Just to point out, I DO see full Japanese Akita in the AKC show rings in my area. Not common, but there are more of them as time goes by, which is nice, because it gives the judges something really special to examine.
Ya I am starting to think that given enough time everyone will regard AKC Akita's as mixed cuz you just can't tell with out through investigation what you are getting even with their American Akita you can't trust it has not JA in it. My next JA will be AKIHO. Like is posted before Ares is AKC Registered and his parent were imported from poland.(So it is happening) just not with AKIHO bread puppys) I didn't know about the UKC. Ares is a pet he is fixed so it don't matter cuz I can't show him. I wish I could though cuz it would be fun. Those who are not smart enough to start "fixing their lines" now deserve to be left out when AKC conform's to what the rest of the world is doing. The article that Loren_Egland posted gives lots of reasons why AKC wouldn't change. I just don't think any of those reasons are good enough. I wonder who got to vote in the ACA. Was it all Akita owners or every member, or just the board of directors? Cuz if it is every member, it seems there were to many people that didn't have enough info to vote. Which is how a certain someone got into office. LOL
I would love to see the breed split but not at the expense of some akitas being excluded just because their pedigree isn't someones idea of pure. When AKC splits the breed I would happily accept it. *Ya I am starting to think that given enough time everyone will regard AKC Akita's as mixed cuz you just can't tell with out through investigation what you are getting even with their American Akita you can't trust it has not JA in it- gimme a break. There are plenty of AA breeders who check their pedigrees to make sure no JA are in it.
transfering akiho to akc is not that hard. you can send akiho pedigree to JKC and they will send you JKC for your dog. will take long time and money but it is possible and not hard.
@timkim JKC will not issue a pedigree for someone who is not a member/kennel in Japan. There is only one exception that I know of in the US able to get JKC pedigrees for his AKIHO dogs. So no, you can't go AKIHO -> JKC -> AKC. Two of my dogs came with JKC export pedigrees, so I could get them AKC registered if I wanted (I don't, now that we have UKC). Mosura does not have an export pedigree, however, so there is no possible way for her to be AKC.
@T_Dog If your dog's pedigree meets the requirements for a purebred Japanese Akita, you can show Ares in the altered class with UKC next year. There are also plenty of other activities besides conformation you can do with an altered dog, like agility.
I keep seeing people say that they are worried about dogs being excluded.
If AKC Akita stays the same then you will not be excluded. One of the prime arguememts by those that do not want to split is that the dogs are doing fine in the current breed. As you saw in Loren's article ACA doesn't have the 2/3 rds to split. So those akitas will have a home as long as ACA allows it.
Plus dont forget that some feel that JA and blends "meet" the current AKC standard. So a new breed wouldn't hurt those folks because they could still show under the standard that already works for them.
@T_Dog i think it is awesome your next pup will be AKIHO registered! In regards to your comment about AKC akitas being mixed/can't tell without a thorough investigation.... I don't think I can agree on the basis that if someone can't provide a pedigree that contains all american akitas, then they shouldn't be allowed to show/register. There shouldn't have to be an investigation, either you have proof or you don't. Buuut that is if the split happens, and so forth. Either way, both are beautiful dogs, even a few of the tweenies!
@jellyfart, I had a well thought out response but when I went to upload from my phone I lost it so here is a shorter response with pictures since I am on my computer now. Here is Ares pedigree so I don't have to type it out I will show a picture. Ares pedigree is AKC so since he is fairly clearly a JA with good lines, based only on the registries in his lineage, and the fact that his parents are from Poland. But the problem is he is AKC registered and so are his parents, this is a red flag. Since he is AKC it don't tell me if his parents were JA, I can only assume based on the registries in the past generations and the fact that the breed was split. Problem is I will need to go through all his parents and grandparents pedigrees to see if they have any AA in them. I may be able to pay to get further generations from AKC but I am not sure. Just the fact that he has other registries then AKIHO I have been informed that because of the dates that these registries split their breeds I can not be guaranteed that before is it 1992? I don't remember the date. There may be AA since the breed was not split then. I would imagine and I could be wrong but. One would probably have to go back that far at minimum to prove an AKC AA has pure lines w/out JA. (I know it is "ok" for AKC to have mixes. But I would rather have an Akita weather AA or JA that has pure lines as a standard. I repeat I would rather it be a standard that you cant mix. why simple, I have a pretty good JA but because of all this breed split stuff, I now have to investigate to see how pure his line is. and this is precisely why registries were created to keep people from dropping the wrong breed into a pure line. Now I know that there is a chance that Ares is not with out AA in his lines, I can prove that the AA was not in the last three generations. But if he were AKIHO I would not have to do all this. I did know what I was buying and unless my pedigree was faked I got what I paid for, an AKC registered puppy with pretty good lines. I also want everyone to know I have nothing against tweenies. I am just pro-split.
@T_Dog thanks for the pedigree! And I see what you mean with your uncertainty. you are right that if you had to be certain, you would have to find his extended lineage. Some you can trace 10 or more generations back, some I am guessing you wont. I wouldn't know how to help you on that part. Either way, Ares is an awesome looking dog; i love his face! Especially his squinty eyes.
Ya your right I will probably never search further, after all he is just a pet, I have not been showing him, he is fixed. I have heard that I may be able to show in other classes or something. I was told one time I would probably have to go to California and I live in Iowa.
I don't agree that AKC Akitas are mixed. Some may be tweenies, or JAs showed in AKC, but the vast majority of Akitas I see in AKC shows are American Akitas. They are only "mixed" in the way all American Akitas are, in that the breed has its roots in Japan. And as was noted above, the lineage proves it: someone should be able to look at the papers and tell.
And most of the AKC (AA) people I've talked to are in fact in favor of the split. They know they are two different breeds now.
Ya if they split then from that day on I believe a tweenie would legitimately be a mixed breed. One would no longer be able take a JA and Mix it with an AA. But I think with the AKC AA standard the ones that are currently tweenies would wind up being called an AA, which they already have the privilege of being, and any future breedings would not allow mixing. So the AA's with JA that get labeled AA would wind up say 10 generations down the line with even thinner amount of JA blood in the lines untill there is no trace of it, because it can no longer legitimately be contaminated with JA lines. So @shibamisteress is right they are not yet called "mixed" in the AKC.
Did you mean to say @shibamisteress when you said "They are only "mixed" in the way all American Akitas are, in that the breed has its roots in Japan." That the AA through history ever since it was made has been a mix of the Dewa line and the Congo line. I think you are probably right, that is the way I understood the text, also.
Dewa is JA and Congo is AA is this a true statement? I sometimes don't remember the text as well as I would like. Pictures make threads better:))
It's a lazy habit to refer to the AKC Akita as a mix breed or a breed of mixes. I'm guilty of it because it is a quick and easy way to describe the situation. Since the only effective mechanism to determine if an Akita is a JA, is by looking at the pedigree. In the end it cheapens the AA stock already in this country at the same time casts doubts on the AKC registered Japanese Akitas in the US.
We need to look at the AA/JA as dogs who have been shaped by events. Not the evolution of two lines of Akita. This is important because the foundation stock of Akitas in the US do contain both lines. Back then it was common to see Akitas with akiho numbers imported into ACA then eventually AKC.
The closing of the studbook to imports by AKC and the shift by the majority of Akita fanciers(In Japan) towards the modern JA, are the key events here. The American Akita evolved for over twenty years without imports. During this time you begin to see the predecessors of the modern JA starting to win in the Akiho ring.
Shibamistress hit the nail on the head. The current AKC Akita is a reflection of the early restoration period in Japan. All three types of Akita - Fighting, Shepard, and Mountain (I'm going with the simple names here sorry) are allowed to mingle with each other. To me, the classical American Akita is a snapshot of the early post WWII dogs in Japan. Overtime they were improved into what we have today. It is foolish to ignore the historical significance of these dogs.
@T_Dog going back to where you posted your pedigree. Yes there is a chance that you have pre-1992 dogs in your pedigree. It doesn't really matter because the guidelines that FCI setup allowed Ares to be registered as FCI Akita-Inu. The FCI plan worked for Europe. My understanding is that the phenotype judging was a complete cluster. A FCI plan would not work here, simply because the AA and JA have had a chance to develop and additional 14 years since the FCI split.
I believe I'm the one who made that comment on facebook. It was intended to be more of an FYI than anything negative.
@*jackburton* ha! i was just about to post the same thing, sort of. For some reason, I remembered....I read on one of my old threads where you posted about the history of the akitas and was going to link to it instead of reiterating it in my own, jumbled words, in response to "why america has to go and recreate". There really wasn't a recreation, but an improvement on a line of Akita that was already in existence.
Simply put the ACA (Akita Club of America) is the parent club and gardian of the AKC Akita. They are in charge of that breed. As a club they have voted to not got into two breeds. So the question becomes why force them? We shouldn't !! It is their club, this is America and they should be allowed to administer their breed.
There is nothing worse in this country when one group tries to force another group. Instead, I believe in choice, create a second breed in another kennel club, and allow people do choose how they want to go about this. If you don't like the rules of the ACA and AKC Akita head over to UKC and show Japanese Akita. If you don't like Japanese Akita, show AKC. Somebody please tell me why this is bad?
"To remove the many high quality Japanese type Akitas with a large percentage of Japanese lines during a breed split, especially those that are bred up to 3/4, 7/8, 15/16 or more Japanese percentage, seems shortsighted at best. At worst, those who only will consider a 100% Japanese pedigree split appear to be motivated by self interest (ego, power, financial commitment, afraid of the competition, kennel blindness) rather than considering other breeders as a whole or the benefits of genetic diversity and the genetic possibilities for future generations."
In response to the above quote... If the current ACA/AKC Akita isn't working for you may I suggest a third option? How about going into the Continental Kennel Club? http://www.ckcusa.com/registration.aspx . They issue pedigrees with photos and witnesses. You could do all the blends and be free to explore endless genetic combinations. Make a national parent club... The Japanican Akita Club.
Yes, I'm writing the last part in jest but I'm kinda serious too.
To me, the percentage=> diversity viewpoint is similar to the Finns wanting to mix in Shibas into their JAs. It has the same objections as well.
It's doing something against the wishes of the country of origin.
For the Shiba x JA, it's premised on data from the 1990's when blood proteins were analyzed, not various portions of the dogs' DNA, especially the immune-related MHC. Newer breed surveys based on modern technology has to be done to evaluate what the statuses of the breeds (AA, JA) are.
'In response to the above quote... If the current ACA/AKC Akita isn't working for you may I suggest a third option? How about going into the Continental Kennel Club? http://www.ckcusa.com/registration.aspx . They issue pedigrees with photos and witnesses. You could do all the blends and be free to explore endless genetic combinations. Make a national parent club... The Japanican Akita Club.
Yes, I'm writing the last part in jest but I'm kinda serious too.'
I could be wrong, but my undestanding of the Continental Kennel Club is that it was started by puppy mills as a way to bypass AKC since they were trying to get the mills to clean up their act.
In a way I have always felt that JACA was a club started because they didn't completely agree with AKIHO philosophy or AKC rules. If they agreed with either their would be no need for a new club or registering body.
So I believe your suggestion has its merits since others have successfully made their own club in the past.
Often some money is to be made somewhere by some one who will benefit in some way. Follow the money is always worth considering as a partial reason for a many things.
Why would people who own blends and are currently showing AKC want to be moved over into a new Japanese Akita breed? Wouldn't they loose their points and titles?
I agree that JACA doesn't agree with AKC and ACA. I would not define JACA as a registering body. To me Akiho -LA is a branch of the parent club in Japan. So it would be improper for the branch to dictate policy. Plus I like not having to talk "shop" at LA events. JACA, simply gives people who owner Japanese Akitas a breed association to call their own.
First, AKC would have to divide the breed, which is not likely to happen. But if a breed split proposal could get by the ACA membership and AKC would accept the particulars as to how the breed would be divided, I doubt that any titles would be lost. I am not sure about points, as they may also stay, but those are good questions.
The split won't happen unless it is done reasonably. JKC understood that. FCI understood that. The Akita breed was split reasonably in FCI countrys. That is why it was able to be accomplished. In fact, (you may know this) there was even an allowance of 5 additional years for some to make progress in breeding their Akitas toward the more Japanese type after the official FCI Akita breed split. The idea was that no breeding program would be penalized, an ideal the James Crowley of AKC has also agreed with.
Take for example an Akita that is 75% Japanese lines and 25% American lines. Likely this Akita would look more like the Japanese type, and such breeding has even won Best In Show in FCI competition. If you were the owner of a dog of that type, wouldn't you prefer to compete against Akitas that looked similar? Wouldn't you prefer to breed with other dogs of similar type, rather that wash out some of the gains in your breeding program?
100% American line Akitas and blends or tweenies, as people often refer to them, were the back bone of the FCI breed split and have done very well in the Japanese type Akita shows, as have more recent Japanese imports. It all works itself out in the show ring. Quality rises to the top.
This is all just a guess on my part, since you would have to speak with those involved should such a thing ever come to pass. Of course, if the dogs are not AKC registered, the question answers itself.
I now realize my article was a little long and that it was geared toward those who show in AKC. I had hoped it would clear up some of the confusion I have read on this board, but those who come from a different background have not seemed to grasp some of the information and history presented, and that is understandable, especially when it doesn't really affect them anyway.
Blends and Tweenie are no longer needed to do a breed split, that was the deal many years ago, AKC/ACA should have taken that deal. Now it is to late there are many more high quality JA's out there for Americans to buy.
Why would an American buy an AKC JA? I can tell you cuz I bought one. I bought my JA registered AKC cuz I never planned to breed, so I didn't care about quality. That don't mean I was not aware of AKIHO. But when I bought my puppy there were no AKIHO litters to choose from and I didn't wanna wait.
As the numbers of JA grow in the usa through other kennels(trusted kennels) the need for someone like me to buy from AKC will dwindle to zero. It will soon be widely known that if you want a high quality JA you don't get it from an AKC breeder. This opinion is getting popular and will soon infect the opinions on the AA bred from AKC, IF AKC/ACA cant keep the JA line Clean then they cant keep the AA line clean.
I have posted my papers. Ares is clearly of pretty good stock (not the best stock but pretty good). Yet because he is AKC he gets accused of being a tweenie and this is priceless it is the anti-split supporters who are the ones saying this.
The bad thing is now Ares line is AKC and when the last good kennel drops off the pedigree there will be no proof that his line was imported from a pro-split kennel or country.
The breed has been split all around the world except here and with UKC splitting their Akita, the need for AKC to do it becomes smaller and smaller. Soon all of the USA will have access to hi quality UKC registered JA and AKC breeders will not be able to sell their JA because no one will trust that the line is pure..
This is all IMHO, based on my personal experiences and the books and articles I have read. I tried to word it as to not quote any articles. These are only the thoughts that raised from reading some of the above post that I have put into text. I hope this thread serves to educate people who are considering an Akita puppy and want to know where to buy a high quality Akita. After all it was threads like this that made me aware, and conversations with people who knew about the split that helped me make an inform decision about the purchase of my Akita.
If you want a high quality JA buy it from AKIHO and that is what I knew when I bought AKC. I wanted a dog that looked like Ares and I didn't care that he was AKC, I didn't care that he wasn't the best stock out there. But I knew what I needed to know to make an informed decision. If AKC had done the split when everyone else did this wouldn't be an issue.
In reality, the organization that an Akita is registered with has nothing to do with the quality of the animal. Some Akitas are registered with several registering bodies. It is rather the Akita standard that defines the better dogs while those who have experience and an eye for a dog will be able to discern that. A dogs pedigree is also no proof of quality. If it was, people could just submit the paper trail instead of bring their dog to the show to be judged.
You used your dog as an example. Let me use my dog as another example. Her call name was Japan, and she was imported from Japan. She was registered AKIHO and she won the top award available at the L.A. AKIHO show, a rare occurance. The AKIHO judge was from Japan. She also was the first JACA Best In Show winner under the JKC Honorary Chairman Mr. Kariyabu, who was soley responsible for the Akita breed split in FCI. On top of that, she quickly attained her AKC championship at a time when it took at least 16 bitches to win just a 3 point major, the most difficult requirement ever for Akitas in the USA. She was of course JKC and AKC registered as well as AKIHO registered.
At the present time, there are imports from Japan and other FCI countries, and these have been bred 100% Japanese lines and litters AKC registered. Some of these imports are also triple registered. An AKIHO registered Akita simply needs to first be registered with JKC to obtain an AKC registration. I am in contact with different breeders than you are, which explains our different understanding of the present Akita situation and our different expectations about the future.
BTW, the new breed in FCI is American Akita (formerly Great Japanese Dog). Mr. Kariyabu insisted upon keeping the name Akita for their oriental type.
I've re-read the two part posts by Loren and I guess I still don't see the issue.
The UKC isn't forced into a reciprocal agreement with the FCI/JKC and so there won't be the case of an AKC Akita of 75% JA type pedigree going to FCI and then back into UKC as a Japanese Akita.
An owner of an AKIHO dog recently imported from Japan does have the choice to get dual JKC papers and then AKC papers, or they can take the AKIHO papers and get UKC directly. The owner of the dog will have to make a choice in the direction of where he/she wants to go though and stick to it.
They can't straddle both AKC and UKC as breeding a UKC JA to an AKC Akita, even if its to a similar JA type, is breed mixing in the eyes of the UKC. The projeny are not registerable in the UKC.
It is a bit of sementics/politics, but that's the nature of kennel clubs and standardized breeds. I could find an awesome American type Akita in a shelter or on the street and no matter his quality, he could not be a champion. It's nearly the same level of "unfairness" but that's how the rules are played is it not.
T-Dog I agree with your point %blend through may have worked for FCI but as years have gone by, I don't see a need for that either. The UK does not do Phenotype splits. It is pedigree based. Also Australia which is a FCI country that didn't split, is looking to go into two breeds without the Phenotype requirement.
@Loren_Egland,you started with AKIHO which is like the best place to get a JA. Starting with an AKIHO puppy, I can see how your JAkita did so well. Did u register in these different kennels so you could compete in their shows? Did you need to show your pedigree in order to register? or did a judge just look at your Akita and say its an JA and let you register?(Not trying to be smart)
My biggest question is can I go from AKC to AKIHO, or from AKC to JKC or from AKC to JKC to AKIHO with Ares assuming he was intact?
A few more questions, why were registrations even started? Did it have to do with keeping blood lines pure? Do the blood lines being pure suggest good quality? When a dog is breed for many years to have a certain look, and characteristics, temperament, and drive, what is the best way to ensure it stays that way? Is dna and blood lines an important piece of quality? Do you think a tweenie could do what your JA did in the shows? Can I see your pedigree? How old is your JA? How much did you pay for your JA? How long did you wait for the litter or how long were you on the waiting list?
I just think these are good questions to ask someone who has brought their JA so far. You have listed some pretty great accomplishments. I wish I could afford a Akita with such good history. Can you post some pictures?
T_Dog I can answer your question regarding Akiho registration. In order to get a dog registered Akiho three things must happen.
1) Both the Sire and the Dam are Akiho registered. 2) The breeder registered the litter. 3) The breeder is a registered kennel with Akiho-Japan.
So when you look at certain AKC pedigree's you'll see that Akiho numbers are listed on that pedigree. JKC will accept an Akiho pedigree. UKC is going to accept an akiho pedigree. Some fo the countries that are FCI are looking at accepting Akiho pedigree. AKC does not -as you already know.
An Akiho registered JA cannot have any breaks in the registration. So lets say the great grandparents are all akiho after that the registration stops. You cannot register the dog akiho because of the break in registration.
"The JKC will accept an AKIHO pedigree" yes but only if you are a member/resident in Japan from my understanding. Americans can't get JKC pedigrees for their AKIHO litters.
Ya I know that I can't register JKC or AKIHO, because they know the quality of my Akita is not a good enough registry history. I guess I must admit I knew the answer to some of those questions. But if @loren_egland said it, with the experience he has it would hold more weight then say if I said it. Just like when jack says things he clearly knows what he is talking about. I really am interested to see how loren would answer my questions. Because he has done and experienced many things with what sounds like influential people. I am honestly impressed with his Akita, and would love to see pictures. I would really like for everyone who has participated in the thread to plz post pictures of their Akita's. Pictures make a good thread even better;)) I can't remember if loren is pro-split or anti-split? @Loren_Egland , I must apologize I have been spelling your name wrong, I looked you up on this site and found your website, where I realized you are a guy and you have been in the akita business a long time. I gathered that you had knowledge by reading your posts, but I am sorry for my laziness, in not scrolling up to copy your name and not loading more pages sooner to check you out. This laziness comes from using an out dated blackberry phone, with 3g service. On top of that I gotta copy and paste my statements cuz I have to attempt to post several times before it recognizes I typed in a body and have a discussion ID. I do feel bad so I thought I would correct myself. I will go back and correct my post when I can. Jez had to edit an old comment to add this. Cuz I couldn't post.
Comments
@T_Dog If your dog's pedigree meets the requirements for a purebred Japanese Akita, you can show Ares in the altered class with UKC next year. There are also plenty of other activities besides conformation you can do with an altered dog, like agility.
If AKC Akita stays the same then you will not be excluded. One of the prime arguememts by those that do not want to split is that the dogs are doing fine in the current breed. As you saw in Loren's article ACA doesn't have the 2/3 rds to split. So those akitas will have a home as long as ACA allows it.
Plus dont forget that some feel that JA and blends "meet" the current AKC standard. So a new breed wouldn't hurt those folks because they could still show under the standard that already works for them.
In regards to your comment about AKC akitas being mixed/can't tell without a thorough investigation.... I don't think I can agree on the basis that if someone can't provide a pedigree that contains all american akitas, then they shouldn't be allowed to show/register. There shouldn't have to be an investigation, either you have proof or you don't. Buuut that is if the split happens, and so forth. Either way, both are beautiful dogs, even a few of the tweenies!
Ares pedigree is AKC so since he is fairly clearly a JA with good lines, based only on the registries in his lineage, and the fact that his parents are from Poland. But the problem is he is AKC registered and so are his parents, this is a red flag. Since he is AKC it don't tell me if his parents were JA, I can only assume based on the registries in the past generations and the fact that the breed was split. Problem is I will need to go through all his parents and grandparents pedigrees to see if they have any AA in them. I may be able to pay to get further generations from AKC but I am not sure. Just the fact that he has other registries then AKIHO I have been informed that because of the dates that these registries split their breeds I can not be guaranteed that before is it 1992? I don't remember the date. There may be AA since the breed was not split then. I would imagine and I could be wrong but. One would probably have to go back that far at minimum to prove an AKC AA has pure lines w/out JA. (I know it is "ok" for AKC to have mixes. But I would rather have an Akita weather AA or JA that has pure lines as a standard. I repeat I would rather it be a standard that you cant mix. why simple, I have a pretty good JA but because of all this breed split stuff, I now have to investigate to see how pure his line is. and this is precisely why registries were created to keep people from dropping the wrong breed into a pure line. Now I know that there is a chance that Ares is not with out AA in his lines, I can prove that the AA was not in the last three generations. But if he were AKIHO I would not have to do all this. I did know what I was buying and unless my pedigree was faked I got what I paid for, an AKC registered puppy with pretty good lines. I also want everyone to know I have nothing against tweenies. I am just pro-split.
OH MOMMY LOOK IT'S A HUSKY AND IT HAS A BABY!!!!
you are right that if you had to be certain, you would have to find his extended lineage. Some you can trace 10 or more generations back, some I am guessing you wont. I wouldn't know how to help you on that part.
Either way, Ares is an awesome looking dog; i love his face! Especially his squinty eyes.
And most of the AKC (AA) people I've talked to are in fact in favor of the split. They know they are two different breeds now.
Did you mean to say @shibamisteress when you said "They are only "mixed" in the way all American Akitas are, in that the breed has its roots in Japan." That the AA through history ever since it was made has been a mix of the Dewa line and the Congo line. I think you are probably right, that is the way I understood the text, also.
Dewa is JA and Congo is AA is this a true statement? I sometimes don't remember the text as well as I would like. Pictures make threads better:))
We need to look at the AA/JA as dogs who have been shaped by events. Not the evolution of two lines of Akita. This is important because the foundation stock of Akitas in the US do contain both lines. Back then it was common to see Akitas with akiho numbers imported into ACA then eventually AKC.
The closing of the studbook to imports by AKC and the shift by the majority of Akita fanciers(In Japan) towards the modern JA, are the key events here. The American Akita evolved for over twenty years without imports. During this time you begin to see the predecessors of the modern JA starting to win in the Akiho ring.
Shibamistress hit the nail on the head. The current AKC Akita is a reflection of the early restoration period in Japan. All three types of Akita - Fighting, Shepard, and Mountain (I'm going with the simple names here sorry) are allowed to mingle with each other. To me, the classical American Akita is a snapshot of the early post WWII dogs in Japan. Overtime they were improved into what we have today. It is foolish to ignore the historical significance of these dogs.
@T_Dog going back to where you posted your pedigree. Yes there is a chance that you have pre-1992 dogs in your pedigree. It doesn't really matter because the guidelines that FCI setup allowed Ares to be registered as FCI Akita-Inu. The FCI plan worked for Europe. My understanding is that the phenotype judging was a complete cluster. A FCI plan would not work here, simply because the AA and JA have had a chance to develop and additional 14 years since the FCI split.
I believe I'm the one who made that comment on facebook. It was intended to be more of an FYI than anything negative.
Simply put the ACA (Akita Club of America) is the parent club and gardian of the AKC Akita. They are in charge of that breed. As a club they have voted to not got into two breeds. So the question becomes why force them? We shouldn't !! It is their club, this is America and they should be allowed to administer their breed.
There is nothing worse in this country when one group tries to force another group. Instead, I believe in choice, create a second breed in another kennel club, and allow people do choose how they want to go about this. If you don't like the rules of the ACA and AKC Akita head over to UKC and show Japanese Akita. If you don't like Japanese Akita, show AKC. Somebody please tell me why this is bad?
"To remove the many high quality Japanese type Akitas with a large percentage of Japanese lines during a breed split, especially those that are bred up to 3/4, 7/8, 15/16 or more Japanese percentage, seems shortsighted at best. At worst, those who only will consider a 100% Japanese pedigree split appear to be motivated by self interest (ego, power, financial commitment, afraid of the competition, kennel blindness) rather than considering other breeders as a whole or the benefits of genetic diversity and the genetic possibilities for future generations."
In response to the above quote... If the current ACA/AKC Akita isn't working for you may I suggest a third option? How about going into the Continental Kennel Club? http://www.ckcusa.com/registration.aspx . They issue pedigrees with photos and witnesses. You could do all the blends and be free to explore endless genetic combinations. Make a national parent club... The Japanican Akita Club.
Yes, I'm writing the last part in jest but I'm kinda serious too.
It's doing something against the wishes of the country of origin.
For the Shiba x JA, it's premised on data from the 1990's when blood proteins were analyzed, not various portions of the dogs' DNA, especially the immune-related MHC. Newer breed surveys based on modern technology has to be done to evaluate what the statuses of the breeds (AA, JA) are.
Yes, I'm writing the last part in jest but I'm kinda serious too.'
I could be wrong, but my undestanding of the Continental Kennel Club is that it was started by puppy mills as a way to bypass AKC since they were trying to get the mills to clean up their act.
In a way I have always felt that JACA was a club started because they didn't completely agree with AKIHO philosophy or AKC rules. If they agreed with either their would be no need for a new club or registering body.
So I believe your suggestion has its merits since others have successfully made their own club in the past.
Often some money is to be made somewhere by some one who will benefit in some way. Follow the money is always worth considering as a partial reason for a many things.
JMHO
Why would people who own blends and are currently showing AKC want to be moved over into a new Japanese Akita breed? Wouldn't they loose their points and titles?
I agree that JACA doesn't agree with AKC and ACA. I would not define JACA as a registering body. To me Akiho -LA is a branch of the parent club in Japan. So it would be improper for the branch to dictate policy. Plus I like not having to talk "shop" at LA events. JACA, simply gives people who owner Japanese Akitas a breed association to call their own.
The split won't happen unless it is done reasonably. JKC understood that. FCI understood that. The Akita breed was split reasonably in FCI countrys. That is why it was able to be accomplished. In fact, (you may know this) there was even an allowance of 5 additional years for some to make progress in breeding their Akitas toward the more Japanese type after the official FCI Akita breed split. The idea was that no breeding program would be penalized, an ideal the James Crowley of AKC has also agreed with.
Take for example an Akita that is 75% Japanese lines and 25% American lines. Likely this Akita would look more like the Japanese type, and such breeding has even won Best In Show in FCI competition. If you were the owner of a dog of that type, wouldn't you prefer to compete against Akitas that looked similar? Wouldn't you prefer to breed with other dogs of similar type, rather that wash out some of the gains in your breeding program?
100% American line Akitas and blends or tweenies, as people often refer to them, were the back bone of the FCI breed split and have done very well in the Japanese type Akita shows, as have more recent Japanese imports. It all works itself out in the show ring. Quality rises to the top.
This is all just a guess on my part, since you would have to speak with those involved should such a thing ever come to pass. Of course, if the dogs are not AKC registered, the question answers itself.
I now realize my article was a little long and that it was geared toward those who show in AKC. I had hoped it would clear up some of the confusion I have read on this board, but those who come from a different background have not seemed to grasp some of the information and history presented, and that is understandable, especially when it doesn't really affect them anyway.
Now it is to late there are many more high quality JA's out there for Americans to buy.
Why would an American buy an AKC JA? I can tell you cuz I bought one. I bought my JA registered AKC cuz I never planned to breed, so I didn't care about quality. That don't mean I was not aware of AKIHO. But when I bought my puppy there were no AKIHO litters to choose from and I didn't wanna wait.
As the numbers of JA grow in the usa through other kennels(trusted kennels) the need for someone like me to buy from AKC will dwindle to zero. It will soon be widely known that if you want a high quality JA you don't get it from an AKC breeder. This opinion is getting popular and will soon infect the opinions on the AA bred from AKC, IF AKC/ACA cant keep the JA line Clean then they cant keep the AA line clean.
I have posted my papers. Ares is clearly of pretty good stock (not the best stock but pretty good). Yet because he is AKC he gets accused of being a tweenie and this is priceless it is the anti-split supporters who are the ones saying this.
The bad thing is now Ares line is AKC and when the last good kennel drops off the pedigree there will be no proof that his line was imported from a pro-split kennel or country.
The breed has been split all around the world except here and with UKC splitting their Akita, the need for AKC to do it becomes smaller and smaller. Soon all of the USA will have access to hi quality UKC registered JA and AKC breeders will not be able to sell their JA because no one will trust that the line is pure..
This is all IMHO, based on my personal experiences and the books and articles I have read. I tried to word it as to not quote any articles. These are only the thoughts that raised from reading some of the above post that I have put into text. I hope this thread serves to educate people who are considering an Akita puppy and want to know where to buy a high quality Akita. After all it was threads like this that made me aware, and conversations with people who knew about the split that helped me make an inform decision about the purchase of my Akita.
If you want a high quality JA buy it from AKIHO and that is what I knew when I bought AKC. I wanted a dog that looked like Ares and I didn't care that he was AKC, I didn't care that he wasn't the best stock out there. But I knew what I needed to know to make an informed decision. If AKC had done the split when everyone else did this wouldn't be an issue.
In reality, the organization that an Akita is registered with has nothing to do with the quality of the animal. Some Akitas are registered with several registering bodies. It is rather the Akita standard that defines the better dogs while those who have experience and an eye for a dog will be able to discern that. A dogs pedigree is also no proof of quality. If it was, people could just submit the paper trail instead of bring their dog to the show to be judged.
You used your dog as an example. Let me use my dog as another example. Her call name was Japan, and she was imported from Japan. She was registered AKIHO and she won the top award available at the L.A. AKIHO show, a rare occurance. The AKIHO judge was from Japan. She also was the first JACA Best In Show winner under the JKC Honorary Chairman Mr. Kariyabu, who was soley responsible for the Akita breed split in FCI. On top of that, she quickly attained her AKC championship at a time when it took at least 16 bitches to win just a 3 point major, the most difficult requirement ever for Akitas in the USA. She was of course JKC and AKC registered as well as AKIHO registered.
At the present time, there are imports from Japan and other FCI countries, and these have been bred 100% Japanese lines and litters AKC registered. Some of these imports are also triple registered. An AKIHO registered Akita simply needs to first be registered with JKC to obtain an AKC registration. I am in contact with different breeders than you are, which explains our different understanding of the present Akita situation and our different expectations about the future.
BTW, the new breed in FCI is American Akita (formerly Great Japanese Dog). Mr. Kariyabu insisted upon keeping the name Akita for their oriental type.
The UKC isn't forced into a reciprocal agreement with the FCI/JKC and so there won't be the case of an AKC Akita of 75% JA type pedigree going to FCI and then back into UKC as a Japanese Akita.
An owner of an AKIHO dog recently imported from Japan does have the choice to get dual JKC papers and then AKC papers, or they can take the AKIHO papers and get UKC directly. The owner of the dog will have to make a choice in the direction of where he/she wants to go though and stick to it.
They can't straddle both AKC and UKC as breeding a UKC JA to an AKC Akita, even if its to a similar JA type, is breed mixing in the eyes of the UKC. The projeny are not registerable in the UKC.
It is a bit of sementics/politics, but that's the nature of kennel clubs and standardized breeds. I could find an awesome American type Akita in a shelter or on the street and no matter his quality, he could not be a champion. It's nearly the same level of "unfairness" but that's how the rules are played is it not.
Did u register in these different kennels so you could compete in their shows?
Did you need to show your pedigree in order to register? or did a judge just look at your Akita and say its an JA and let you register?(Not trying to be smart)
My biggest question is can I go from AKC to AKIHO, or from AKC to JKC or from AKC to JKC to AKIHO with Ares assuming he was intact?
A few more questions, why were registrations even started?
Did it have to do with keeping blood lines pure?
Do the blood lines being pure suggest good quality?
When a dog is breed for many years to have a certain look, and characteristics, temperament, and drive, what is the best way to ensure it stays that way?
Is dna and blood lines an important piece of quality?
Do you think a tweenie could do what your JA did in the shows?
Can I see your pedigree?
How old is your JA?
How much did you pay for your JA?
How long did you wait for the litter or how long were you on the waiting list?
I just think these are good questions to ask someone who has brought their JA so far. You have listed some pretty great accomplishments. I wish I could afford a Akita with such good history. Can you post some pictures?
1) Both the Sire and the Dam are Akiho registered.
2) The breeder registered the litter.
3) The breeder is a registered kennel with Akiho-Japan.
So when you look at certain AKC pedigree's you'll see that Akiho numbers are listed on that pedigree. JKC will accept an Akiho pedigree. UKC is going to accept an akiho pedigree. Some fo the countries that are FCI are looking at accepting Akiho pedigree. AKC does not -as you already know.
An Akiho registered JA cannot have any breaks in the registration. So lets say the great grandparents are all akiho after that the registration stops. You cannot register the dog akiho because of the break in registration.
I hope that makes sense.