@cezeig - WOOHOOO!!!! :-D I kind of had an idea, but it is awesome to have it solidified! I am so excited that this is happening. Lindsay and I talked a couple of years ago about me importing a Hokka female, but then things with Nola happened.
I am really hoping that in a couple of years I will be at a place (financially as well as health wise with my two Shibas) to be able to import and help establish the NA population. But in the meantime, I can absolutely live vicariously through you guys.
This is so cool! I'm glad this is working out, and it's great that there's an effort to preserve the working line Hokkas. I'm excited to read more about this as it happens!
As far as helping out... well... I will definitely say that nothing is impossible, and though now isn't the best time for me to help out with much, there's no telling what the future will hold.
@calia We won't spay her right away, but it would be very difficult to breed her at the moment. I figure by the time she is old enough we will both be working and think it wod be very hard to find the time to take of the pups ect.. I am not ruling it out, but too much trouble at the moment.
@jeffnkazuko I've known people who worked full-time and lived alone and managed to raise a single litter without too much trouble, so especially with a rare breed--it's worth considering. Definitely not a "oh you have to do this!" but just a "it's apparently not as impossible as it sounds." That said... I've never done it, so I don't know the logistics of making it work or if it's horribly stressful and so on.
It's about an 11 hour from you to me. I am set up for puppies and would be happy to whelp and raise the litter for you. Just a thought. She is a really beautiful dog...
@jeffnkazuko That'd be the nice part of having an official club set up, the pups only need 8 weeks. So if, after thinking about it, you could cope with her staying with a kennel (@lindsayt for example) then you would have none of the responsibility while still being an important contributor
@Saya Saya would love the boar I think! @Sunyata Virginia is a little far, but if you ever hit the PacNW it's ideal mountain biking Even more reason to come visit! @omgtain That'd be cool to have regular meet ups. How's your pup doing? Last I remember he was 14 weeks and super attached I think, but never saw his picture! Btw, you should really really really consider a Hokkaido, because otherwise you and @lindsayt won't be friends (no pressure)
@cezieg Sounds like a awesome plan, I would definitely make the drive to put my kishus to the test. One thing to consider though, make sure you check your local laws on transporting feral hogs.
I had a bay pen in my yard not too long ago and the only legal way to transport hogs is buy purchasing them from a Eurasian boar farm. I'm not sure what the feral hog population is like in Washington but I believe it is illegal to trap and transport live feral hogs on most of the west coast states (I believe it's under federal title 14 code).
If you need help with pen designed and reputable Eurasian board breeders I have a long list of info on that I can share.
But big congrats on getting closer to your goal on getting a working Ainu.
@cezieg Hey there. Yeah its been quite awhile ha.. Arkane (the pup you're referring to) was put to sleep last month. ): He had quite a bit of health problems and was constantly sick, and upon x-raying and such had an enlarged heart & some other 'funny' looking things.. Bad days started to over run the good ones and although it was a tough decision it was probably the best we could do..
I love Hokkaidos and my goal: this great breed be more popular in US and -of course- here in Europe!
So...I'm thinking about a donation... sending a male pup to you from my future litter :-) I would be very happy if one of my pups could go to some shows in US :-)
We have a 7 month old male Hokkaido that we got from Shigeru about 3 months ago.
I email a little bit with Shigeru the night before our appointment to get our little guy nutered and we decided to put it on hold and see if he could be a possible stud for the Hana project. My husband and I feel strongly about preserving them and getting the breed more recognized here in the US. We live in Orange County, CA and we get a lot of people stopping to meet him.
Holy cow, share working Hokka plans and get things among four people in the works to import some and suddenly...
@Krisz Wow that is incredibly generous of you! I've followed what you've done with Seta since you first posted that you had made plans to have her imported. She's a beautiful girl and will certainly make some great puppies with a strong young sire like Maru
I am cheerfully donating art/drawing services and an auction print to the HANA Project for the long term prospect of keeping a pup for HANA in several years. (My dog spots are full, and it's okay for startup ease if HANA is a PNW thing and can easily cooperate... Casey and I will kick off HANA East with a pair when it makes sense to do so.)
I think that we can learn from the Shikoku about how to present HANA. Not as a few breeders selling pet puppies, but as a unified breeding Project with goals, bylaws and a plan. You (the curious pet owner) dont go to HANA to find a rare, beautiful pet, you go to HANA to be part of the project- warts and all. Expectations must be set for members/owners/keepers- and it can be done from the Get-Go with HANA. We can do it right.
I certainly don;t know everything, BUT I do see how certain terms are misunderstood by the Public and Perpetuated by the breed community- esp in shikoku, but applies to ALL NK. For example "Rare" means what we talked about in the "realities of breeding medium NK" thread- but until they are educated- and the NK Forum is the only place for that now, but I would encourgae a certain tone on any breeder websites (or not having breeder websites- its ALL HANA until certain project goals have been met)- what people hear has nothing to do with quality or linebreeding or relative severity of health compromises in a limited gene pool. what they hear and want to believe is 'Nobody else I know has one, exotic'. Likewise "Primitive" - what it really means in terms of temperament and training, is not what people 'hear' ('I always wanted a wolf!'). 'Natural Treasure of Japan' sounds like the dogs are specially cared for and protected- but people need to expect the truth about conditions for foundation dogs, as Shigeru explained and that depth of health knowledge is not going to go very far back for now. The HANA project needs time and generations to do its work before we can break off and behave like other breeders, if we ever do.
If HANA and its cooperating community present themselves more like a scientific preservation PROJECT (kinda like a guide dog breeding project) and not as a loose group of breeders you can just buy a rare puppy from because you want something cool and have the money to buy it, I think a lot of what shikoku has taught us will not be wasted!
HANA would avoid misconceptions by the Public and Dog People and serve the breed and the diversity effort best if it is formed and maintained more like a well-run non-profit breeding project and less like a chamber of commerce uniting and promoting individual breeders.
I also think it makes sense to be clear about the role of Project dog-keepers - ie: Expect if you participate in HANA to keep your HANA Hokkaido intact for x time, then do xyz tests, and travel for breeding, etc. Additionally, is an owner able to work, show, train for performance events etc.? People have to give back. In the NW, you guys may be able to have meets and shows, whereas someone in the east may need to expect to go to NIPPO Classic if they have a Project pup. I, for one, cannot promise to do lots of shows or flyball, that stuff just ins';t here- but I can train a pup for hiking and winter sports like joring, etc. and report on what they do when we find bear tracks
@wrybindle I really like these ideas and concepts of PR and open record keeping :
"present themselves more like a scientific preservation PROJECT (kinda like a guide dog breeding project)"
just a quick fyi, guide dog projects are usually are set up as a non profit and the dogs are registered in the name of the organization. Only when the dogs have been trained, tested and a final decision is made to the next level is the dog either moved on to a person in need or back to the family that trained it with ownership turned over.
Logistically these type of issues have to be worked out if things are loosely following that plan of action. Certainly it's doable : )
Since I am between some of you here on the east coast I can supply a lot of help in the training and acclimation dept. given I have access to many resources.
I think the east coast has a lot to offer too in solid foundation building : )
@WrylyBrindle - Excellent post and really great concrete ideas for HANA. I am really excited to see this project get off the ground and am so glad that so many people are interested.
I know that I was intrigued by the Hokkaido shortly after I joined the forum (back in 2008!). And then I got even more intrigued when I met one. It has been in the back of my mind that I wanted to import one for several years, and I was just about ready to start getting really serious about it when Nola got sick and drained my "Hokkaido Fund" and then some.
@cezieg - We had initially planned a west coast MTB vacation for this year, but due to some unexpected financial expenses have put it on hold until next Summer/Fall.
WRT the guide dog project comment, I mean mostly the way people understand that its a breeding project with a purpose, and while you *can* approach one about getting a 'dropout' dog as a pet, everyone knows that the main purpose is NOT to produce pets for people and the breeding (and training and service) goals come first. Maybe HANA does own all the dogs it imports- that's deeper than I can talk about, not being an organizer.
But for interested owners, the questionnaire to the HANA Project- distinct from to the bitch-owner/breeder- might ask different/additional questions than is typical of pet/show breeders. Those desiring a neutered pet hokkaido should expect retired dogs, for example. And all of whatever is set up needs to be done with an eye toward goals and stages- it's no "No, you can never have a pet hokka pup"- it's in Gen3 (or whatever) we can more freely pethome some. The details are for more experienced people than me to work out. But I think perception control will be helpful- people need to know 'Getting involved in a Rare breed means if you expect two generations of hip scores before you feel secure about buying a healthy puppy, then keep an eye on us till we get to that point and come back!" Work in Progress.
I think we need to speak openly and frankly on our Forum too about what it really, truly means for a non-kennel/nonbreeder to keep an intact dog for a preservation project. (and we can learn from the Chinook project- they do this too. On their club site you can look up who has the stud dogs?) Esp with all the distance involved- I am learning as I go about what it means to the breed that I keep Matsu intact, for example. I can't just walk him over to Brad's house in Colorado (from Vermont) for a date with a girl on any given wednesday.
It's not just about pack cohesion and male behaviors, there is also how to connect with bitch owners looking for a good male when he's old enough, (assuming he is a good candidate with qualities to pass on), what to learn about testing him for things later (he's only 10 months old ATM) and what is customary in travel and fees, and how to keep dogs safe and make breeding enjoyable for them. It's being available when the bitch is in season, for a few days. I think this stuff should be shared so people know what the possibilities are before they just agree to it, and before they neuter rare dogs. I regret spaying Juno, but that's where I was at that time- I didnt know as much as I felt I needed to know to consider breeding her realistically. Didnt know Id get Matsu, or what good candidate males were in my region, etc. This is all fixable stuff with education and expectation setting.
Thank you @wrylybrindle and SnF, and a huge thanks to @krisz for such an amazingly generous offer. I really appreciate Chrys' points, and am trying as we speak to incorporate some of this on the webpage. I really really like the direction you are going with your ideas, and I agree that is the "tone" I would like to establish from the beginning. I really co-owning, and I feel that getting non-profit status is the way to go.
I personally love where you guys are going with this, and I think you have a great group of people to truly help you succeed. Going to just +1,000,000 everything Chrys @WrylyBrindle said as it echos my thoughts to a T.
If there is anything I can do to help you all get off the ground and get going, let me know. ~
@WrylyBrindle Great post Chrys! I think you definitely covered a good majority of the intention, as well as brought up some good questions. I can only speak for myself, but as far as I know it's Brad and I focused on the kennel'ing, so if his Kai program is anything to go by then being "open source" is a major part of it. Completely up front with health issues, open & documented breedings, and non-existent stud fees until the breed is established (even after, reasonable, non-inhibiting fees are acceptable imo). The idea being to make the breed approachable, while, at the very least, offsetting costs for members involved with breeding.
Instead it's altruism, community, and dog health/functionality as the immediate focus, while maintaining the various coat "flavors". I was supposed to have a club charter draft done tonight, but completely forgot about the monthly beekeeper association meeting, so I've been gone from 7am until about 30mins ago
@StaticNfuzz Yup. This is a project for those interested in the breed through to those interested in breeding. Although it certainly won't be quite "scientific", to be honest. As Brad was discussing with us earlier, the more selective and restrictive the breeding, the more restrictive the gene pool becomes. The main priority in working/hunting breeding is that the dog is healthy, fit, and has the the ability to do it's job. Regardless though, the side effect of breeding is that more than one puppy is produced. So they'll need homes, even if they aren't good hunters. But, there will certainly be plans made for proper genetic distancing, coat color retention (so as not to eliminate coat types), and "fixing" health issues that show. Thanks so much for offering your help btw! By the looks of it, the main group of people will be on the West Coast, so East Coast assistance is a huge boon!
@Sangmort 82 collars and tags please *snap snap* :P
I agree 100% with you @WrylyBrindle. What you've said is what I've thought a preservation effort should be, and it looks like this is all moving in the right direction. I think ideas like this should be used in the Shikoku preservation effort.
In a few years when I'm graduated and settled down I'd like to import and co-own as well. Until then, I'm a pretty good crocheter (mostly NK themed things) and I could crochet or needle felt Hokkaido dolls/toys that could be raffled or auctioned off as fundraising for the importing if you guys want.
@Araks That would be fantastic! We've been discussing things we could make for a HANA raffle that would help us with the import costs and such (it's really expensive haha). Osy may do collars, I can do paracord leashes/bracelets/collars, some crochet/needle felt would be great to go along!
To raise money, I'm willing to donate a hunt or two for a auction. The hunt can be an animal of choice and I can furnish most all the equipment for the successful winner as long as they have a legal ca hunting license and appropriate tags which I can help them get.
Comments
I might have to someday make trip to Washington to meet them. Boar pen be so cool too.
I am really hoping that in a couple of years I will be at a place (financially as well as health wise with my two Shibas) to be able to import and help establish the NA population. But in the meantime, I can absolutely live vicariously through you guys.
As far as helping out... well... I will definitely say that nothing is impossible, and though now isn't the best time for me to help out with much, there's no telling what the future will hold.
We won't spay her right away, but it would be very difficult to breed her at the moment. I figure by the time she is old enough we will both be working and think it wod be very hard to find the time to take of the pups ect.. I am not ruling it out, but too much trouble at the moment.
It's about an 11 hour from you to me. I am set up for puppies and would be happy to whelp and raise the litter for you. Just a thought. She is a really beautiful dog...
Maybe I'll have to get in on this with you guys, hah. Sounds exciting.
I'm in Puyallup, so if you want to go in on this, it would be super convenient (no pressure tho).
@Saya Saya would love the boar I think!
@Sunyata Virginia is a little far, but if you ever hit the PacNW it's ideal mountain biking
@omgtain That'd be cool to have regular meet ups. How's your pup doing? Last I remember he was 14 weeks and super attached I think, but never saw his picture! Btw, you should really really really consider a Hokkaido, because otherwise you and @lindsayt won't be friends (no pressure)
I had a bay pen in my yard not too long ago and the only legal way to transport hogs is buy purchasing them from a Eurasian boar farm. I'm not sure what the feral hog population is like in Washington but I believe it is illegal to trap and transport live feral hogs on most of the west coast states (I believe it's under federal title 14 code).
If you need help with pen designed and reputable Eurasian board breeders I have a long list of info on that I can share.
But big congrats on getting closer to your goal on getting a working Ainu.
Anyways, heres our youtube for video spam & Dogster for photo spam!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tainzel
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/1278377
However we have a very exciting addition coming in a few months, so the Hokk will have to wait a bit. :P
@lindsayt
If I can do anything to help I will definitely try.
Question though, do you herd at ewe-topia?
I love Hokkaidos and my goal: this great breed be more popular in US and -of course- here in Europe!
So...I'm thinking about a donation... sending a male pup to you from my future litter :-)
I would be very happy if one of my pups could go to some shows in US :-)
Pedigree of the pup will be:
http://www.hokkaido-pedigree.com/testmating.php?dam=63246&sire=63423
xoxo
I email a little bit with Shigeru the night before our appointment to get our little guy nutered and we decided to put it on hold and see if he could be a possible stud for the Hana project. My husband and I feel strongly about preserving them and getting the breed more recognized here in the US. We live in Orange County, CA and we get a lot of people stopping to meet him.
@Krisz Wow that is incredibly generous of you! I've followed what you've done with Seta since you first posted that you had made plans to have her imported. She's a beautiful girl and will certainly make some great puppies with a strong young sire like Maru
I think that we can learn from the Shikoku about how to present HANA. Not as a few breeders selling pet puppies, but as a unified breeding Project with goals, bylaws and a plan. You (the curious pet owner) dont go to HANA to find a rare, beautiful pet, you go to HANA to be part of the project- warts and all. Expectations must be set for members/owners/keepers- and it can be done from the Get-Go with HANA. We can do it right.
I certainly don;t know everything, BUT I do see how certain terms are misunderstood by the Public and Perpetuated by the breed community- esp in shikoku, but applies to ALL NK. For example "Rare" means what we talked about in the "realities of breeding medium NK" thread- but until they are educated- and the NK Forum is the only place for that now, but I would encourgae a certain tone on any breeder websites (or not having breeder websites- its ALL HANA until certain project goals have been met)- what people hear has nothing to do with quality or linebreeding or relative severity of health compromises in a limited gene pool. what they hear and want to believe is 'Nobody else I know has one, exotic'. Likewise "Primitive" - what it really means in terms of temperament and training, is not what people 'hear' ('I always wanted a wolf!'). 'Natural Treasure of Japan' sounds like the dogs are specially cared for and protected- but people need to expect the truth about conditions for foundation dogs, as Shigeru explained and that depth of health knowledge is not going to go very far back for now. The HANA project needs time and generations to do its work before we can break off and behave like other breeders, if we ever do.
If HANA and its cooperating community present themselves more like a scientific preservation PROJECT (kinda like a guide dog breeding project) and not as a loose group of breeders you can just buy a rare puppy from because you want something cool and have the money to buy it, I think a lot of what shikoku has taught us will not be wasted!
HANA would avoid misconceptions by the Public and Dog People and serve the breed and the diversity effort best if it is formed and maintained more like a well-run non-profit breeding project and less like a chamber of commerce uniting and promoting individual breeders.
I also think it makes sense to be clear about the role of Project dog-keepers - ie: Expect if you participate in HANA to keep your HANA Hokkaido intact for x time, then do xyz tests, and travel for breeding, etc. Additionally, is an owner able to work, show, train for performance events etc.? People have to give back. In the NW, you guys may be able to have meets and shows, whereas someone in the east may need to expect to go to NIPPO Classic if they have a Project pup. I, for one, cannot promise to do lots of shows or flyball, that stuff just ins';t here- but I can train a pup for hiking and winter sports like joring, etc. and report on what they do when we find bear tracks
"present themselves more like a scientific preservation PROJECT (kinda like a guide dog breeding project)"
just a quick fyi, guide dog projects are usually are set up as a non profit and the dogs are registered in the name of the organization. Only when the dogs have been trained, tested and a final decision is made to the next level is the dog either moved on to a person in need or back to the family that trained it with ownership turned over.
Logistically these type of issues have to be worked out if things are loosely following that plan of action. Certainly it's doable : )
Since I am between some of you here on the east coast I can supply a lot of help in the training and acclimation dept. given I have access to many resources.
I think the east coast has a lot to offer too in solid foundation building : )
Snf
I know that I was intrigued by the Hokkaido shortly after I joined the forum (back in 2008!). And then I got even more intrigued when I met one. It has been in the back of my mind that I wanted to import one for several years, and I was just about ready to start getting really serious about it when Nola got sick and drained my "Hokkaido Fund" and then some.
@cezieg - We had initially planned a west coast MTB vacation for this year, but due to some unexpected financial expenses have put it on hold until next Summer/Fall.
But for interested owners, the questionnaire to the HANA Project- distinct from to the bitch-owner/breeder- might ask different/additional questions than is typical of pet/show breeders. Those desiring a neutered pet hokkaido should expect retired dogs, for example. And all of whatever is set up needs to be done with an eye toward goals and stages- it's no "No, you can never have a pet hokka pup"- it's in Gen3 (or whatever) we can more freely pethome some. The details are for more experienced people than me to work out. But I think perception control will be helpful- people need to know 'Getting involved in a Rare breed means if you expect two generations of hip scores before you feel secure about buying a healthy puppy, then keep an eye on us till we get to that point and come back!" Work in Progress.
I think we need to speak openly and frankly on our Forum too about what it really, truly means for a non-kennel/nonbreeder to keep an intact dog for a preservation project. (and we can learn from the Chinook project- they do this too. On their club site you can look up who has the stud dogs?) Esp with all the distance involved- I am learning as I go about what it means to the breed that I keep Matsu intact, for example. I can't just walk him over to Brad's house in Colorado (from Vermont) for a date with a girl on any given wednesday.
It's not just about pack cohesion and male behaviors, there is also how to connect with bitch owners looking for a good male when he's old enough, (assuming he is a good candidate with qualities to pass on), what to learn about testing him for things later (he's only 10 months old ATM) and what is customary in travel and fees, and how to keep dogs safe and make breeding enjoyable for them. It's being available when the bitch is in season, for a few days. I think this stuff should be shared so people know what the possibilities are before they just agree to it, and before they neuter rare dogs. I regret spaying Juno, but that's where I was at that time- I didnt know as much as I felt I needed to know to consider breeding her realistically. Didnt know Id get Matsu, or what good candidate males were in my region, etc. This is all fixable stuff with education and expectation setting.
If there is anything I can do to help you all get off the ground and get going, let me know.
Instead it's altruism, community, and dog health/functionality as the immediate focus, while maintaining the various coat "flavors". I was supposed to have a club charter draft done tonight, but completely forgot about the monthly beekeeper association meeting, so I've been gone from 7am until about 30mins ago
@StaticNfuzz Yup. This is a project for those interested in the breed through to those interested in breeding. Although it certainly won't be quite "scientific", to be honest. As Brad was discussing with us earlier, the more selective and restrictive the breeding, the more restrictive the gene pool becomes. The main priority in working/hunting breeding is that the dog is healthy, fit, and has the the ability to do it's job. Regardless though, the side effect of breeding is that more than one puppy is produced. So they'll need homes, even if they aren't good hunters. But, there will certainly be plans made for proper genetic distancing, coat color retention (so as not to eliminate coat types), and "fixing" health issues that show. Thanks so much for offering your help btw! By the looks of it, the main group of people will be on the West Coast, so East Coast assistance is a huge boon!
@Sangmort 82 collars and tags please *snap snap* :P
In a few years when I'm graduated and settled down I'd like to import and co-own as well. Until then, I'm a pretty good crocheter (mostly NK themed things) and I could crochet or needle felt Hokkaido dolls/toys that could be raffled or auctioned off as fundraising for the importing if you guys want.
This is all so exciting!
@Araks also great idea I love crochet type things and needle felt dolls/toys.