I think I've got an aggressive dog.
So I think Ninja is dog aggressive for sure now. I was brushing Ninja with the furminator in the front yard and one of my neighbors was in the common area walking his 2 shih tzu's. We see them time to time on walks and my dogs do not get along with his. They are both boys and one was a rescue named Gizmo. Gizmo has the need to prove that he is the Alpha Male right away. He actually even snapped at Portia once. And he growls and barks at my dogs a lot.
Well, there's a gate to my front yard so they can smell eachother through it but can't get to eachother. I was talking with my neighbor and then I heard growling...I thought it was Gizmo, but then I asked is that my dog? And he laughed and said, yeah thats him. He was growling really loud and was showing his teeth. I've never seen him show his teeth. When I found out that Ninja was growling I kneeled down and said "STOP" and pushed him a little bit to get his attention. He would stop and 10 seconds later, start growling again. So I kept correcting him and after about 5 times of correcting he walked 10 feet away and laid down.
So I guess my question is, do you guys think that he was growling more than normal and showing his teeth because he was trying to protect his territory or do you think that he just doesn't like dogs period. Usually on the walks, they will go up to eachother and smell and then start growling, Ninja usually backs away and ignores them, but once they approach him he starts growling and tries to move farther away.
I don't think I can really condition him if he is dog aggressive because I don't want to put anyone else's dog in possible danger. Also at Obedience Class, I notice he growls at the Yorki-poo next to us all the time when he approaches Ninja. But he is always sniffing his face, so I figured Ninja just doesn't like when dogs are up in his face.
Or is it possible that his hormones are all out of wack due to the neuter?
It seems like everytime we take one step closer in one of his issues, something gets worse in another. Im not really sure how to approach this issue though because if I do something wrong or im not quick enough to act, he might end up biting or getting in a fight, which i definately do not want him to experince. This kind of kills my dream of ever getting a Shikoku or another dog as long as Ninja's around.
But the fear of strangers has simmered down a bit. When Ninja was growling my neighbor put his hand to the gate and Ninja stopped growling and went up to sniff.
If anyone has any information or suggestions, im all EARS!
Comments
Romi I think you are a little overly excited. Not that you shouldn't be concerned, but I don't think you should jump to any conclusions here. To me it seems like Ninja was protecting his territory when he was growling and showing teeth at the gate, and probably protecting his mom a bit too. Since he walked away and laid down after you told him too (shibas never listen the first time) I really think he did good.
He is so young, that you have a long time to work with him if he does have any aggressive tendencies. Not all dogs get along with every dog they meet. Since he is growling, but not yet doing anything beyond that (snapping, attacking, lunging) I think he is doing a good job of controlling himself. Growling is a verbal warning, it's telling the other dogs to back off. If they back off, or he growls and then happily moves on, I don't see it as a big issue.
A lot of this could also be from him being neutered as that effects his hormones will mess with his psyche a little bit.
I guess when I think of aggressive dogs, I don't think of a dog that growls. Aggressive dogs don't always give warning, they lunge, bite, attack, and don't stop when you ask them too. I don't think you have to give up on the thought adding more dogs to your pack. Nemo has done worse than Ninja, he can be dog aggressive, and I'm sure I could bring in another dog, it would just take time.
See, Im so protective and worried all the time, that I never let it get to that point where I actually find out he's an aggressive dog. I guess im just trying to prevent it, and work with it, before it actually happens. I've never had a dog with any issues or had a close enough bond to a dog to ever really know everything about it. Im sorry, I know im getting a little ahead of myself, but I see so many dogs acting aggressive and getting into fights and hurting other dogs on shows, I guess I don't want to fail him as an owner and let him become like that. Does that sound selfish?
It seems that when I first got him he was more mellow, and now his fears are escalating. Before, he was fine with dogs, he would sniff them, let them sniff him, whatever...no growling no tension. But little by little it seems like its getting more and more intensified with each new encounter. Or am I just totally over-reacting? He is still young, 6 1/2 months now. I think maybe im just in "over-protective mommy state of mind" right now. I think I need to relax. I worry so much about what he could be, or what he might do. I don't know what is it with me, but I get super worried and protective of Ninja. Maybe because of the whole fear of strangers thing and making sure I do the right thing to make sure he has a good experience to overcome it. Am I babying him too much?
Brandon, thank you for that. Sorry if im annoying you with all my over-emotional posts. I feel like the over-protective worry wart mom that no one likes now. lol.
I agree, it sounds like he has had an issue w/ Gizmo before and doesn't like him - Ninja may be a bit reactive but it is to early to label him aggressive. Like Brandon pointed out, a growl is a warning - an aggressive dog doesn't give warnings.
I guarantee Ahi will growl when you see her, but I promise she is far from aggressive.
Romi, My trainer told me that it takes about 3 months after a neutering before the hormones settle down.
I agree with the others in that Ninja is just warning the other dog to back off.
So do you guys think that I should keep him away from dogs? Or how should I go about this? Like when we go on walks and see other dogs, usually my neighbors like to talk and chit chat about whatever for a few minutes while the dogs greet eachother. Should I just say "hi" and keep walking and avoid letting the dogs greet eachother? And at what point should I start letting Ninja start to greet other dogs? For the past month or so, he seems fine to be smelled and to smell other dogs, but after he's done, he's done. And if they attempt to approach him again he starts to growl.
I just found out from John that there is a new neighbor with a pomeranian and an aggressive chihuahua. John was walking Portia and a pomeranian came out of nowhere followed by the chihuahua. John told Portia to sit and waited for the owner to get a hold of her dogs.The owner picked up the pomeranian, and was attempting to get the chihuahua but it was nipping at her. The chihuahua then came up to portia and nipped at her face. The owner didn't say anything and then attempted to pick up the chihuahua again and finally got a hold of it and just walked back to her home without saying anything. John was pretty pissed that she didn't even apologize.
I don't think you should keep him away from dogs. I agree that he was trying to protect his territory, or even you the way he might be seeing it. And he was warning the other dogs. Continue with your normal routine with, him being observant of his behaviour (like you are). He's young and maybe going through an affirmation phase. And he's just got neutered, so his hormone level will still have to come down and that will change him a bit.
I think what you should do is find the dog in the neighborhood who gets along with or tolerates all other dogs. See if that owner would be willing to work with you and Ninja. You could do fence walk pasts, on leash meetings, and encourage all of the good signs you see with treats and praise, and properly correct inappropriate behavior. Also keep going to obedience classes, it's a good place for Ninja to interact with a lot of other dogs. Maybe the trainner or other participants would be willing to stay after class and work with you on helping Ninja to properly interact with dogs.
An aggressive Chihuahaua? How shocking, those dogs are like little atomic bombs.
I agree with everyone else. It was a territorial issue. I think you did a great job of correcting him too!
You mentioned Ninja growls at certain dogs outside of the house. Some dogs just don't like other dogs...for whatever reason. The Yorki-poo gets in his face, Gizmo is giving off Alpha Male signals that Ninja feels is improper....You know dogs have a secret 'language' that we don't understand.
The most important thing to remember is to keep calm and not transfer any fear or worry to Ninja so the situation doesn't escalate.
Brandon, he doesn't seem to mind when we walk by other dogs or see them on the other side of the street. It seems as if he gets annoyed when he has to stay next to that dog or be within 5 feet from that dog for more than he wants. Thats when he starts to growl at them.
Barbara, at the dog part we used to go to, we would go every thursday night at 8pm. Most of the people that went at that time and day, we knew and knew that our dogs didn't have any issues with eachother. But the last time we went, Ninja nipped at a Weimaraner puppy that we always see there and never had a problem with before, I think, because he was jealous or being protective of me showing her love. I noticed that I would hear him growl when I pet other dogs, but i just would say "shhh" and walk away. But he never appempted to bite before. Not really sure, but haven't gone back since.
Ah, that's a different story. Maybe he's starting to see you as 'his'?
I haven't been successful with dog aggression, but looking back, maybe I shouldn't have kept Mika away from other dogs. It's so difficult having an antisocial dog, it really is and I just wouldn't want you to have to deal with the same issues me.
I guess that's the hard part for me. I don't know if its fear or aggression yet. Because it seems that if I weren't in control, he would snap at the other dog invading his space. But since I always make sure im in control and don't let it escalate to that state, I'm not sure. He doesn't lounge or bark constantly at them. He just stands his ground and growls like crazy. When I correct him, it takes a few times for him to actually stop growling and move away. I know he has fear issues with people, so maybe it has carried over to other dogs now instead of strangers. It's weird because before he was absolutely fine with dogs but scared to death of strangers. But now he's pretty good with strangers, he'll sniff their hand and take a treat out of their hand(but still won't let them touch him), but he growls a lot more and more often to dogs now.
I did have him shipped to me from Missouri. It was a 6 hour flight with a 1 hour layover. John was saying maybe the long flight made him more scared and kind of stuck with him. I know Brad was saying that Hilo has some issues that may have been caused due to his flight over.
In Obedience Class last week, we were being taught to have them sit calmly while we pet other dogs and show attention and then treat them for their good behavior. We started off with Ninja and Portia and they did fine with eachother and then when I went to pet another dog and had him sit, he started to growl, so I corrected him and started petting the other dog again, 5 seconds later I clicked and treated him. Maybe I should do this more and he will start to associate treats with new dogs and see new dogs as a reward?
If you're *that* concerned about whether or not your pup is starting to show agrressive tendancies, it'd be best to have a dog behaviorist out to your house where he/she can see Ninja in action and give you a non-biased opinion about what is really happening. Then you can work out a game plan as to how to manage/correct/eliminate the potential problem.
Dogs will pick up on your nerves, so if you get nervous any time a dog is coming near or start to worry, or even just tighten your grip on the leash, a dog can feel that and will get themselves on the defensive, just because you are throwing a million little signals that trouble is ahead.
-Sarah
So Ninja bit my roommate today. He walked in, Portia was overly excited to see him. He was petting her, Ninja was barking at him. He stuck out his hand to pet and Ninja bit him. He didn't break the skin or anything, it barely fazed my friend, he just kind of look shocked like "OMG HE BIT ME!"
Anyway, I don't think that he bit him out of aggression, I think it was more out of, you're invading my space, I don't know you, territorial kind of bite? Cuz he was barking at him, but my friend kept going for it...and Portia was really excited for some reason and it felt like a lot was going on at that time. What do you guys think?
I don't know how many times I've told him that he doesn't like people and it will take a long time for him to warm up to him (he is one of my old co-workers, he's been here before we got Ninja) So the whole time he's been here, Ninja still hasn't warmed up to him. And I guess he just went too far too fast this time and ended up getting bit. It kind of bugs me, I don't want my roommates to do something to Ninja that might scar him for life. But I really can't control them. It's just a little irritating because I know he doesn't care about dogs the way I do and he doesn't know that if he does something to Ninja that it could possibly scar him for life, you know...one of those people who think dogs are dogs, nothing more, nothing less.
And John's brother just moved in with us last weekend...and he likes dogs, but he kind of mocks Ninja. When Ninja will growl, you know he'll try to get close and push his buttons, which i really don't like at all. And now that he's living here with us for a while...I don't know...I have to keep a close eye. I told him not to do that and that i'm training him, so hopefully he understands and leaves him alone.
Anyways, back to the bite...I was kind of shocked and just said "did he just bite you?" and then John said "NO!" really loud, it even startled me. And that was it.
From all the other things you mentioned, I think you might be right. Ninja is escalating into aggression. Since he's barking first before the attack and because he's just nipping - not drawing blood, that leads me to believe it's fear based aggression.
I don't think startling Ninja with a loud 'NO!' is the best way to react. Ninja is already afraid, but I'm sure John was just surprised by the bite. I know not everyone is a fan of Cesar Milan, but I remember a blurb about Fearful Aggression in his book. Do you have it?
Oh man, that is a hard one to judge... on the one hand a dog should never bite... but on the other hand he was warning your roommate, and he just didn't listen to the warnings. Dunno that I have nay advice on this one... I guess I would do exactly what you have been doing and make sure they know that you are working through some issues with Ninja and that they need to respect that.
Shibas are kinda mouthy anyway, so it may not have been a bite... I know when Ahi is really excited she puts people in her mouth, doesn't bite just kinda mouths them. The Chad can tell you all about being mouthed by Ahi.
Barbara - I don't have his book, but I have his dvd's coming to me via blockbuster online. So i've been watching a lot of his episodes. Some things I agree with him, other things I don't. I watched a couple episodes of cases with fearful dogs. A few things help, but it just goes back to the same thing. When people come over, I tell them to ignore him, pretend he's not there, no eye contact, no talking to him, no touching. When they do that he gets curious and goes up to them to sniff them and thats it. I finally got him to be able to take treats out of strangers hands, but they cannot look at him or talk to him. They just have to stick out their hand and let him take it.
My trainer gave me a few books, first she thought it was separation anxiety, so i read that book and that wasn't it. And i just read the other book about fearful dogs. Its kind of hard to put into play though. Sometimes he's fine being around strangers, other times he's not. He's becoming very moody too. I think it has to do with the neuter. But in the book it says to go on walks and when there's a stranger 40 yards away, treat them. Do that and then move it to 30 yards, and so on and so on. Ninja doesn't have a problem with strangers who are just there, he has a problem with being touched by strangers. He will go up to strangers and sniff them now, he will take treats out of their hands. But he will not let them even get close to touching him. Once he see's a hand coming towards him, he bolts.
I really don't know how to get him used to it because I don't want to risk him biting someone. In the book it said while he takes the treat from the hand, put the other hand close to his chest, but don't touch, do this 100 times and then get closer and closer until they touch. But I really don't want the risk of someone trying that and doing it wrong or moving too fast and being a bad experience.
What is the name of the book btw?
Yes a Full House indeed!!! We have a 4 bedroom place, it was just john and i for the first few months, then my friends friend needed a place to stay, so he came along, but we never see him, he works 12-14 hour days. Then my old co-worker came so he could be closer to work and school, and now john's brother is here. We had the room's open, just sitting there empty...our rent is nothing now...i must say, its pretty awesome hahaha. And I made it clear that they are renting out a room, not the whole house, so they can use their room, the bathroom, the kitchen and the laundry room. So I don't really have a problem, i don't even know when they're here. But my old co-worker likes to come out and talk and play with portia. And im not so sure about john's brother...but i told john to lay down the rules.
Anyways, I just read your guys' post after posting my long one. Brad - He wasn't being mouthy. Ninja is not mouthy with us at all. I think it was a bite bite. And i know it was out of protecting himself, he was barking at him for like 3 minutes, but this time, he usually runs away...he stood his ground and then bit. So i really do think its my roommates fault. But I hope it didn't leave Ninja with a bad experience or memory.
If you have other books that focus on Fear Aggression, I would stick with those. There is really just a small blurb about it in Ceasar's Way. Maybe head to Barnes and Nobles and take a quick peek, but don't buy it.
I think that Ninja approaching people who ignore him is a terrific step forward! I wouldn't allow anyone just go ahead and pet him because of it, tho. Maybe if he licked them, I would have them try a little pet on his chin, but NOT the top of his head.
As for a stranger giving him treats. Great idea. Do they have to stretch to give Ninja the treat? If so, have them keep repeating, getting the treat closer and close, but still do not touch or talk to Ninja.
Also, and I don't know if this was the right thing to do, but it worked...My co-worker brought his dog to the office a few weeks ago. She's an EXTREMELY fearful dog who miraculously survived Hurricane Katrina. Two other co-workers and I went to greet her. Of course, Biloxi, shied away, so I sat on the ground and let her come to me. In 5 minutes, I was getting kissies galore! In 30 minutes, she was trying her damnedest to get to me as her daddy was working. So cute!!!
I would love to say it was my winning personality that made her fall in love, but really the other two were also dog lovers/owners, so I attribute it to my approach to her.
3 minutes. Well, that was Ninja's warning...and breaking point. He really does seem to be escalating. Sorry.
One thing I know Cesar's book says is that fearful dogs learn to keep people away by showing their teeth, growling and eventually, biting.
That sux....
I will do the treat thing with him this weekend.
Yeah for sure, Im bringing a lot of treats this weekend. So if you don't mind, please feel free to treat as much as possible
If you want to read good books about dogs and why they act the way the do, please look into Patricia McConnell's books
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/books-retail.php
Her book "The Other End of the Leash" is pretty amazing, and her little booklets are great too. There is one about cautious dogs, aggressive dogs, etc.
Great information.
How do you act when he has these episodes?
Do you get nervous or do you take control of the situation immediately? It could be that he is feeding off of your emotions and anxiety, which causes his anxiety to grow even more.
Have you had him evaluated by a behaviorist? Do you know is the behavior is fear, rage, or dominance based? The way you approach the training and corrections depends on WHY your dog is reacting the way he is.
I have a Pembroke Welsh Corgi who is fear aggressive and WILL show his teeth, growl, and snap at any new dog who approaches him. I also understand that Pems are naturally a noisy and bluff-prone breed. For him, I simply worked obedience in the presence of many other dogs and pretty much forced him to take his mind off of anyone else until he calmed down. Now he's fine unless another dog approaches him in a boisterous way, at which time I ask the other handler to back off until Hazel calms down and realises the other dog isn't going to eat him before having them approach more slowly.
I also have a Shiba Inu/GSD mix who acts much like your dog does. Her aggression is purely dominance-based and she will do what it takes to show other dogs around her that she's the boss -- and she will do so noisily. She normally mouths at any new dogs (I have fosters who come in and out every once in a while), usually around the scruff and back area, while making a lot of growly noises and rolling the other dog when possible. She will also growl and snap at any puppy or dog who approaches her in the wrong way at the training facility I work at. This is also a dog who is prone to showing her teeth at ME or giving a resistance bite should I get her to do something she doesn't want to do -- constant, constant, CONSTANT alpha struggle with humans and other dogs. When she does this, I normally throw on her pinch collar, take her outside, and make her go through several HEEL sit, down, sit, down, sit, down praise repeat type drills until all resistance is gone and she's found her place again. Then she's fine for several weeks until she starts acting up again. Keep in mind, though, that this is also a dog that has been evaluated by the behaviorist I work for and has NONE of the typical drives of a dog -- she's the most independent animal he's seen in his 25-year-long career and only has a very, very, very slight drive for touch-praise.
The fact that he walked away and laid down after several corrections tells me that he IS getting it, but some dogs are more persistent than others. My soft and submissive Border Collie backs off with one word from me should she be caught misbehaving. What you are looking for is the first sign of avoidance (backing down or looking away) and then PRAISE that good behavior. A dog can't learn from corrections alone. If he approaches another dog and does NOT growl or show his teeth, praise that. Part of the deal is that dogs need to know when they're doing something GOOD as well as when they're doing something BAD, otherwise the learning process takes much, much longer.
I have all neutered and spayed animals and have watched MANY get neutered and spayed through the rescue I volunteer for. All neutering and spaying does is take away one of their drives -- the sex drive or the urge to procreate. Many times the removal of testosterone can serve to CALM aggressiveness in a male dog, not make it worse. The lack of sex hormones also will change the way other dogs perceive yours as well -- you'll see a very different reaction if an intact male walks into the room than if a neutered one does. Many dogs go on their guard with an intact male and perceive him as a bit more of a threat.
All I can say is what I see based on what you've written and then compare it to my own experiences. If it is getting to be a problem, I urge you to find a behaviorist in your area to take a look at him and give you his or her opinion. I am not a behaviorist, just a trainer working on learning enough to become certified within the next couple of years.
Also keep in mind that it takes about six weeks for all the testosterone to work itself out of his system.
How recently was he neutered?