There are homes who would jump at the chance. I'm getting about one inquiry every 2 weeks about the breed from potential pet owners. But, my Shibas are my top priority so I won't do anything further until there is a better support system of enthusiasts in place and more information about the breed from current owners. To reiterate, Shibas are my top priority.
Back to breeding pairs that don't work out and placements, that's a good question. All of this stuff has to be planned out and lots of time and money need to go into it. Jiving with my dogs is a really big concern for me and I am not sure it is worth it in the end.
Like the Mino shiba - my ego would love to own one of those - but i'm not willing to travel back and forth to Japan to help the preservation effort there, so I'm best left admiring from afar.
If someone were to import Hokkaidos, I imagine the breeding plans would require either a ton of traveling or a lot of AI - right? Is either solution ultimately good for the breed?
As for health problems with the breeding pair and/or them not working out, I would love to share my home with a Hokkaido, breeding stock or not. So, there is always a home available for one or two here with me.
As for the AI... As far as I know, AI does not carry any health risks that are not already present with natural insemination. Granted, I have not done a lot of research on the matter... @brada1878 - I am sure you have done more research than most anyone here, any insight?
There are no real health issues with doing a basic vaginal AI, especially if it's done by a reproductive vet. Actually, there are probably fewer associated health risks with a vaginal AI than there are with a natural breeding.
I think there are small risks associated with a Transcervical AI as it requires a special tool and is more invasive, but again, if it's done by a reproductive specialist those risks should not be a factor.
With a Surgical AI there are all the typical risks associated with any other surgery where the dog needs to be sedated for the procedure.
AIs can be expensive when done by a reproductive specialist (Loa's surgical AI cost us around $3k when it was all said and done), so that has to be factored into the plan.
As for the question of using AIs in a preservation, and the effects it could have on the breed, if you have solid 6+ generation pedigree data and health data on both the sire and dam and have the ability to touch (meet in person) both the male and female, the risks are pretty minimal IMHO. But, if you remove any one of those things (being able to meet both dogs in person and/or pedigree info) the risk of the matching being a "bad mix" rises.
Also, if the 2 dogs can't interact with each other you don't get a feel for if the female agrees with you that the male is a good mate. I think that we should mos def listen to our females.
Having written that, when you're talking about a breed like the Hokka, where there are less than 20 representatives in all of North America, I think you have to allow some wiggle room on the matings. I mean, with so few dogs there is a good chance your female may not like any one the males in this country. LOL ... And, if you have accurate pedigree data, health tests, and can make judgements on the dog's temperaments (in person), then I think the risks are mitigated.
You know, dogs have good days and bad days too, so it is not outside the scope of possibility to assume a female is just "not in the mood" at the time you try to do a natural breeding (if she is rejecting the male)... Add to that the very small window of time you have to actually do a breeding... It's kinda hard, IMHO, to take the female's opinion as 100% accurate all the time.
An example - Luytiy and Masha - Masha was WAY into Luytiy the first breeding (litter) and wanted to murder him the second time we tried to breed them (for her second litter)... so, in that case, we just did a basic vaginal AI to minimize the stress for both the dogs involved (no need to create a learned aggressive response). Clearly Masha felt Luytiy was a GREAT match the first time around... what happened the next time? Did she change her mind? ...
Anyway, I think you have to consider all of the data, including what the female tells us, and how rare the breed is, when we are picking males and females for a matting.
Just a question about putting the dogs together during the heat... Do you keep them together all the time and let the dogs decide when to do it, or do you keep the dogs separate until the calendar or tests indicate that it's time?
Oh, I just remembered something. There's another reason why natural breedings are ideal. Sometimes the male can have the sperm but not have the proper equipment to deliver it. I know one case where the male could not tie a female but could still impregnate her. That little piece of knowledge doesn't come out through AI.
IMO, the safest compromise if you're going to use AI is to use a male or female that has already produced naturally.
@ayk - For a natural breeding we typically monitor the color of the female's discharge, when it is a light honey color we start to let them interact and see if the female is receptive. We do that a few times a day until she is.
If there are multiple males we will put the males and female together earlier than that and see which male she flirts with more. That would be the male we breed her to. Obviously we'd only put her with males we want her to breed with.
@ayk - Well, they have to preform a tie during collection (with the collection receptacle) so how would you not notice if the dog didn't have the needed equipment?
Also, if you are using a reproductive specialist (which I recommend), they check the quality and the motility of the dog's semen and so you learn more than you would in a natural breeding.
I'm not pushing for doing AIso, I just think its a bit of a stretch to say they are unhealthy or dangerous.
Yume definitely gets a lot of looks in Canada, but we haven't decided on whether we will spay her or not as of yet. Hokkaido's have a very high prey drive, but in Canada it is illegal to hunt deer or bear with a dog and even if it were I am not sure many people would. She has gone after deer several times and she has no fear of other animals whatsoever. It is incredible to see, but a bit scary as an owner as I am sure she would get her butt kicked by some bigger dogs or worse an elk, cougar or bear.
@jeffnkazuko - Well, spaying her will not change any of that. You need to keep her intact, there are so few of them in North America. That's my unsolicited opinion...
Haha well I may as well spill the beans now that Lindsay has :P I'm importing a working Hokkaido in the coming Spring/Summer, whenever a litter from the working kennel is available. The mating pair are used for bear and hog hunting when not being bred. Right now, to mesh well with the other 5 imports that are in the works, it'll be a female.
Those that know me on Facebook may have heard of my plans to purchase several dozen acres of rural land in southern Washington state (hour north of Portland). I'm going to be hunting wild boar with my pup in the same method that Shigeru does (active stalking, not baiting), and am looking at options for the setting up of a hog pen/fenced off acre or two to keep hogs for the purpose of training pups for tracking them. Lindsay and I have also talked about holding annual club meets on the future property for a weekend picnic, and testing 'tude on actual hogs + possible training workshops since @lindsayt is Ms. Flyball Obedience Trainer Extraordinaire. Lots of cool possibilities!
Part of the use for that land will be to start a kennel for a line of working/hunting Hokkaido, as the only one left in Japan is going to be shutting down in the near future, and it'd be a shame to allow the working bloodline to die out. The female will be a sister to the one that Brad is importing, and it looks good that three unrelated males will be imported over the next 6 months, so there will be a small, relatively diverse group of working blood Hokka to use as a base.
All support for HANA and the breeding program are very much appreciated, if you know people with Hokka who might be interested then definitely send them to this thread.
@jeffnkazuko I'm not sure if it went through, but check your inbox for a pm. It's not 100% solid right now whether I get a male or a female (still need to hear back from Shigeru on his perspective), but if a male is imported, and you're not opposed to it, then I think Yume would be a great breeding candidate! You're always welcome to bring Hana down to Washington state to do some hunting too
@jeffnkazuko I agree with Brad. Spaying will do absolutely nothing to curb her prey drive, and since she is a member of a rare breed, she should remain intact of she is healthy and does not have any nasty health problems. BUT that decision should be yours, since you own her.
This looks interesting, and promising! I'd like to learn more about it!
@cezieg That is awesome that you'll be getting a Hokkaido! And that's also great that you're thinking about moving to Washington. I think you should do it (totally biased). Washington is great. And since I'm in Washington (just the other side of the river from Portland in the 'Couve) it gives me a totally reasonable distance to drive to stalk your Hokka puppy once you get him/her. And I could even bring Meitou (my Hokka). Where abouts are you thinking about getting some land?
@WhoBitMe Oh they're actually solid plans to move to Portland, Gladstone to be exact, with the move date being March 1st! We'll be neighbors! My sister and her husband moved to Vancouver, WA this past February, and I've always wanted to get back out the West coast (Born in Walnut Creek, CA). The land is going to be somewhere within 45mins-1hour of Portland, so that'll mean 45mins'ish north of Vancouver. The mainstay of my growing personal business is going to be beekeeping education, so it has to be near the city. I can't wait! We'll have to get the pups together for a hike
I'm going to be housemates with a friend who has a Shiba girl, so if all the pups are together it'll be a pack of 2 Hokka, 1 Kai, and 1 Shiba. There'll be plenty jealous glances from all the other dog owners!
I am not thinking of spaying Yume to change her temperament, but if we aren't going to breed her maybe it would be better to do it. The vet sad it can rely reduce the possibility of some cancers ect..
I am not thinking of spaying Yume to change her temperament, but if we aren't going to breed her maybe it would be better to do it. The vet sad it can rely reduce the possibility of some cancers ect..
You may want to try searching some of the threads on the forum about spaying/neutering, pretty informative stuff. There are some studies that came out showing that while spaying can prevent some cancers, it may also increase others especially when done before the dog has had time to mature.
Being that there are other Hokka coming in, you may want to consider breeding her once before spaying her. Waiting until the age she's allowed to be bred (2yrs old) before spaying her could be better for her than spaying her at a younger age. The big cancer that vets bring up is mammary/breast cancer, but to be honest with all the intact bitches in breeding programs or as pets in this country, cases seem to not pop up as much as vets would like you to think.
Comments
If someone were to import Hokkaidos, I imagine the breeding plans would require either a ton of traveling or a lot of AI - right?
Is either solution ultimately good for the breed?
Coarse being in the Midwest it's far from you.
I'd love to have a Hokkaido and maybe work him or her with tracking.
As for the AI... As far as I know, AI does not carry any health risks that are not already present with natural insemination. Granted, I have not done a lot of research on the matter... @brada1878 - I am sure you have done more research than most anyone here, any insight?
I think there are small risks associated with a Transcervical AI as it requires a special tool and is more invasive, but again, if it's done by a reproductive specialist those risks should not be a factor.
With a Surgical AI there are all the typical risks associated with any other surgery where the dog needs to be sedated for the procedure.
AIs can be expensive when done by a reproductive specialist (Loa's surgical AI cost us around $3k when it was all said and done), so that has to be factored into the plan.
As for the question of using AIs in a preservation, and the effects it could have on the breed, if you have solid 6+ generation pedigree data and health data on both the sire and dam and have the ability to touch (meet in person) both the male and female, the risks are pretty minimal IMHO. But, if you remove any one of those things (being able to meet both dogs in person and/or pedigree info) the risk of the matching being a "bad mix" rises.
Also, if the 2 dogs can't interact with each other you don't get a feel for if the female agrees with you that the male is a good mate. I think that we should mos def listen to our females.
Having written that, when you're talking about a breed like the Hokka, where there are less than 20 representatives in all of North America, I think you have to allow some wiggle room on the matings. I mean, with so few dogs there is a good chance your female may not like any one the males in this country. LOL ... And, if you have accurate pedigree data, health tests, and can make judgements on the dog's temperaments (in person), then I think the risks are mitigated.
You know, dogs have good days and bad days too, so it is not outside the scope of possibility to assume a female is just "not in the mood" at the time you try to do a natural breeding (if she is rejecting the male)... Add to that the very small window of time you have to actually do a breeding... It's kinda hard, IMHO, to take the female's opinion as 100% accurate all the time.
An example - Luytiy and Masha - Masha was WAY into Luytiy the first breeding (litter) and wanted to murder him the second time we tried to breed them (for her second litter)... so, in that case, we just did a basic vaginal AI to minimize the stress for both the dogs involved (no need to create a learned aggressive response). Clearly Masha felt Luytiy was a GREAT match the first time around... what happened the next time? Did she change her mind? ...
Anyway, I think you have to consider all of the data, including what the female tells us, and how rare the breed is, when we are picking males and females for a matting.
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IMO, the safest compromise if you're going to use AI is to use a male or female that has already produced naturally.
All the information provided on AI is very interesting. Thanks to all those who posted about it.
If there are multiple males we will put the males and female together earlier than that and see which male she flirts with more. That would be the male we breed her to. Obviously we'd only put her with males we want her to breed with.
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Also, if you are using a reproductive specialist (which I recommend), they check the quality and the motility of the dog's semen and so you learn more than you would in a natural breeding.
I'm not pushing for doing AIso, I just think its a bit of a stretch to say they are unhealthy or dangerous.
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A long overdue webpage (not quite complete): http://www.hokkaidoken.com
Hope things go well. I'll try donate when I can.
Ugh, but the timing is all wrong. But if there is anything that I can do to help facilitate getting a breeding pair in the US, let me know!
Love the webpage!
Right now, to mesh well with the other 5 imports that are in the works, it'll be a female.
Those that know me on Facebook may have heard of my plans to purchase several dozen acres of rural land in southern Washington state (hour north of Portland). I'm going to be hunting wild boar with my pup in the same method that Shigeru does (active stalking, not baiting), and am looking at options for the setting up of a hog pen/fenced off acre or two to keep hogs for the purpose of training pups for tracking them. Lindsay and I have also talked about holding annual club meets on the future property for a weekend picnic, and testing 'tude on actual hogs + possible training workshops since @lindsayt is Ms. Flyball Obedience Trainer Extraordinaire. Lots of cool possibilities!
Part of the use for that land will be to start a kennel for a line of working/hunting Hokkaido, as the only one left in Japan is going to be shutting down in the near future, and it'd be a shame to allow the working bloodline to die out. The female will be a sister to the one that Brad is importing, and it looks good that three unrelated males will be imported over the next 6 months, so there will be a small, relatively diverse group of working blood Hokka to use as a base.
All support for HANA and the breeding program are very much appreciated, if you know people with Hokka who might be interested then definitely send them to this thread.
@jeffnkazuko I'm not sure if it went through, but check your inbox for a pm. It's not 100% solid right now whether I get a male or a female (still need to hear back from Shigeru on his perspective), but if a male is imported, and you're not opposed to it, then I think Yume would be a great breeding candidate! You're always welcome to bring Hana down to Washington state to do some hunting too
This looks interesting, and promising! I'd like to learn more about it!
And, well, I might be able to contribute somehow.
For donations:
http://www.hokkaidoken.com/Members_and_Contacts.html
I'm going to be housemates with a friend who has a Shiba girl, so if all the pups are together it'll be a pack of 2 Hokka, 1 Kai, and 1 Shiba. There'll be plenty jealous glances from all the other dog owners!
Being that there are other Hokka coming in, you may want to consider breeding her once before spaying her. Waiting until the age she's allowed to be bred (2yrs old) before spaying her could be better for her than spaying her at a younger age. The big cancer that vets bring up is mammary/breast cancer, but to be honest with all the intact bitches in breeding programs or as pets in this country, cases seem to not pop up as much as vets would like you to think.