@brada1878 - Because I'm feeling a little dig there, can I ask if Jen can control Blue or Masha if she happens to run across an off-leash dog during her solo walks? Have you re-instated them as trail dogs?
I personally think that all training tools for animals should be considered an extension of your arm/hand etc.... Sometimes people can detach from their actions because they don't think they are in direct physical contact so they are not as personally responsible for what is going on. A tool in and of itself is not harmful. It is always the user of the tool that can create a rewarding experience or one that will ultimately harm the animal. ) Edit: I however, do not ever want to use and/or have a prong collar. My personal pref.
@ayk - Oh, I wasn't making a dig at you Ann. Sorry. I can see why you read it like that... I was just paraphrasing a typical comment I read/hear from clients (of Jen's) who have been using a prong collar - was not directed at you. sorry....
Really, I am probably coming off like an ass (as usual), but I don't mean to be. I was only trying to share another side of the prong collar debate.
As for your question, Masha and Parka hike with us often, if we see someone coming and start to feel a reaction coming on from them, we turn and walk the other way (which is a form of punishment).
Blue, we don't hike with in public areas (he's a dog/coyote killer - too risky), but he does go on walks with us every day around here and is pretty good - we use the same method with him - turn and walk away and re-navigate a way to where we were headed.
Jen or I can walk them, and this works for both of us. Also, Jen carries treats with her in a pouch... I think that helps a lot with Blue. He sees the pouch and knows he is "working".
We switch off on who walks the big ones as one of us usually has Chase on our back. It's a bit risky to walk a big dog with Chase on our back.
Luytiy is probably the worst on lead, he is always pulling... at least for me. He walks really well for Jen tho. lol
Somewhat of a tangent - at the last class I took (my first experience with a positive reinforcement class) they taught loose leash walking in a strange way. First we taught our dogs to touch the palm of our hands with their noses for a reward. (The dogs quickly learned to nudge hands for treats like some kind of automated vending machine, lol.) Then we started moving the hand away from the dogs and asking them to have to walk towards it to touch and get a treat. Then we started walking backwards with our hands out, treating every time the dog touched it roughly every 2-3 steps. Then when we were at a good clip walking backwards we would spin around and walk forwards in the same direction, removing the hand and just treating the dog as long as it remained by our side. If the dog ever got ahead of us, we would turn in another direction before the leash became tight; the dog would then be behind us and have to run a bit to catch up. Once back by our side, treat and continue.
Mosura really enjoyed it, but was too smart for her own good. We couldn't do the walk-backwards-and-then-spin-around part. When I would turn she would run around in front of me and face me, because that's what the first part of the exercise had taught her to do. Silly pup! So the trainer had us discontinue walking backwards at all and just practice with her starting at my side. She liked that part - treats kept coming from heaven just for walking around! Her favorite trick to practice is being "Mrs. PacMan." Nom-nom-nom!
lol that sounds great!! @poeticdragon!! How fun! I like learning all I can from you guys here, because I am not finding any positive reinforcement teachers around here. They aren't totally old school, but not 100% modern positive training either... I'll have to improvise in some of our classes I think...
That's a great technique, PoeticDragon! I'm going to try it.
I'm with Brad here....I don't think of a prong collar as "just" a management tool. I believe it is a punishment tool (positive punishment, right? rather than negative punishment of taking something away?) I do not want to train my dogs this way. I also will not use a choke collar. But actually, I've come around to not using collars at all for walking (except for a martingale on one of my dogs that does not pull) because I believe they all can cause damage to the trachea if the do is pulling against them. I suppose if a prong collar was working correctly it would, possibly, cause the least damage, but I still do not want to use them, and I believe you can train dogs without them.
Also, I don't do any "leash pops" type training and don't think it is necessary. It's very old school, and I personally, think there are better ways to train your dog. Leash pops, "choke" or "prong" collars are all enough to make me stay far way from a trainer.
What you describe of the trainer teaching target and heeling can also be used in basic Agility foundation training. Both of my Shibas have learned to stay by the side because they are heavily reinforced to stay there and moves with me holding that position. However, I do not use hand touch to teach this behavior.
The "walk-backwards-and-then-spin-around part" is harder for dogs as they need to have some rear-awareness and understand how to use those muscles to turn tight with you or go backwards. Koji is especially good with this and will constantly get back to that heel position in class when we are just standing there and waiting for our turn. I sometime have to put him away in the crate, so he can get some rest because he is so eager to keep trying and offer me different behaviors.
I should get that on video someday as it is really cute.
The "walk-backwards-and-then-spin-around" is referring to the human walking backwards and then spinning. The dog is continuing the momentum in going forward but now to the human's side.
We use a "follow" command to start and then gradually add in a "heel."
@poeticdragon We learned about the hand thing in orientation today! I got really excited and thought I should tell you. it made me happy that I'll eventually get to work with him with this method
As an update, I am super stoked that I am in a positive reinforcement class. I found one last minute and class and orientation started today. Toki was really stressed out but warmed up a lot through the class, so I know this can only be good for him. I couldn't imagine putting a prong or doing hard leash pops on a stressed out dog like he was today. (though, he was stressed cause I had to leave him in a crate prior to the obienve class cause I was in orientation)
My friend went to a dog class today to see if she wanted to take the next one offered, and they said they were "positive" but apparently their idea of "positive" was that the dogs got lured with treats. But they also did leash pops, and my friend said some people had prong collars and some slip collars (and others were just in harnesses). Some people were jerking their dogs around by the leash, and were getting no instruction from the trainer.
Yea, that is def not positive reinforcement. I feel her frustration and I am glad she moved on. she will be really happy she did
The place I found is strictly positive, and they don't lure with treats. They want the dog to offer first, instead of being bribed. Which I find awesome, in addition to no leash pops or training collars.
I don't mind luring the dog with treats, though I know some trainers--esp. some clicker trainers--will only go with the "capture" method. For me, the luring helps speed along the process, and esp. with young pups, help them focus. It's how I always teach "sit" "down" etc. It's just easier for me and quicker. But I know a lot of trainers don't do it.
But the rest of the stuff my friend saw was absolutely not positive, and frankly, I wouldn't even trust them to do the luring right if they though leash pops with a prong collar were "positive." My friend said she saw a woman jerking around a Boston Terrier! I mean those dogs are tiny!
We used luring in our positive reinforcement class. The capture method is fine if the dog ever happens to do that thing you want it to do (or is already partially trained)... But luring is faster, especially if the lure is similar to the eventual hand sign you are going to use. Of course, we removed the lure as quickly as possible from the training.
Comments
A tool in and of itself is not harmful. It is always the user of the tool that can create a rewarding experience or one that will ultimately harm the animal.
Edit: I however, do not ever want to use and/or have a prong collar. My personal pref.
Really, I am probably coming off like an ass (as usual), but I don't mean to be. I was only trying to share another side of the prong collar debate.
As for your question, Masha and Parka hike with us often, if we see someone coming and start to feel a reaction coming on from them, we turn and walk the other way (which is a form of punishment).
Blue, we don't hike with in public areas (he's a dog/coyote killer - too risky), but he does go on walks with us every day around here and is pretty good - we use the same method with him - turn and walk away and re-navigate a way to where we were headed.
Jen or I can walk them, and this works for both of us. Also, Jen carries treats with her in a pouch... I think that helps a lot with Blue. He sees the pouch and knows he is "working".
We switch off on who walks the big ones as one of us usually has Chase on our back. It's a bit risky to walk a big dog with Chase on our back.
Luytiy is probably the worst on lead, he is always pulling... at least for me. He walks really well for Jen tho. lol
----
Mosura really enjoyed it, but was too smart for her own good. We couldn't do the walk-backwards-and-then-spin-around part. When I would turn she would run around in front of me and face me, because that's what the first part of the exercise had taught her to do. Silly pup! So the trainer had us discontinue walking backwards at all and just practice with her starting at my side. She liked that part - treats kept coming from heaven just for walking around! Her favorite trick to practice is being "Mrs. PacMan." Nom-nom-nom!
I hope to get to meet her one day! She seems like she has such a big personality
That's a great technique, PoeticDragon! I'm going to try it.
I'm with Brad here....I don't think of a prong collar as "just" a management tool. I believe it is a punishment tool (positive punishment, right? rather than negative punishment of taking something away?) I do not want to train my dogs this way. I also will not use a choke collar. But actually, I've come around to not using collars at all for walking (except for a martingale on one of my dogs that does not pull) because I believe they all can cause damage to the trachea if the do is pulling against them. I suppose if a prong collar was working correctly it would, possibly, cause the least damage, but I still do not want to use them, and I believe you can train dogs without them.
Also, I don't do any "leash pops" type training and don't think it is necessary. It's very old school, and I personally, think there are better ways to train your dog. Leash pops, "choke" or "prong" collars are all enough to make me stay far way from a trainer.
What you describe of the trainer teaching target and heeling can also be used in basic Agility foundation training. Both of my Shibas have learned to stay by the side because they are heavily reinforced to stay there and moves with me holding that position. However, I do not use hand touch to teach this behavior.
The "walk-backwards-and-then-spin-around part" is harder for dogs as they need to have some rear-awareness and understand how to use those muscles to turn tight with you or go backwards. Koji is especially good with this and will constantly get back to that heel position in class when we are just standing there and waiting for our turn. I sometime have to put him away in the crate, so he can get some rest because he is so eager to keep trying and offer me different behaviors.
I should get that on video someday as it is really cute.
We use a "follow" command to start and then gradually add in a "heel."
As an update, I am super stoked that I am in a positive reinforcement class. I found one last minute and class and orientation started today. Toki was really stressed out but warmed up a lot through the class, so I know this can only be good for him. I couldn't imagine putting a prong or doing hard leash pops on a stressed out dog like he was today. (though, he was stressed cause I had to leave him in a crate prior to the obienve class cause I was in orientation)
She decided to keep looking for another place.
The place I found is strictly positive, and they don't lure with treats. They want the dog to offer first, instead of being bribed. Which I find awesome, in addition to no leash pops or training collars.
But the rest of the stuff my friend saw was absolutely not positive, and frankly, I wouldn't even trust them to do the luring right if they though leash pops with a prong collar were "positive." My friend said she saw a woman jerking around a Boston Terrier! I mean those dogs are tiny!