@jujee I am fully aware of that. I was merely stating one side or the other and didn't want to write a huge post on every little detail in-between. I figured everyone would be able to tell that a breeder who sticks to the standard and health checks their dogs would be fine in my book.
But when it comes to some dogs, and I don't mean Shibas, I just used them as an example in my pother post, that breeding outside of the standard in order to preserve genetic health is more important than sticking to the standard because it's "the standard" and it must not be violated.
@losech, it becomes more an issue when people who use the "breeding outside the standard to improve diversity" fallacy as a justification to cut corners in breeds with good numbers, type and health where we can be very selective about what is bred.
@Lindsayt I'm not saying cutting corners in every breed is okay. I also said that I don't mean Shibas, if you read my last post, I used them as an EXAMPLE. Dogs with a wide genetic variety, like Shibas, Labs, Golden Retrievers etc. can be bred more selectively with no detrimental health problems. In the instance of a Kai Ken, if the dog you want to breed is 1/2 inch too tall, excluding him from the program is kinda stupid because his only problem is being slightly taller than the holy standard depicts he should be. That is what I'm talking about.
In terms of color, if you exclude all dogs with no white or all white dogs from a breed like the Azawakh you will restrict the gene pool so much that attempting to preserve the breed will result in highly inbred dogs. Inbreeding, in my opinion, is not a good practice if it can be avoided. Some breeds can get away with this while others cannot.
I understand what you mean, and in general I agree, but since we are discussing Shibas specifically here, not Kai, or other breeds, I wanted to make that point about Shibas specifically.
I would really like to remain as neutral as possible on this, however I think we should all take a step back and give Jenn a second chance.
I think she's making a very strong effort to be a better breeder, learn more, and do right by her dogs and the breed. I was looking back over this thread, and there are several times where she expressed a desire to take advice and conform to the standards of the shiba community. I feel like there's a wall going up between her and the online shiba community, and I don't think it's the right thing to do. If you really feel she's doing something wrong, then start an open, objective, non-judgmental dialogue about it. If someone's willing to learn and improve, why are we shutting them out?
Honestly, I wouldn't have bred a mixed, all-black shiba and I would avoid non-standard colours, too, but let's not go nuts. She's retired those dogs, and she now is co-owning some dogs (I think even a NIPPO dog?) with Koyote Kennel. I'm not terribly up-to-date on shiba breeder politics and gossip, but I don't know of any scandals involving Koyote.
I don't know where she got the all-black shiba, but is there a reason why we're assuming it was a puppy mill? Just curious. Also, the pinto dog has white socks and a white tail tip, which I don't think actually counts as a pinto. The shiba standard even says it's okay to have white socks and that it's normal for shibas to be born with white tail tips.
Really, though, I just want to make the point that making enemies doesn't help the breed. Breeders have a tendency to talk smack about each other and not get along and I'd really like to see us avoid that.
I think the main problem is from the OP in that facebook group stating that a young couple who purchased a pup from Jenn and a pup from Icewind farm has bred the two together.
"she's making a very strong effort to be a better breeder, learn more, and do right by her dogs and the breed"
I think that within this thread, Jenn does sound very approachable and according to her website, she has retired the creams, the solid black, and the pinto. But one thing that she has continued to do is to breed dogs young and without OFA health certs.
For instance, even though she has stripped a lot of info from her website since this thread started, I still do know that her red male, Hiro - born Apr 2010, was still too young to have gotten OFA health certs when he sired the litter of 8 pups that was born in Aug 2011. I still do know that her black/tan female, Ebony - born July 2010, was still too young for the OFA health certs when she whelped a litter in Oct 2011.
I don't necessarily hold that recent Facebook post about her dog and an Icewind dog as an indictment against her. There are too many unknowns and too many people involved in that.
I don't think of her as in the same catagory as the worst of the worst Shiba breeder who don't care for their dogs, but she knows what is expected. I feel fair comments have been directed towards her, but her response has been to resort to secrecy and to continue breeding young.
Thank you, ayk, for your reasoned statement. You hit exactly what I wanted to say.
And while I agree that what one of her puppy people did with one of her dogs doesn't give anyone license to "go nuts," I'll repeat a question that I presented to Jenn waaaay above: "And what would you say to one of your puppy people if, against all better judgment, decides they HAVE to breed one of their little black Shibas [or any other colored Shiba] that they purchased from you because she's extremely sweet, has a 'rare' color, and they just want one of his/her puppies (never mind the others in the litter who also need good homes)? [...] That's exactly the type of rationale that has come up again and again in scenarios that have caused our beloved Shiba to fall into compromised situations. And it's something that responsible breeders think about and do everything in their power to prevent from happening, partly by not falling for and modeling the same temptations in the first place."
It is extremely disappointing to me -- not as a breeder who's ganging up to 'talk smack' about another breeder but as someone who cares about the breed's welfare in general -- that the situation took this turn as quickly as it did.
If breeders and enthusiasts took the energy they spent talking about and criticizing other breeders and enthusiasts, and focused that energy on improving their breed of choice, breeds would probably be in a better state than they are now. Seems like a lot of wasted energy to be so caught up in what other people are doing - focus that energy on what you are doing to help the breed. You know, "Think global, breed local"...
I admit to having really complex feelings about this. I don't particularly want to bash someone I don't know, and since I've seen criticisms of people in much different circumstances turn really ugly, I've tried to be aware of that, and be careful. As far as I can see, I don't agree with everything that Jenn is doing, but I also know I don't really know what's going on, and I'm not a breeder. I think Ayk's statement was pretty good overall. I do think that if someone is really committed to being a good breeder, though, they (whoever they are) should learn from mistakes and try to improve and be open to constructive criticism.
My response about that sucks was actually for the couple who bred one of her dogs and an icewind dog. That REALLY sucks, and it's that kind of thing I feel very much justified in criticizing, and while I do agree with Brad to a degree about wasted energy, etc, I also think it's worth taking a stand against something that shouldn't be happening (the icewind breeding). I don't know if Jenn's contracts have spay/neuter contracts, but if they don't then it's probably time to include that in them. But it could be these people just decided to do this, too, without her knowledge.
So....Yeah. Not sure what that add, except that I do have a lot of concerns for this breed, and frankly, there are WAY too many poorly bred Shibas in the world, and we don't need any more, and I sure wish people breeding would consider that and put the dogs first, which may mean NOT breeding....
Oh, and one other thing: I don't think people should sell mix breed dogs. I can see having small rehoming fees to make sure the people who get them are serious, but I don't think that people should be rewarded for mix breedings by selling the puppies.
Comments
But when it comes to some dogs, and I don't mean Shibas, I just used them as an example in my pother post, that breeding outside of the standard in order to preserve genetic health is more important than sticking to the standard because it's "the standard" and it must not be violated.
In terms of color, if you exclude all dogs with no white or all white dogs from a breed like the Azawakh you will restrict the gene pool so much that attempting to preserve the breed will result in highly inbred dogs. Inbreeding, in my opinion, is not a good practice if it can be avoided. Some breeds can get away with this while others cannot.
I think she's making a very strong effort to be a better breeder, learn more, and do right by her dogs and the breed. I was looking back over this thread, and there are several times where she expressed a desire to take advice and conform to the standards of the shiba community. I feel like there's a wall going up between her and the online shiba community, and I don't think it's the right thing to do. If you really feel she's doing something wrong, then start an open, objective, non-judgmental dialogue about it. If someone's willing to learn and improve, why are we shutting them out?
Honestly, I wouldn't have bred a mixed, all-black shiba and I would avoid non-standard colours, too, but let's not go nuts. She's retired those dogs, and she now is co-owning some dogs (I think even a NIPPO dog?) with Koyote Kennel. I'm not terribly up-to-date on shiba breeder politics and gossip, but I don't know of any scandals involving Koyote.
I don't know where she got the all-black shiba, but is there a reason why we're assuming it was a puppy mill? Just curious. Also, the pinto dog has white socks and a white tail tip, which I don't think actually counts as a pinto. The shiba standard even says it's okay to have white socks and that it's normal for shibas to be born with white tail tips.
Really, though, I just want to make the point that making enemies doesn't help the breed. Breeders have a tendency to talk smack about each other and not get along and I'd really like to see us avoid that.
I think that within this thread, Jenn does sound very approachable and according to her website, she has retired the creams, the solid black, and the pinto. But one thing that she has continued to do is to breed dogs young and without OFA health certs.
For instance, even though she has stripped a lot of info from her website since this thread started, I still do know that her red male, Hiro - born Apr 2010, was still too young to have gotten OFA health certs when he sired the litter of 8 pups that was born in Aug 2011. I still do know that her black/tan female, Ebony - born July 2010, was still too young for the OFA health certs when she whelped a litter in Oct 2011.
I don't necessarily hold that recent Facebook post about her dog and an Icewind dog as an indictment against her. There are too many unknowns and too many people involved in that.
I don't think of her as in the same catagory as the worst of the worst Shiba breeder who don't care for their dogs, but she knows what is expected. I feel fair comments have been directed towards her, but her response has been to resort to secrecy and to continue breeding young.
And while I agree that what one of her puppy people did with one of her dogs doesn't give anyone license to "go nuts," I'll repeat a question that I presented to Jenn waaaay above: "And what would you say to one of your puppy people if, against all better judgment, decides they HAVE to breed one of their little black Shibas [or any other colored Shiba] that they purchased from you because she's extremely sweet, has a 'rare' color, and they just want one of his/her puppies (never mind the others in the litter who also need good homes)? [...] That's exactly the type of rationale that has come up again and again in scenarios that have caused our beloved Shiba to fall into compromised situations. And it's something that responsible breeders think about and do everything in their power to prevent from happening, partly by not falling for and modeling the same temptations in the first place."
It is extremely disappointing to me -- not as a breeder who's ganging up to 'talk smack' about another breeder but as someone who cares about the breed's welfare in general -- that the situation took this turn as quickly as it did.
----
My response about that sucks was actually for the couple who bred one of her dogs and an icewind dog. That REALLY sucks, and it's that kind of thing I feel very much justified in criticizing, and while I do agree with Brad to a degree about wasted energy, etc, I also think it's worth taking a stand against something that shouldn't be happening (the icewind breeding). I don't know if Jenn's contracts have spay/neuter contracts, but if they don't then it's probably time to include that in them. But it could be these people just decided to do this, too, without her knowledge.
So....Yeah. Not sure what that add, except that I do have a lot of concerns for this breed, and frankly, there are WAY too many poorly bred Shibas in the world, and we don't need any more, and I sure wish people breeding would consider that and put the dogs first, which may mean NOT breeding....
Oh, and one other thing: I don't think people should sell mix breed dogs. I can see having small rehoming fees to make sure the people who get them are serious, but I don't think that people should be rewarded for mix breedings by selling the puppies.