or toy and he'll chase. The instant he gets it, I start backing up and encouraging him to bring it to me. When he does, I praise the heck out of him and don't take the object. Most times he'll just drop it at my feet and want me to throw it again. The few times he hasn't brought it back, I'll walk over to him and take the toy or ball away...not bringing it back to me means the fun ends. When the bumpers I ordered arrive, I will kick it up a notch. I'm going to inject them with scents and start with really yummy treats like hot dogs. I'll start with a lick. He licks the bumper, he gets a piece of hot dog. Then I'll graduate to grabbing the bumper (while I'm still holding it). If he tugs, playtime is over and we start again later. If he puts his mouth on it and then lets go, he gets a hotdog. Then I'll start having him pick it up and drop it for a hotdog. Then get it from a few feet away. Then start to hide it. etc. I expect the process will take a few months, but we'll get there!