Starting a puppy class, small question

jellyfishjellyfish
edited May 2012 in Behavior & Training
Yup, I am a little late. Toki is 8.5 months. The orientation is this Thursday at my vet clinic.

I had a question! I asked the vet assistant is positive reinforcement was taught at the class and she said "the trainer uses verbal commands and works a lot with leashes. The trainer works with bark busters and if he gave away all his secrets, then there would be no reason to work with bark busters"

Um. Is that a yes or no? I'm not really sure how to interpret this answer.

Due to her answer, I'm questioning her knowledge of positive reinforcement, and I'm still learning about it, so, being impatient and excited for this class, I figured I would ask here :)

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • CaliaCalia
    Instead of starting a class with them, why not ask if you can sit in and observe a class. Most trainers, even those that use aversives, will let potential clients watch a class. Not only will this answer your question, but it will give you an idea of what they focus on and how they do it. From what I've heard, Bark Busters does NOT stick to positive reinforcement, and the comment "works a lot with leashes" makes me think that they use leash pops and choke chains. Here is Bark Busters website for you to check out:
    http://www.barkbusters.com/

    If they refuse to at least let you sit in on a class, I would look elsewhere if I were you.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Bark Busters is not positive. It was started in Australia decades ago and reminded me a lot of CM with all the alpha and dominance stuff, and special noises (bahh, say it like you are growling at the dog), shock collars, and throwing things at the dogs (they gave a presentation to everyone at the Vet clinic I worked at).
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    That doesn't sound like positive reinforcement to me. I had not heard of bark busters before, but their thing about pack leadership makes me suspicious.

    You know, one of the things I've noticed is that people who are either "balanced" trainers or esp. those using aversive methods, seem to be really defensive and secretive about it. I've called places before and asked them to be very specific about what kind of positive reinforcement they use, and I've noted those places always get defensive (when all I do is ask) and refuse to tell me. The positive trainers I've found have been forthcoming about their methods. I know it's not across the board, but that's been my experience.

    I would guess this place is not positive reinforcement.
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    That was my suspicion: that they don't practice pos.ref or they practice a lot of other techniques I would find questionable.

    I know for a fact that the vet. assistant does believe in dominance/alpha BS (and likely adores CM), as I listened to her entire speech about Akitas being a dominant breed when I first brought in Toki at 10 wks, or however old he was.

    I hope at orientation I can express my views and what I want from this class (pos. ref.) and get that kind of training....and at this point, I feel I know enough knowledge to defend my standpoints if someone discusses dominance/alpha (largely thanks the CM thread and the rest of the website! :)
    If the trainer is good, he should have possess knowledge of positive reinforcement and respect my views enough to attempt to suit my needs. If not, I am under no obligation to do something to Toki that I don't want to. I decided on this before the vet assistant said this was okay, so at least she seems understanding.




    @lindsayt funny you say that, when I first bought Toki to the clinic, the same vet assistant suggested the same thing: that i say "bahhh" to Toki in a really deep voice, like growling, if he was acting up. I don't think it is coincidence. She is always advocating Bark Busters at the clinic.
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    edited May 2012
    Being secretive about the methods like its some kind of magic trick is a huge red flag to me. It doesn't matter if its positive reinforcement or not - if someone takes the class and isn't told how the "trick" works or doesn't have full understanding of what s/he is doing, how can s/he apply it at home? Without knowing why, how can s/he be sure that its going to illicit the desired behavior modification? What is to stop him/her from accidentally making the problem /worse/ due to lack of understanding?

    Training classes in my area are generally no refunds after the first session - which is usually without dogs or any kind of actual training, which means you often don't see hands-on the methods that will be used in class. The methods are explained up front, however, and you will be told what materials you need in the first session (eg. treats, clicker, choke chain, etc will tell you a lot about the class). Since they wont tell you the methods, I wouldn't give these people your money until you've watched a class session. If they wont let you watch a session, all the more reason to stay away. Get your money back from them while you still can.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited May 2012
    Ditto on Poeticdragon's view....shouldn't be a secret and like any instructor he/she should be able to tell you clearly in clear terms what their course is about and how the achieve their objectives.

    Snf
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    "The trainer works with bark busters and if he gave away all his secrets, then there would be no reason to work with bark busters"
    Ah yes, all those secrets of dog training that are available for free on Dog Start Daily and wikipedia's articles on Learning Theory, Classical Conditioning, and Operant Conditioning.

    When I was in school this thought process was abundant with the students. The "I don't want to show you how I did this because then you will no my secrets and take away from my marketability" approach to a career. I hate it. When will people learn that it's not the tools that make you the best, it your ability to use the tools. Ya know?

    It's a pet-peeve of mine.

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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited May 2012
    oops, got a phone call while before I made that post so I didn't see @poeticdragon @StaticNfuzz posts
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    So what does everyone think about leash pops and prong collars?

    I was singled out to be the only person to bring a prong collar.... I'm dubious. I don't think Toki is that out of control to use a prong collar. He just likes to sniff bushes and pulls just a little.

    Part of me wants to take the class to learn how to properly use a prong and choke collar, the other part says I don't want to risk damage to my dog. I'm sleepy and stressed, or I would do more research at the moment. But I would still really love opinions or links to other threads that'd be helpful.

    And yea, bark busters is a lot like CM >_>
  • CaliaCalia
    Problem with dog trainers is that you don't have to actually know what you are doing in order to become one (CM for example). Many trainers will use prong/choke/shock collar, but that doesn't mean they know how to use it properly. That increases the risks of screwing up your dog emotionally, especially if they convince you that their poor way of using an aversive is the only/right way (even though it isn't).
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    edited June 2012
    If you're not comfortable with or don't agree with any kind of training, don't do it.

    I think prong collars have their place like any other tool. I neither recommend nor discourage the use; but if you choose to use one, please make sure it is fitted correctly. If you have any doubts, you can post photos of Toki wearing it and someone on this board can say if it is right.

    I dislike the mentality of people who say to only use a prong collar as a "last resort" for an "out of control" dog. The implication is that they believe prong collars are generally inhumane, yet will still use them if desperate enough. If I believe something is harmful to my dog, I will never use it no matter how "out of control" the dog is. If I think something is safe and effective, then I will use it appropriately and often - it's not effective if its not used.


  • shibamistressshibamistress
    edited June 2012
    I would not work with a trainer who insisted on a prong collar, period. Esp. not on a young dog. Leash pops are very old school and are not positive training,

    I'd get out of this class before I ever got in it. I simply would not submit my dogs to that kind of stuff. And in my mind, if they suggest a prong collar for a puppy, they are really out of line. I would never use a prong collar on a pup.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    A puppy class trainer recommending a prong collar seems a little nuts to me.
  • aykayk
    edited June 2012
    I've used both on PoongSoon (70+ lbs) after she became equipment adverse when I tried to wean her off of the gentle leader. She knew there was such a thing as a walk without wearing the gentle leader and she wanted that.

    On the first day on the prong, she was like "what is this?" and minded her manners, but then she kinda became desensitized a few days after. I asked my other "big dog" friends about this and they said to pop a correction on the prong. The thing for PoongSoon was that I would have to do a pretty hard one.

    I fell back onto the choke chain. I guess I'm just too old and ingrained with it, but to me, when the dog is doing fine, I think it offers more of a free sensation than with a prong that has to be snug high on the neck all the time. On a scale of 1 to 10, I envision the prong starting at 5 at neutral and then up to 9 in correction. The choker is more like 2 and then up to 7 for the way I apply it. I refuse to hang a dog, pester a dog, or jerk hard enough to throw off a dog's position. I use the choker for training during walks, not restraining during walks. If a dog is mentally too young for (formal/proofing) training, they're too young for the choker.


  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited June 2012
    Was there any particular reason the trainer gave why you should use a prong on your puppy/young dog? Was there an evaluation done already to review how you handle your dog currently, or is this trainer merely recommending it based on the breed you have? I am assuming you have an Akita. What age is your dog?

    If you are having some trouble controlling your dog and he/she is over a certain weight 65lbs or so and/or there are problems with your dog towards other canines, then maaaybe (big maybe) I can see the use of it as an option. It has to be determined on a case by case situation.

    Generally I would not start off that way at all though to begin foundation training since in the early stages of foundation work one really should work on skills which should not involve leash pops or chokes at all. It should mostly focus on handling and timing on the owners part as the leash remains as invisible (mentally) as possible as dogs learns to work with you cooperatively. (This is my way and the what I seek in training)

    However, in this trainers case, who knows what their intent is if the instructor was not willing to explain what they do to begin with before you registered. Pros and cons of prongs, some dogs do not really mind the feel a prong. But honestly why go that direction if that is the case since it really won't be that effective to begin with, you might as well have started with a more positive method anyway. If you dog is sensitive then leash reactivity due to incorrect management by new to use owners of tool can spur on problems in reactivity or misuse ...often when on feels excessive force is necessary to get point across. Why even go there. Not to say you would be like this but new to training people do make a lot of mistakes and having non prong or chokes allows for a leeway without punishing the dog for our own idiocy. Been there done that eons ago. We all have at some point. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying.

    Personally it does not sound that great. If it were me I would look elsewhere for my Akita so you do not set up for reactivity or shut down behavior (depends on the dog). Find a trainer that is a little more diverse in their thinking.

    I am assuming you are in the U.S. If so look to a trainer at http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4

    Snf

    PS: Oh forgot to mention.....recently I was at a training seminar and the issue of comfort was brought up in terms of training tools for dogs in regard to pain intensity and physical pressure such as a prong. Apparently for most dogs in the use of such a tool, after 20 minutes the body neurologically tends to desensitize and then the pressure has to be increased so on and so on. After a certain point it can only go so high and then you have tool failure. So this is the reason why it is often best to go from least aversive to begin with for a given case for starters.
  • aykayk
    In my last puppy class run by positive trainers who converted from the old 'choke and jerk' method, one owner could not control her exuberant Rhodesian ridgeback who was already older and bigger than the other puppies in the class. He could literally pull her off her chair while on a martingale. She had to move up to a prong collar.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited June 2012
    [Edit] previous info irrelevent so removed it.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited June 2012
    I disagree with @poeticdragon's statement regarding her dislike for the mentality of people who say to only use a prong collar as a "last resort" for an "out of control" dog.'

    She writes...

    I dislike the mentality of people who say to only use a prong collar as a "last resort" for an "out of control" dog. The implication is that they believe prong collars are generally inhumane, yet will still use them if desperate enough. If I believe something is harmful to my dog, I will never use it no matter how "out of control" the dog is. If I think something is safe and effective, then I will use it appropriately and often - it's not effective if its not used.

    I think the assumption that people who feel this way view prong collars as generally inhumane is not always the case and is an over-generalization.

    For example, I do feel that prong collars should be used as a "last resort". I feel this way because I view them as what they are - a punishment tool. I am a firm believer in reward-based training first. I think that reward-based techniques should be used FIRST. If the desired result is not achieved by these reward-based techniques, then the use of punishment *might* be a viable addition to the training program.

    At that point, if punishment-based training is to be used, it should first be in the form of negative punishment and not positive punishment (like a prong collar). Then, if the combination of reward-based training and negative punishment are not having the desired result perhaps a positive punishment technique can be employed - hints being used as a last resort.

    I'd even argue that the positive punishment technique should be of the type that requires the user to give the punishment, not a tool that punishes the dog for the handler, the way a prong collar does. I view a device like a prong collar as more a management tool NOT a training tool. A prong collar is design to punish the dog for pulling on the lead - the punishment requires NOTHING from the handler. Similar to an electric fence, or a bark collar... These tools are used for management of an unwanted behavior NOT as training tools.

    You see, in short, it's not that I find prong collars to be "generally inhumane", when used as a first resort, I find them to be a tool for the lazy.

    And that is exactly this situation - this is a trainer in the early part of a puppy class suggesting the use of a prong collar for a puppy without trying or suggestion any other techniques first. That's lazy, and not training - it's management. This teaches the puppy or the owner NOTHING. This is simply the trainer suggesting a method for managing a potential behavior - as a first resort!!!

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  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Great points, well said Brad

    Snf
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    edited June 2012
    Good points Brad. And I was interested in Ayk's post too. It's clear already I don't like prong collars them and view them negatively, but I am still interested in hearing how they might be used correctly, so this post explained it (I suspect they are often used incorrectly).

    But I believe they could be harmful for a puppy, and as Brad pointed out, there is no reason to try one on a dog unless other methods have failed. (I don't know that I'd use one even then--but I would at least understand how other people arrived at that method).
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    edited June 2012
    i have a lot to think about, thanks to everyone who commented; really helpful. After having a night to think about orientation, I can't help but have a sour taste in my mouth. I mean, the guy bragged about throwing a dog in the air with a prong collar on during attack training. As in like, a leash pop that literally threw the dog so off balance, the dog did a flip in the air. He said the dog wasn't hurt and continued doing what he was doing like nothing happened. I can't comment if this is true, but it seems too old school for me. I can't help but wonder if punishment based training and force teaches the dog to be fearful of their owner, so they do things out of fear.

    @StaticNfuzz Your are correct, Toki is a japanese akita. He is 8.5 months old. He said I needed a prong collar because of Toki's size and age, saying that he is bigger than me. He has not seen Toki at all. I'm small statured and short, so I think this also weighed in. I do not think 24" or 25'' tall, 70 pounds is a big dog (Toki), which, I would consider a 27", 100+ dog to be big. But either way, I guess both warrant the owner needing to control their dog, somehow. He does really well with other dogs, regardless of gender, but this was not brought up. For all the other puppies, he said to bring a choke chain....all the other puppies were 12 wks or so. Isn't this too young????

    -In controlling him, I question the use of a prong, but not cause a prong is a prong....Toki doesn't pull that much. The leash is usually taunt, but he isn't desperately pulling. If he wanted to go somewhere, he could pull me. Having said that, he does not. Toki has even gotten to the point where he will stop at the end of his leash and watch the bird fly away instead of trying to pull me across the yard.

    -On walks, he pulls just a little bit, and often times will correct himself, but then go back to pulling just a little bit. Annoying, but not a big issue.

    -Toki usually walks in front, but if I change directions, he will easily follow. The biggest issue is the sniffing. Once he is in sniffing mode, it is very hard to distract him. That is what I want work with the most. But is there another way other than prong, choke, or whatever other form of positive punishment?



    .......So having stated my situation, I should rephrase my statement about prong collars. I am not adverse to them, but I don't think that they are what I should be using at the moment. I believe that Toki needs mild correction in the form of positive reinforcement for the mild issues he has. I believe that you should do the minimal amount of correction first, then work your way up if that doesn't work. If I am wrong, then I will explore positive punishments, but I hope I am right.





    Of course, I love to play devils advocate; i love seeing other people's points of views and then making my own, educated decision. Part of me really does want to learn how to properly use these tools, because I really do believe, that used correctly, they can work. There is a place and time for them. However, I am still figuring out if *now* is the time. I'm thinking maybe I should explore other options first. And a lot of positive reinforcement trainers are not in the southern area of Dallas, but I am willing to drive.
  • timkimtimkim
    I don't see point of prong collar. i tried and I was fine with choke chain. but still it was too hard for my dogs w/ choke chain. so i changed it to nylon choke. and now I changed it to regular collar.
    i bought choke chain when I first got my pup. main reason was "look". My first female's behavior was fine. so never had problem with choke chain since she never pulls or do some other stuff. But after i got my male, he is still pulling but not bad as before. but choke chain didn't work for me. it was actually hurting my pup. and I can't imagine if I used prong since he will keep pulling even if it hurts him.
    now I'm using regular collar and i just stopped walking if he start pulling and wait till he calm down. and slowly walk again. i kept doing that and he is getting better.

    I think it will be fine if you find out the right way to train your dog. you don't really need any tools if you or your trainer knows how to train them. just regular leash is fine.

    just my thought.
  • PoetikDragonPoetikDragon
    edited June 2012
    @brada1878 Great points, I hadn't looked at it that way. I still don't agree, but its nice to see such a well-thought out argument.

    If it is only a management tool... so what? So is a leash. A leash doesn't train a dog, it keeps the dog from running away. 95% of owners and dogs will never graduate or train for being off leash, and in most suburban places its illegal anyway.

    I personally feel that choke chains are more cruel and damaging than prong collars used correctly. A choke chain has to be able to slide over the dog's head to put it on, which means it has too much slack to be used effectively. It requires a significant amount of contraction, which in turn requires more force (a jerk or "pop") to deliver quickly. A correctly fit prong collar requires almost no contraction. To use @ayk's numbers above, she suggested that a choke chain goes from a 2 to a 7 (net of +5)... a properly fit prong collar should only go up +1.

    A European slip lead works like a choke chain but is soft rope and can be adjusted to have very little slack, so that's what I use most of the time. Bonus: I don't have to fumble with putting on a choke or prong or trying to clip the leash to the dog's collar.

    EDIT: Here's the slip lead I have: http://www.amazon.com/Mendota-Products-Chocolate-8-Inch-6-Feet/dp/B001FOJKRO. The little brown tab can be slid up and down the lead to adjust the maximum size of the part around the head/neck.
  • aykayk
    edited June 2012
    @jellyfart - I agree that trainer is so wrong for your dog (and even most dogs). I also agree that a prong or choke is overkill for Toki.

    @poeticdragon - I haven't found that using a choke that barely fits over the head to be too long to be ineffective. Though I will lift the choke and keep a little tension on it so it stays just under the jaw when I'm in close traffic, I don't mind when it drops down for other times. It's not a significant delay in timing, and I actually like that the dog has the option to respond to the sound rather than the feeling of the choke.

    I have seen really long chokes on dogs though that I just have to agree is too ineffective. It's like 6 inches to a foot of extra length. I've noticed that most of those people aren't into dog training though and just want a collar that the dog can't back out of during walks. I guess they hadn't yet discovered that a dog can actually escape from those long chokes as well.

    EDIT: I wasn't really referring to size when I used the scale. It was more level of burden/discomfort/adversion.
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    @poeticdragon I actually have a rope slip lead like yours I got at a dog show but it rarely gets used. Though, I would prefer to use that over a choke chain because of the little brown tab. I'm not adverse to it either, I just find the flat collar easier to go on walks with. So, my slip lead is a backup.

    @ayk i am glad you think it is overkill. thanks for the feedback
  • CarabooACarabooA
    It is very important that a choker fit the dog correctly. I've never owned a dog with such a large head that I had to get a choker that was too big for the neck, but maybe that is what you were referring too @poeticdragon?

    All of my dogs have started with a choker (when old enough) Ki might actually never need anything other than the martingale with her training. By the time we start training with a choker, I actually don't even have to "choke snap" it's more of the sound like what @ayk is talking about and a short tug, for Mirra especially it's a jiggle of the collar. My heeler was a little harder when in the "heeler zone" and not as sensitive as the dogs we currently have, but I kinda attribute that to my changes in training techniques over the years as well as the differences in the breeds.

    But from what you've said @jellyfart - it sounds like Toki just needs reward typed training for what you are doing. Sounds like you're just trying to refine what you've already been teaching him and once he learns what you want he'll be anxious to do it for you!
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    @carabooA yes! exactly, "refine what you've already been teaching him". That is the best way I could put it. (i'm not very good with words, but I try ;)
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    edited June 2012
    I would not use a choke collar on a puppy for basic training. It your case it does not sound like it needs to be in place. Not a good way to start out for keeping a thinking dog willingly motivated. Choke collars can also be harmful the thinner they get and improperly use. If the trainer is bragging about flipping a dog in the name of training that as merely sadistic....I would be so outta there!!!

    Would like to make the point that a "management tool" is just that and should not be there to merely initiate absolute control for training. A leash is there for back up but should be transparent in working with a dog. Just as the repel lines of rock climbers are there for safety, the leash is just the back up. Sounds far fetched to some but it really is about the dog choosing to do what it needs to do willingly without force or ever knowing that force or particular aversive is there. The tools are just "stuff", like helmets, knee pads and gloves. You have if you need to but don't get too crutched on them to do the communicating. It least that is my training approach and one that has worked for me over the years. I know there are others that have an entirely different view.

    Snf
  • jellyfishjellyfish
    alright. cancelled. I think I could find better. I feel a lot more relieved now.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    edited June 2012
    @poeticdragon - It's true, like a prong collar, a leash can be seen as a management tool too. And Yes, approx. 95% of all dog owners use a leash. Same applies to a food bowl. However, the difference is a leash (and maybe a food bowl) is also a necessity for that 95% of dog owners - a prong collar is not.

    I don't buy the "owner couldn't control a 70lb dog" thing either, a little training I'm sure could have fixed that. I also don't buy that a prong collar is needed for a JA because they are large... They're not that big...

    Jen, my wife, weighs 100lbs and can walk Kodi (160lbs), Luytiy (140lbs), Masha (125lbs), Parka (130lbs), Blue (115lbs) - all of which are larger and more powerful than a JA - and she can walk any of our 16 Nihon Ken w/o the use of a prong collar and not be dragged or knocked over. As can I, and I weigh 150lbs. We don't own a single prong collar...

    I can see, and have heard of, a situation where a prong collar might be a necessity - like with a disabled owner, or something like that. But that's a rare situation and would represent a very very small percentage of your 95% number.

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