@shibamistress - I think "hostility" may be a bit exaggerated, or perhaps my comments come off more harsh than I mean them. You can have your list, and share it with people, I don't see it as that big of a deal and I agree that it would help new comers. I just think the demands end up being a marketing platform for mediocre breeders. I've seen it a lot in a lot of different breeds (including MOST of the NK breeds) and I think a visit to a kennel and hours of conversation with a breeder is way more of an effective tool in choosing your breeder than a list. A list kinda pushes people away from that personal buyer-breeder relationship as it gives qualities to "shop for" instead of having to use real investigative efforts to learn about a breeder. In short, the list becomes a cop-out... Like: "Well their websites says they do health tests and the dogs are titled, how would I have known..."
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@lindsayt - That's a lot of "musts". It would be hard to quantify most of that list, unfortunately. You may know breeders that fit that list perfectly (as do I), but that list doesn't make it so a puppy buyer can find those breeders easily. I'm not saying I don't agree with the list (I do), but I know if I was a first time puppy buyer that list would stress me out.
The quickest way to make a new puppy buyer ignore a list and do an impulse buy is to make the list (seemingly) impossible for them to use.
About rescue, I assume you heard about Stacey helping pull that CO in NC from a kill shelter and how that all went down? (This certain rescue group threatening Stacey's foster home)... This is the type of thing I base my experience off of - it may be all "we are the world" in Shikoku, Shiba, and Basenji but I don't think that's the norm in dogdom. But, as you know, old Brad is a bitter bitter dogman. :oT
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@curlytails - Yes, of course I agree that breeders and rescues should work together. If you are reading my comments as me arguing against that type of concept then I think you are not understanding me (or my words are being twisted). Historically I have stated on this very forum that I would like to see rescue groups and breeders work better together.
That is a pretty daunting list looking back at it. Trust me, I would love to spill the beans on the bad breeders in this breed in a public forum and write it all out plainly for pet people about why one should specifically not buy from such and such breeder, but I would be sued and many or most I am thinking of have more money than I do and lawyers to boot.
I guess that only leaves lists like this that basically serve to exclude practices that I know those particular breeders do that I find so unethical and harmful, without naming names. This is definitely not a "we are the world" breed by the way, lol, and truthful information has to be earned or learned the hard way if people want to take short cuts without doing real research.
I know Stace mentioned something about that, but I was buying chickens when she did and I spaced out on the deets! I'll have to call her again. CO rescue really sucks. It's cut throat and everyone hates each other outside of their cliques, and the breed is so misrepresented in mainstream dog fancy, I don't know if I would ever take another CO rescue.
You have some good points in your "must"-list Lidsayt. BUT have you bred any litter (I'm not so familiar in this forum who are breeders and who aren't)? A breeder never can guarantee health for the puppy! It is all down in genetics and it always doesn't guarantee healthy puppy even the parents are healthy. For example, one of our Schipperke's offspring has epilepsy. His parents have been healthy all their live (both the dam and sire lives with us). Also puppy's aunt (also living with us) and grandparents are healthy. And right now my mum and I are having a real pain in the ass from one puppy owner who is going to summon us for selling her "sick" puppy. Puppy's parents knees, hips and eyes are checked because our breed club recommend to do these test for breeding dog BUT they aren't necessary. And now this puppy has 2/2 elbows which means that elbow joints haven't ossify. In some breeds this is inherited but it's inheritance is unclear and you can't right away say that it's inherited. In healthy things the new owner can so easily destroy healthy puppy! In this case the new owner didn't follow our feeding directions, she had fed sunflower seeds etc. for the growing puppy. And every other puppy from this litter are healthy.
"must have contract with full refund or replacement if pup does not turn out" Culture difference between here. I just want to scream why people would like to refund ALIVE animal, dog isn't a bike which you can take back when you don't like it anymore. Dog is lifelong commitment even it woudn't full your own desire. Ife hasn't full my expectation but I never ever would take her back. But like I said culture difference...
I agree with you lindsayt. It would be so easy to just list out the less desirable breeders for all new puppy buyers to see, but like you said, they have alot more money than me for lawyers.
@lindsayt - http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13 Wouldn't it be interesting if something like this existed for the dog world...The Fauna classifieds Board of Inquiry is where buyers post their reviews and experience of buying a reptile from a breeder, though I wonder how much more insane dog people can be compared to reptile people.
@Brad yeah, probably hostility was overstating it, but because I was just reading all those posts by inexperienced people buying shibas from puppy mills, I was getting really frustrated with all the criticisms of the idea of a list. While I totally understand the problems people have raised, I kept thinking but people need something to help them. (And sometimes, if the breeder is far away, visiting them is not an option).
@Mirka, actually the health guarantee is fairly standard for puppy contracts in the US. Including the replacement thing. I doubt very much many people replace their pups, but it is fairly common in contracts. And Lindsay breeds Shibas
@Lindsay, I think that list is pretty good actually, even if it is long. I've been in the process of writing a blog about choosing a breeder (part two) so you've given me some more things to think about, as has this whole discussion.
Question: do dog people really sue others for saying things about their kennels? I assume it must happen or people wouldn't be so wary of it, but....Damn. Usually people threaten to sue but don't (once they realize how much it costs to actually get a defamation case going, and how unlikely they are to get anything out of it) but I guess people have really done this?
@brada1878, No, I wasn't reading your comments as saying that rescues and breeders should not work together. I was just pushing for a more optimistic assessment of the overall relationship between rescue and breeders, since you seemed a little down in your description of the current state of affairs. Yes, you do sound a little bitter at "dogdom" whereas I guess I'm more chipper about the potential for balance... I know it's not a balanced system and there is constant tension. Nevertheless, it sounds like rescue could stand to be allied with more breeders like you, I just hope you weren't foreclosing that possibility since I'm not familiar with your experiences on that matter.
@MirkaM, I think the idea behind a lifetime health guarantee assumes both that the breeder will do their best to screen for any major genetic diseases understanding that even screening isn't 100% (but it's a damn good start), and that again, the breeder's affirmation of responsibility ensures that the dog will always have someplace to go. If the dog is diagnosed with, say, glaucoma or Progressive Retinal Atrophy years after puppyhood, and the owners who have certainly bonded with their dog by that time suddenly find themselves in dire financial or personal straits and cannot afford the medical care for a major medical condition they did not expect, they don't have to leave the dog in a lurch. Owner will work together with breeder to find help for the dog that they BOTH care about, instead of abandoning him. Certainly, the specifics and the relationship between breeder and owner will vary, but this is how I have seen it play out before. It's a statement that the breeder cares about the lifetime health of their dog.
@Calia, well, there's this site... but no, I would not expect that to be the norm across all dogs or all breeds. I think this is where Brad's idea of a business model for dog breeding would intersect, perhaps? The Better Business Bureau lists and rates some puppy mills as well, but it's not a particularly effective category.
I dunno. I've wondered about this too. I think dog people can a little crazy... vet reviews on sites like Yelp, for example, are notoriously fickle, even if everyone believes they're being "truthful" in their assessment. But on the other hand, I think the more the Internet enables puppy sales on a totally different scale, the more the Internet can and should be mobilized to provide information about breeders. It's a medium that can work both ways -- for the benefit of the breeder and for the buyer.
I've noticed that Shiba people do seem more reticent to name their sources, for whatever reason. Basenji people (sorry if you're sick of these comparisons! =]) seem more likely to prod about kennel names though. There are fewer B's out there and so it's kind of a thrill to bump into others who are "related" by their dogs. I've noticed you folks on the Nihon ken side are also more willing to name breeders when it comes to the rarer breeds. Shiba folks are mum though, for whatever reason.
Don't you stand by what you produce? I'm looking at anywhere from three to five generations of LIVING dogs behind my breeding dogs that I can meet anytime and see in person how their health is at 11 years and older. All healthy active seniors. Yes, I will guarantee lifetime health as there is absolutely no reason for me not to be confident in the health of my dogs and those behind them.
I can see with the truely rare breeds whose parents and grands are in the mountains in Japan, you as a breeder would not feel as comfortable doing that since you can't see them daily. I see nothing wrong with a binding promise of a breeder taking back a dog if things dont turn out or if the owner drops the ball. It is in the dogs best interest, and in my breeding contracts for dogs I have purchased, it was expected.
There are some crack pots in Shibas who threaten legal action all the time as a shield when ever their bad behavior is challenged or they are slandered in print. They don't get away with it for long because reputation gets you everywhere and they will be isolated and shunned by reputable breeders.
Places like Icewind and RPK don't care about slander since they don't have a good reputation to uphold to begin with, and they dont show, which is why they can continue breeding and selling guilt free. A citation by AKC doesn't do much when someone is already banned from reputable dog acitivites.
If a "reputable" person is written up, word gets around fast in a quiet fashion and no one will do business with them which immediately damages their reputation at shows and in the fancy. Public slander of a reputable person (a printed statement from another breeder) can damage sales dramatically and so people are careful to make their complaints more private as that would be an instant lawsuit otherwise. It's also in bad taste because it then appears you are just trying to make yourself look like a better buying option.
Of course I stand and thereby I write to sales contract that puppy must take to hip, knee, elbow and eye test when the puppy is old enough (if owners don't have afford to them then I'll pay them). But in healthy issues also other things than just genes have an influence to the dog. And even if you give the lifetime guarantee you can't know what kind of food or exercise the puppy gets. Like I said in my example.
Question: do dog people really sue others for saying things about their kennels?
Yes, they do. They will also sue if a breed club kicks them out. Even if they don't have a strong case, the cost of litigation is enough to keep people mum.
Going way back to escapees and accidental litters, I think I may owe you an apology for putting you on the spot. Guess I'm hypersensitive about even one accidental litter because in Jindos I've known a person that claimed to have *3* accidental litters, one after another, and there was a chunk of people willing to overlook that.
It's good that people are learning from each other's oops. Just a FYI though that a closed kennel with a closed cover is not going to be sufficient for a determined breeder.
Dog have bred through fences before. You probably already know this, but just in case other people don't, dogs don't require a tie to impregnate a female.
Dogs have climbed a female's kennel, gotten on top of the cover, and collapsed the cover.
Females have unlatched gates even though they've never shown the interest or the ability before. They were just respectful of the owner's wishes until they had a different, more pressing priority.
The better set-ups are going to be the ones that offer a double barrier. ie. A closed kennel in a garage or barn. Tractor Supply used to have a commerical that was jokingly about preserving the honor of a female dog that just went to heat. I thought it was actually a decent set-up with a kennel inside a fenced area with angled bars on top. Wish I could find that on youtube to share.
For JennAB : 1. what types of temperament testing and evaluations do you perform when considering studs and bitches for breeding stock ? 2. which temperament testing methods do you use for the litters and how are pups socialized ?
@brada1878 said "When it comes to picking a breeder I think a potential owner should pick a breeder based on how comfortable they are with that person and their (breeding) goals."
This is very true, but I want to impress this is not something you can do in a few phone calls or a couple visits... most people are in a huge hurry to acquire their next dog and don't really have the time or bother to take the time to really check out a breeder.This can takes months even years to establish.
Just because they have a bunch of titles or own more of that breed than other breeders does not make them reputable.Talking with them and listening to what is being said about them and researching if these things are true or not is the only way to find out if a breeder is responsible and reputable. Just because they hand you a list of referance of happy puppy owners does not mean they are reputable. Do you think as a breeder they are going to give you the names of anyone who is unhappy with them as a breeder?
I think a general list is a good place to use as a referance and some things are flexible on that list, each person really needs to decide what is the most important to them.
I don't beleive that just because someone does all the right health testing or has a bunch of champions this makes them a reputable breeder. Learning who is a reputable breeder takes time and getting to know each breeder. A breeder who honors their contracts is a reputable breeder. I always suggest potential puppy buyers join breed lists and even if you don't contribute, really listen to what is being said.
For me it is not whether or not they have health issues but what they are actually doing about it...
I will use my own experiences as an example... I purchased a puppy and he was diagnosed with juvenille cateracts. *First the breeder told anyone who would listen that I had another dog out of my own breeding tested and that was the dog that failed the eye test and I was just claiming it came from her kennel. Ok..anyone who knows anything about eye cerfs knows that the dog must have a micro chip and they actually scan the dogs chip and put this on the paperwork when they do the test... so I re-did the test 2 weeks later at a show that was offering eye cerfs. I invited the breeder to witness this test... the response " Its your dog do what you want" I followed through with the test and the same results were obtained.
* Then the breeder told me she would not replaced him or give any compensation because eye problems were not covered in the contract and even made the referance that Siberian breeders (this was not even the breed in question) did not guarentee the eyes and that eyes problems just weren't included under health guarentees..
* She insisted there was no reason not to use him in my breeding program and encouraged me to use him. I knew better and was not about to use him period. But to prove my point and see what the outcome would be I suggested to her that I breed him to the female we co-owned ( another story for another day). Well to put it mildly she did not like my idea... I told her I did not understand why that was such a bad idea : )*for the record, I can back up all of this with the copys of the original emails*
Now I understand that a dog can develop cateracts and eye problems but seriously at 6 months old and to not cover that in her contract and stand behind her dogs.
This to me makes a breeder unreputable. I thought I knew this breeder and I thought she was reputable. I purchased several dogs from her and did not find out until later how un-reputable she actually was.
I belive a breeder with only 1 or 2 dogs can be just as reputable as a breeder with a lot of dogs. We need to take the time to find out what are there morals and ethics and do they stand behind their dogs.This takes time and research.
re: accidental breeding- I have had some very determined males and females in the past... I have had males that no matter what you did they would escape when they wanted out. I have had dogs go over fences under fences and rip holes in fences. Over the years I have learned 2 ways htat work best for me if I am not planing on breeding the female. One is to keep the female in the kennel building and the male in the house or vice versa.
The other that works well with is to put the female in her kennel run and the male in the crate directly in front of him with his crate pushed tight against the kennel gate or crate to crate. I know this seems like cruel and evil and that the male would be very upset, but it actually works. I think because he can see her that it actually calms him.
2 of males ( Kai) would climb to the top of their wire covered runs and and hang there as long as possible each time and with their teeth and nose rip and pry at the wire until they started a hole and eventually made it big enough. They had broken teeth and scarred noses from this. It was amazing what they would go through to get out. I finally resorted to an electronic shoc collar and standing at the window for eternity making corrections when ever they reach out in any way to touch the fence making them think it would shock them each time.. this takes a lot of time standing there doing nothing.
I had a Shiba who was very clever. I had to 2 dog doors of off the house with 2 seperate pens. The pens where not connected and had about 10 to 12 feet in between, this dog thought it best to dig under the house into the crawl space and dig back out into the pen the female was in,luckily she was not ready yet.
I had a female who would back right up to the fence and stand..slutpuppy
And then there is Rocky, we resorted to a runner which (knock on wood) he has only gotten off of 2 times in 2 years, once he chewed his collar somehow and once the snap broke. Rocky is the ultimate escape artist. He can leap 4 foot fences, climb fences, gates, uses corners to his advntage, rips through fences, digs under and has destroyed and damaged every crate he was ever put into. My brother has welded and repaired and reinenforced with steel mesh and still he manages to find a weak spot somewhere. He can open latches and gates with ease. I had to install drop pins on all gates so he could not open them. He does prefer to use the gates, either over under or through.There is no particular pattern to whenhe is going to escape. He can go months without and when you least expect it he's out.The crate to crate method works well with him.
As for our "escapee" (Ayu), that was less an infrastructure fail and more a Brad FAIL. I wouldn't have trusted only the fence to keep Ayu from the boys (or the boys from Ayu), in the past I had always put the girls out in the smaller fenced area only after all of the male dogs were brought in to the house and crated or kenneled in the barn. But, this one time I made a mistake and let Ayu out in the smaller fenced area when the boys were out in a different fenced area. I have no good excuse to give for my mistake, it was a "brain fart" I guess... Perhaps due to some lack of sleep with the addition of our daughter and a lot of young NK pups all at the same time.
Anyway, 6 years of dealing with intact dogs of all sizes and only one brain-fart, I think that's an OK track record. I'm only human.
In regards to the kennel we plan to add and the concerns you brought up, that kennel will be located next to the barn in one of our smaller fenced areas. So, yea, the point of the kennel is to have a "double barrier" type of setup where (when girls are in heat) the boys are not in the smaller fenced area where the 12' x 12' kennel will be located.
Could you share the details of your kennel set-up that didn't work? What type of wire and what gauge?
Since your brother is handy with the welder, have you two tried making a kennel from scratch out of rod iron fencing instead of mesh? Rested on top of concrete?
One problem with health guarantees is that the breeder has no control over the treatment of the puppy after it goes to its new home. Poor diet, over exercising when still young, lots of vaccinations and early spay/neuter can all lead to health problems.
I understand people sometimes...is money so important that you ruin others' lives and harm animals??? What happens when these animals have health problems due to ill-breeding? The emotional toll it takes on the animal and its owner...makes me so sad.
I find it is so interesting that people will judge and bash others without ever meeting them or knowing anything about them. Sad really! Have a wonderful day
I kind of have to agree with JennAB for those of you who haven't actually met her. I haven't, so I will reserve judgment. I don't know much about her, I don't know if she tests her dogs how she raises them so I won't call her a good or bad breeder.
I guess I don't conform to the camp that thinks only dogs who fit the visual "standard" should be bred. I don't give a crap about standards that don't put the health and temperament of the dog above looks. If your Shiba has LP, hypothyroidism etc. but looks AMAZING, conforms to all aspects of the visual standard, is a champion in the show ring or whatever does NOT mean he should be bred. A pretty dog means nothing to me. I look for breeders who test and PASS those health tests, raises and socializes their pups right and truly cares about the health of the breed over someone who only breeds for conformation. If that means getting a pup from a breeder who bred a cream to a pinto, then so be it. I'd rather have a healthy pup than a pretty pup. If that means you won't sell me a dog in the future then fine. I don't want it if you think being pretty is better than being healthy.
I also don't care if someone crosses dogs IF they test and pass and raise the pups right and screen buyers. Same for people who breed for pets. Don't care if they don't meet the standards for color as long as they are healthy and have the right temperament for their breed. That goes for all dogs of all breeds.
I understand that preservation of some breeds is a big thing here, and I do agree with that since I do like these breeds and their individual traits. But I won't look down on someone who's Shikoku knocks up their Kai and they sell the pups. As long as those parents have, like I've already said, passed health checks and have good temperaments, I wouldn't mind owning one. Sure it's not "pure" but hey, neither am I.
@Losech - there are breeders that do both. Look at the standards and do health checks on their dogs. There are breeders who work very hard and diligently to produce the best shibas/dog they can and then there are breeders who think doing a health check but not looking at the the overall picture and throwing their two dogs together is also okay. Then there are breeders who go off of looks and looks alone and do not do any tests.
There are a lot of puppy buyers who do go off based on looks as well. For instance, someone who may want a cream shiba pup, but doesn't want to wait on a waiting list from a breeder who does health check their dogs and breed to the standard, because there are sometimes cream pups that pop up from ethical breeders. The buyer instantly wants the puppy now so they go with a breeder who doesn't breed to the standard and who may just do a "wellness" check instead of a health check of the eyes, hips, knees, etc.
Why not wait and look for a breeder who breeds to the standards as best as they can and also do health checks? There are plenty of shiba enthusiasts and breeders who do that. .
As for someone who accidentally has a shikoku or kai mix litter, well we are all human and sometimes an "oops" breeding might happen, but it's another situation if they are intentionally mixing shikoku and kai together. Although back in Japan I know sometimes they different NKs were bred together, but now it's about preservation of the breed and not making the biggest, best mut out of the NKs.
Anyways, from the looks of the link that Lindsay had posted, it looks like a couple got a dog from JennAB and bred them. I don't know who the couple is that bred the dog or what their dogs look like or if they even did health checks on their dogs or what the puppy contract stated about being bred in the future.
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@lindsayt - That's a lot of "musts". It would be hard to quantify most of that list, unfortunately. You may know breeders that fit that list perfectly (as do I), but that list doesn't make it so a puppy buyer can find those breeders easily. I'm not saying I don't agree with the list (I do), but I know if I was a first time puppy buyer that list would stress me out.
The quickest way to make a new puppy buyer ignore a list and do an impulse buy is to make the list (seemingly) impossible for them to use.
About rescue, I assume you heard about Stacey helping pull that CO in NC from a kill shelter and how that all went down? (This certain rescue group threatening Stacey's foster home)... This is the type of thing I base my experience off of - it may be all "we are the world" in Shikoku, Shiba, and Basenji but I don't think that's the norm in dogdom. But, as you know, old Brad is a bitter bitter dogman. :oT
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@curlytails - Yes, of course I agree that breeders and rescues should work together. If you are reading my comments as me arguing against that type of concept then I think you are not understanding me (or my words are being twisted). Historically I have stated on this very forum that I would like to see rescue groups and breeders work better together.
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That is a pretty daunting list looking back at it. Trust me, I would love to spill the beans on the bad breeders in this breed in a public forum and write it all out plainly for pet people about why one should specifically not buy from such and such breeder, but I would be sued and many or most I am thinking of have more money than I do and lawyers to boot.
I guess that only leaves lists like this that basically serve to exclude practices that I know those particular breeders do that I find so unethical and harmful, without naming names. This is definitely not a "we are the world" breed by the way, lol, and truthful information has to be earned or learned the hard way if people want to take short cuts without doing real research.
I know Stace mentioned something about that, but I was buying chickens when she did and I spaced out on the deets! I'll have to call her again. CO rescue really sucks. It's cut throat and everyone hates each other outside of their cliques, and the breed is so misrepresented in mainstream dog fancy, I don't know if I would ever take another CO rescue.
"must have contract with full refund or replacement if pup does not turn out"
Culture difference between here. I just want to scream why people would like to refund ALIVE animal, dog isn't a bike which you can take back when you don't like it anymore. Dog is lifelong commitment even it woudn't full your own desire. Ife hasn't full my expectation but I never ever would take her back. But like I said culture difference...
@Mirka, actually the health guarantee is fairly standard for puppy contracts in the US. Including the replacement thing. I doubt very much many people replace their pups, but it is fairly common in contracts. And Lindsay breeds Shibas
@Lindsay, I think that list is pretty good actually, even if it is long. I've been in the process of writing a blog about choosing a breeder (part two) so you've given me some more things to think about, as has this whole discussion.
Question: do dog people really sue others for saying things about their kennels? I assume it must happen or people wouldn't be so wary of it, but....Damn. Usually people threaten to sue but don't (once they realize how much it costs to actually get a defamation case going, and how unlikely they are to get anything out of it) but I guess people have really done this?
@MirkaM, I think the idea behind a lifetime health guarantee assumes both that the breeder will do their best to screen for any major genetic diseases understanding that even screening isn't 100% (but it's a damn good start), and that again, the breeder's affirmation of responsibility ensures that the dog will always have someplace to go. If the dog is diagnosed with, say, glaucoma or Progressive Retinal Atrophy years after puppyhood, and the owners who have certainly bonded with their dog by that time suddenly find themselves in dire financial or personal straits and cannot afford the medical care for a major medical condition they did not expect, they don't have to leave the dog in a lurch. Owner will work together with breeder to find help for the dog that they BOTH care about, instead of abandoning him. Certainly, the specifics and the relationship between breeder and owner will vary, but this is how I have seen it play out before. It's a statement that the breeder cares about the lifetime health of their dog.
@Calia, well, there's this site... but no, I would not expect that to be the norm across all dogs or all breeds. I think this is where Brad's idea of a business model for dog breeding would intersect, perhaps? The Better Business Bureau lists and rates some puppy mills as well, but it's not a particularly effective category.
I dunno. I've wondered about this too. I think dog people can a little crazy... vet reviews on sites like Yelp, for example, are notoriously fickle, even if everyone believes they're being "truthful" in their assessment. But on the other hand, I think the more the Internet enables puppy sales on a totally different scale, the more the Internet can and should be mobilized to provide information about breeders. It's a medium that can work both ways -- for the benefit of the breeder and for the buyer.
I've noticed that Shiba people do seem more reticent to name their sources, for whatever reason. Basenji people (sorry if you're sick of these comparisons! =]) seem more likely to prod about kennel names though. There are fewer B's out there and so it's kind of a thrill to bump into others who are "related" by their dogs. I've noticed you folks on the Nihon ken side are also more willing to name breeders when it comes to the rarer breeds. Shiba folks are mum though, for whatever reason.
Don't you stand by what you produce? I'm looking at anywhere from three to five generations of LIVING dogs behind my breeding dogs that I can meet anytime and see in person how their health is at 11 years and older. All healthy active seniors. Yes, I will guarantee lifetime health as there is absolutely no reason for me not to be confident in the health of my dogs and those behind them.
I can see with the truely rare breeds whose parents and grands are in the mountains in Japan, you as a breeder would not feel as comfortable doing that since you can't see them daily. I see nothing wrong with a binding promise of a breeder taking back a dog if things dont turn out or if the owner drops the ball. It is in the dogs best interest, and in my breeding contracts for dogs I have purchased, it was expected.
There are some crack pots in Shibas who threaten legal action all the time as a shield when ever their bad behavior is challenged or they are slandered in print. They don't get away with it for long because reputation gets you everywhere and they will be isolated and shunned by reputable breeders.
Places like Icewind and RPK don't care about slander since they don't have a good reputation to uphold to begin with, and they dont show, which is why they can continue breeding and selling guilt free. A citation by AKC doesn't do much when someone is already banned from reputable dog acitivites.
If a "reputable" person is written up, word gets around fast in a quiet fashion and no one will do business with them which immediately damages their reputation at shows and in the fancy. Public slander of a reputable person (a printed statement from another breeder) can damage sales dramatically and so people are careful to make their complaints more private as that would be an instant lawsuit otherwise. It's also in bad taste because it then appears you are just trying to make yourself look like a better buying option.
Yes, they do. They will also sue if a breed club kicks them out. Even if they don't have a strong case, the cost of litigation is enough to keep people mum.
Going way back to escapees and accidental litters, I think I may owe you an apology for putting you on the spot. Guess I'm hypersensitive about even one accidental litter because in Jindos I've known a person that claimed to have *3* accidental litters, one after another, and there was a chunk of people willing to overlook that.
It's good that people are learning from each other's oops. Just a FYI though that a closed kennel with a closed cover is not going to be sufficient for a determined breeder.
Dog have bred through fences before. You probably already know this, but just in case other people don't, dogs don't require a tie to impregnate a female.
Dogs have climbed a female's kennel, gotten on top of the cover, and collapsed the cover.
Females have unlatched gates even though they've never shown the interest or the ability before. They were just respectful of the owner's wishes until they had a different, more pressing priority.
The better set-ups are going to be the ones that offer a double barrier. ie. A closed kennel in a garage or barn. Tractor Supply used to have a commerical that was jokingly about preserving the honor of a female dog that just went to heat. I thought it was actually a decent set-up with a kennel inside a fenced area with angled bars on top. Wish I could find that on youtube to share.
1. what types of temperament testing and evaluations do you perform when considering studs and bitches for breeding stock ?
2. which temperament testing methods do you use for the litters and how are pups socialized ?
This is very true, but I want to impress this is not something you can do in a few phone calls or a couple visits... most people are in a huge hurry to acquire their next dog and don't really have the time or bother to take the time to really check out a breeder.This can takes months even years to establish.
Just because they have a bunch of titles or own more of that breed than other breeders does not make them reputable.Talking with them and listening to what is being said about them and researching if these things are true or not is the only way to find out if a breeder is responsible and reputable. Just because they hand you a list of referance of happy puppy owners does not mean they are reputable. Do you think as a breeder they are going to give you the names of anyone who is unhappy with them as a breeder?
I think a general list is a good place to use as a referance and some things are flexible on that list, each person really needs to decide what is the most important to them.
I don't beleive that just because someone does all the right health testing or has a bunch of champions this makes them a reputable breeder. Learning who is a reputable breeder takes time and getting to know each breeder. A breeder who honors their contracts is a reputable breeder. I always suggest potential puppy buyers join breed lists and even if you don't contribute, really listen to what is being said.
For me it is not whether or not they have health issues but what they are actually doing about it...
I will use my own experiences as an example... I purchased a puppy and he was diagnosed with juvenille cateracts.
*First the breeder told anyone who would listen that I had another dog out of my own breeding tested and that was the dog that failed the eye test and I was just claiming it came from her kennel. Ok..anyone who knows anything about eye cerfs knows that the dog must have a micro chip and they actually scan the dogs chip and put this on the paperwork when they do the test... so I re-did the test 2 weeks later at a show that was offering eye cerfs. I invited the breeder to witness this test... the response " Its your dog do what you want" I followed through with the test and the same results were obtained.
* Then the breeder told me she would not replaced him or give any compensation because eye problems were not covered in the contract and even made the referance that Siberian breeders (this was not even the breed in question) did not guarentee the eyes and that eyes problems just weren't included under health guarentees..
* She insisted there was no reason not to use him in my breeding program and encouraged me to use him. I knew better and was not about to use him period. But to prove my point and see what the outcome would be I suggested to her that I breed him to the female we co-owned ( another story for another day). Well to put it mildly she did not like my idea... I told her I did not understand why that was such a bad idea : )*for the record, I can back up all of this with the copys of the original emails*
Now I understand that a dog can develop cateracts and eye problems but seriously at 6 months old and to not cover that in her contract and stand behind her dogs.
This to me makes a breeder unreputable.
I thought I knew this breeder and I thought she was reputable. I purchased several dogs from her and did not find out until later how un-reputable she actually was.
I belive a breeder with only 1 or 2 dogs can be just as reputable as a breeder with a lot of dogs. We need to take the time to find out what are there morals and ethics and do they stand behind their dogs.This takes time and research.
I kind've feel a little bad for the cute puppy in the video.
The other that works well with is to put the female in her kennel run and the male in the crate directly in front of him with his crate pushed tight against the kennel gate or crate to crate. I know this seems like cruel and evil and that the male would be very upset, but it actually works. I think because he can see her that it actually calms him.
2 of males ( Kai) would climb to the top of their wire covered runs and and hang there as long as possible each time and with their teeth and nose rip and pry at the wire until they started a hole and eventually made it big enough. They had broken teeth and scarred noses from this. It was amazing what they would go through to get out.
I finally resorted to an electronic shoc collar and standing at the window for eternity making corrections when ever they reach out in any way to touch the fence making them think it would shock them each time.. this takes a lot of time standing there doing nothing.
I had a Shiba who was very clever. I had to 2 dog doors of off the house with 2 seperate pens. The pens where not connected and had about 10 to 12 feet in between, this dog thought it best to dig under the house into the crawl space and dig back out into the pen the female was in,luckily she was not ready yet.
I had a female who would back right up to the fence and stand..slutpuppy
And then there is Rocky, we resorted to a runner which (knock on wood) he has only gotten off of 2 times in 2 years, once he chewed his collar somehow and once the snap broke. Rocky is the ultimate escape artist. He can leap 4 foot fences, climb fences, gates, uses corners to his advntage, rips through fences, digs under and has destroyed and damaged every crate he was ever put into. My brother has welded and repaired and reinenforced with steel mesh and still he manages to find a weak spot somewhere. He can open latches and gates with ease. I had to install drop pins on all gates so he could not open them. He does prefer to use the gates, either over under or through.There is no particular pattern to whenhe is going to escape. He can go months without and when you least expect it he's out.The crate to crate method works well with him.
As for our "escapee" (Ayu), that was less an infrastructure fail and more a Brad FAIL. I wouldn't have trusted only the fence to keep Ayu from the boys (or the boys from Ayu), in the past I had always put the girls out in the smaller fenced area only after all of the male dogs were brought in to the house and crated or kenneled in the barn. But, this one time I made a mistake and let Ayu out in the smaller fenced area when the boys were out in a different fenced area. I have no good excuse to give for my mistake, it was a "brain fart" I guess... Perhaps due to some lack of sleep with the addition of our daughter and a lot of young NK pups all at the same time.
Anyway, 6 years of dealing with intact dogs of all sizes and only one brain-fart, I think that's an OK track record. I'm only human.
In regards to the kennel we plan to add and the concerns you brought up, that kennel will be located next to the barn in one of our smaller fenced areas. So, yea, the point of the kennel is to have a "double barrier" type of setup where (when girls are in heat) the boys are not in the smaller fenced area where the 12' x 12' kennel will be located.
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Could you share the details of your kennel set-up that didn't work? What type of wire and what gauge?
Since your brother is handy with the welder, have you two tried making a kennel from scratch out of rod iron fencing instead of mesh? Rested on top of concrete?
Lindsay's link is from Facebook mobile... I was able to pull it up on my phone, but not my work computer.
It takes you to the group page, and it is the post that has a time stamp of 17 hours ago (at 10:30 a.m., that is).
I guess I don't conform to the camp that thinks only dogs who fit the visual "standard" should be bred. I don't give a crap about standards that don't put the health and temperament of the dog above looks.
If your Shiba has LP, hypothyroidism etc. but looks AMAZING, conforms to all aspects of the visual standard, is a champion in the show ring or whatever does NOT mean he should be bred. A pretty dog means nothing to me.
I look for breeders who test and PASS those health tests, raises and socializes their pups right and truly cares about the health of the breed over someone who only breeds for conformation. If that means getting a pup from a breeder who bred a cream to a pinto, then so be it. I'd rather have a healthy pup than a pretty pup. If that means you won't sell me a dog in the future then fine. I don't want it if you think being pretty is better than being healthy.
I also don't care if someone crosses dogs IF they test and pass and raise the pups right and screen buyers. Same for people who breed for pets. Don't care if they don't meet the standards for color as long as they are healthy and have the right temperament for their breed. That goes for all dogs of all breeds.
I understand that preservation of some breeds is a big thing here, and I do agree with that since I do like these breeds and their individual traits. But I won't look down on someone who's Shikoku knocks up their Kai and they sell the pups. As long as those parents have, like I've already said, passed health checks and have good temperaments, I wouldn't mind owning one. Sure it's not "pure" but hey, neither am I.
There are a lot of puppy buyers who do go off based on looks as well. For instance, someone who may want a cream shiba pup, but doesn't want to wait on a waiting list from a breeder who does health check their dogs and breed to the standard, because there are sometimes cream pups that pop up from ethical breeders. The buyer instantly wants the puppy now so they go with a breeder who doesn't breed to the standard and who may just do a "wellness" check instead of a health check of the eyes, hips, knees, etc.
Why not wait and look for a breeder who breeds to the standards as best as they can and also do health checks? There are plenty of shiba enthusiasts and breeders who do that. .
As for someone who accidentally has a shikoku or kai mix litter, well we are all human and sometimes an "oops" breeding might happen, but it's another situation if they are intentionally mixing shikoku and kai together. Although back in Japan I know sometimes they different NKs were bred together, but now it's about preservation of the breed and not making the biggest, best mut out of the NKs.
Anyways, from the looks of the link that Lindsay had posted, it looks like a couple got a dog from JennAB and bred them. I don't know who the couple is that bred the dog or what their dogs look like or if they even did health checks on their dogs or what the puppy contract stated about being bred in the future.