Just because the dog is from "pure bloodlines" does not guarantee the dog will be of "quality" because of genetics, but coming from a good line can greatly raise the odds of having an excellent dog. Simple as that. But yes, DNA and bloodlines are an important part of quality. That is what makes the dog what it looks like, whether the dog is to the standard or not. I can't think of why the genetic makeup of a dog could not be important. But you still have to have the pedigree above all else.
I think that line breeding is the way to go to have better odds of keeping the temperaments and traits of a lineage. However, that can be a controversial subject, I think. So I'll leave it at that.
How much did I pay? Enough. And I waited a year to get Toki
A pedigree is genetic shorthand. We cannot examine and know each and every single gene which comprises a specific breed, and even if we could, it would be a massive amount of data. However, by breeding only to other dogs of the same breed, we create a closed population. The gene pool will contain only the genes that were present at the breed's foundation. A pedigree serves as written record, without need of genetic examination, that a dog's genetic makeup can be traced back to the foundation stock and thus is "pure."
Note that purity does not equate to quality. No dog is perfect, including the foundation of a breed. Very often (as in the case of Akitas) the founding dogs were lacking a great deal. Those flaws and undesirable traits get passed down and recombined in different ways throughout the generations. Each breeder has a different vision and priority for the dogs he breeds. Through rigid selection he may be able to improve upon one trait, but usually at the sacrifice of another.
Completely eradicating an undesirable gene from the pool (and thus, increasing the quality of the entire breed) is difficult without concerted effort from all involved breeders. It only takes a handful of matings and outcrossings to keep a trait in the breed's gene pool indefinitely. With globalization of the dog fancy and spread of backyard breeders over the internet, I dare say it would be impossible to completely remove a gene from any breed these days.
Pedigrees are important, but they only say that a dog has only the genes that his forebears had. He could have all of the worst traits and none of the good ones - and that's why we have conformation shows.
I was looking at some pictures of @loren_egland Akita on his web page, they are nice looking. There are some real nice JA's and I am not sure if I was looking at AA's or if they were AA*JA. Is it uncommon for an AA to have JA ears that tip forward? I saw a black and white Akita with JA ears and the white marking were almost Urijiro. I saw a black mask on a redish Akita with JA ears. I do not know enough to say, but I thought the ears of an AA where supposed to be much different the a JA? I think these are AKC Akita. I can now only assume that Loren is anti-split. Good page though lots of info.
There is a pattern of white called Irish Spotting that all Japanese Akitas carry along with Urajiro. It is usually "masked" by the Urajiro markings in red dogs, but is plainly visible in dogs with sable or brindle coats. This is because true Urajiro does not affect black pigment in the fur. Some people refer to any white on the chest and legs as Urajiro, but more often it is Irish Spotting. Once you have seen the difference however there is no mistaking the two.
Lol that is why I posted my pedigree, so people who don't know what they are looking at like myself and @MapleTwinkie can tell the difference. I did ask though if AA are supposed to have ears that look like JA, and I am pretty sure black is not a color of a JA so hey just asking, why do ppl take offense when asked is someone else's dog is a tweenie? @mapletwinkie what part of ares don't looks JA? Because he fits the description perfectly. No offense was intended, my be all the AA I have seen in the states have bad ears, IDK Thankyou @poeticdragon for answering my question. Thanks for posting a picture you Akita is beautiful!
@poeticdragon what do u make of the black and white akita, and the akita with a mask on Loren's website, those two Akita are confusing me. Is there a chance they are full AA? Or is there a chance they are full JA? I was unable to open the dog show link you posted.
As both Google and Chrome tell me his website can harm my computer, I'm not able to visit it. Besides, its rude to speculate and judge. Loren knows what his dogs are, and that's all that matters.
Im just interjecting to tell Claire that I like her photo and animation of urajiro and Irish spotting, but especially that that is one NICE looking brindle akita! My fave! and obviously I am partial to brindles, and especially reddish brindles vs silver ones. His head shape is also really nice. If I could choose my own akita- Id want him to look just like that! beautiful.
http://www.northlandakitas.com/aboutus.htm Here is a link to the site, those were just pictures in his photo gallery. I guess it could be a puppy, Ares had a slight mask when he was alike a week old. But by 12 or 13 weeks which is the next picture I saw he didn't. Now I am gonna have to find a baby picture.
Red Japanese Akitas are born with black or dark grey faces. The dark area is "soft" around the edges and well fade generally between weeks 5 and 6. This is not the same as a melanistic mask (dominant Em alelle on the E locus), which has a hard edge and is permanent. Melanistic masks are affected by all genes which affect black pigment in the fur, including blue dilution, liver dilution, merle, and greying. They can be "covered up" by white spotting (eg. Irish Spotting, Piebald, Pinto, Blaze, and other similar hard-edged white patterns). They are NOT covered up by Urajiro. The spread of the mask can vary from one dog to another - for some it is the entire face, some it is just the muzzle, some have black widows peaks and beauty marks, others get black ears to match.
‘@Loren_Egland,you started with AKIHO which is like the best place to get a JA. Starting with an AKIHO puppy, I can see how your JAkita did so well.’
AKIHO can be a good source, but in recent years breeders in FCI countries and in AKC have produced some very fine Akitas also.
“Did u register in these different kennels so you could compete in their shows? “
To show and breed, yes.
“Did you need to show your pedigree in order to register? or did a judge just look at your Akita and say its an JA and let you register?(Not trying to be smart) “
There needs to be registration in order to register in another registering body, and a registry includes a pedigree. The only place I know of that you had to show your Akita to a judge to be placed in the Akita breed was in the FCI countries, (of which the JKC is associated) during the initial breed split. I don’t know much about UKC as it is not much of a player, but the owner may be allowed to choose which breed, unless they have since made some changes. I don’t believe that AKC recognizes UKC, but don’t quote me on that.
“My biggest question is can I go from AKC to AKIHO, or from AKC to JKC or from AKC to JKC to AKIHO with Ares assuming he was intact?”
If AKC registered only, then no, you can’t go to AKIHO. You can go from AKC to JKC and you can go from JKC to AKC. You can’t go from JKC to AKIHO, but you can go from AKIHO to JKC. At least that is my understanding.
“A few more questions, why were registrations even started?”
The answer may be different for each registration body. Best to look up their answers.
“Did it have to do with keeping blood lines pure?” “Do the blood lines being pure suggest good quality?”
Not so much. All breeders produce good and poor breed characteristics since there is no perfect dog. You might choose a breeders line if it has the type of qualities you most admire, but if you buy a puppy it may or may not turn out well. Best to buy adult if you want to be sure what you are getting, though that is not always feasible.
“When a dog is breed for many years to have a certain look, and characteristics, temperament, and drive, what is the best way to ensure it stays that way?”
A dog’s appearance and qualities are a result of the genotype. A breeder would normally choose dogs whose phenotype possesses the qualities they are trying to produce or maintain, and balance that with trying to obtain better characteristics to offset the areas their own stock is weak in.
“Is dna and blood lines an important piece of quality?”
One tries to guess the best genetic make up and what breeders’ lines it comes from, but there are no guarantees of quality.
“Do you think a tweenie could do what your JA did in the shows?”
Yes, since it has already been done several times. Of course I am talking about shows in AKC or FCI countries since AKIHO only will allow AKIHO heritage, unlike the rest of the world where the breed has been split. AKIHO cares about nothing but AKIHO, and AKIHO purest sometimes won’t even show at JKC shows, let alone and FCI or AKC show. When our Akita, Japan, won BIS at the first JACA show, no AKIHO members showed their dogs to the JKC Chariman who was judging, even though it was held in the Los Angeles area near the AKIHO branch. The exception were those of us who came from AKC and were showing at the Akita national.
She was imported as a puppy in 1992, so is not longer with us.
“How much did you pay for your JA?”
I only paid $1000 for her on a co-ownership with some puppies back if I remember correctly. “How long did you wait for the litter or how long were you on the waiting list?”
I asked a Japanese man who was also an Akita breeder to locate something for us in Japan. He knows his stuff and speaks the language, and he was responsible for bringing over to America some of the finest Akitas.
“I just think these are good questions to ask someone who has brought their JA so far. You have listed some pretty great accomplishments. I wish I could afford a Akita with such good history. Can you post some pictures?”
I don’t know how to post pictures, but our Akita Learning Center website has over 1300 pictures. The person who built our site is trying to find time to fix the infected files. I don’t know how to work on the website at all. You might enjoy the 10 pages under the’ Reference Collection’ though.
@ loren_egland Thank You, for taking the time to answer my questions, I really do like to hear the opinions and knowledge of the experienced. What you wrote was very insightful, I was able to surf your sight on my phone with out issues, so far anyways. If you get time could you tell us about the pictures I added to this thread from your sight, everyone was afraid to enter your page so I put them up here.
"If AKC registered only, then no, you can’t go to AKIHO. You can go from AKC to JKC and you can go from JKC to AKC. You can’t go from JKC to AKIHO, but you can go from AKIHO to JKC."
Do you mean AKC Akita to JKC American Akita?
Then JKC American Akita or JKC Akita (Japanese) to AKC Akita?
An AKC Akita can be registered in an FCI country as either and American Akita or and Akita (Japanese Type), and vice versa. Both the FCI American Akita and the FCI Akita can be registered with AKC as an Akita.
The AKC does not have a breed called the American Akita, as that is an invention of the FCI countries via JKC.
Remember that in England they changed their long time name of Japanese Akita to just Akita so that they could now call the new breed (Japanese Type) Japanese Akita.
Gets confusing, I know.
A question was asked about ears. The forward tilt is a requirement in all Akita standards. However, erect ears still show up in both general types.
Color was mentioned. The first standard to limit the colors and the black mask of the Akita was the all breed registering body JKC standard in the early 1990's. Akiho, Akikyo, Nippo have always allowed the black mask. Toward the end of 2005, AKIHO was talking about and may have changed their 1955 standard from 6 colors that included black and pinto to 4 colors that included goma. I have not seen any info about the black mask. One reason for the change is that the show ring and the registrations no longer included Akitas with those colors anyway. There is an article about this on our website http://www.northlandakitas.com/update/revision.htm
There is a lot in common in the various standards. I believe that the closer any Akita comes to matching the standard, the more they look alike. Most people see the extreme examples in type and assume it is the result of the standards being different, when in actuality, there are only minor differences in terminology. To me, a purist would look to the standard first and breed toward it, rather than change the standard to fit the dogs being bred.
The AKC Akita has always included both general types and pedigrees. In fact, if memory serves me, I traced my first Akita (obtained in the 1970's) back to Goromaru 22 times. Goromaru was a red pinto but was of the Ichinoseki line and is often credited with the more oriental type while Kongo of the Dewa line was followed by the Akita Tani line in the early days before AKC recognition. But by 1974 when registrations were stopped from Japan, many recent imports before that time were Japanese type and many wanted to split the breed then, as I guess I already stated in the above article.
 Quote from linked article, "We also carefully discussed the goma coat. A few dogs with the goma coat are occasionally registered from a litter. The goma coat is seen in the medium Japanese dogs. For various other reasons, we decided that removal of the goma coat at this time was premature."
"We decided to limit coat colors to white, red, goma and brindle in the Akita dog standard. We are expecting some mixed responses to this decision. "
Does anyone have a picture of a goma colored Akita? I would like to know what that looks like.
@T-Dog , no offense taken, and you should know I'm a dog newbie but I do spend hours and hours looking at JA's on the internet lol. Ares is beautiful, but his ears are higher up and face forward more than JA's whose ears are more farther apart and face down. Ares' muzzle is also wider and longer in proportion to his eyes, I think on a JA it's closer and the muzzle is more of a pointed look. Sorry I don't have all the right terminology. Ares looks like he's part GSD? Not sure if anyone else here agrees? Anyway, Ares is gorgeous, just looks like maybe he's got something else in him. Or maybe i'm used to looking at a specific type of JA "look" in Japan.
Comments
I think that line breeding is the way to go to have better odds of keeping the temperaments and traits of a lineage. However, that can be a controversial subject, I think. So I'll leave it at that.
How much did I pay? Enough.
And I waited a year to get Toki
Note that purity does not equate to quality. No dog is perfect, including the foundation of a breed. Very often (as in the case of Akitas) the founding dogs were lacking a great deal. Those flaws and undesirable traits get passed down and recombined in different ways throughout the generations. Each breeder has a different vision and priority for the dogs he breeds. Through rigid selection he may be able to improve upon one trait, but usually at the sacrifice of another.
Completely eradicating an undesirable gene from the pool (and thus, increasing the quality of the entire breed) is difficult without concerted effort from all involved breeders. It only takes a handful of matings and outcrossings to keep a trait in the breed's gene pool indefinitely. With globalization of the dog fancy and spread of backyard breeders over the internet, I dare say it would be impossible to completely remove a gene from any breed these days.
Pedigrees are important, but they only say that a dog has only the genes that his forebears had. He could have all of the worst traits and none of the good ones - and that's why we have conformation shows.
There is a pattern of white called Irish Spotting that all Japanese Akitas carry along with Urajiro. It is usually "masked" by the Urajiro markings in red dogs, but is plainly visible in dogs with sable or brindle coats. This is because true Urajiro does not affect black pigment in the fur. Some people refer to any white on the chest and legs as Urajiro, but more often it is Irish Spotting. Once you have seen the difference however there is no mistaking the two.
Here's an example using my boy who has both:
I was unable to open the dog show link you posted.
This one I don't think my phone is displaying well enough, I think maybe it is brindle and it is just showing up black and white on my phone.
My current screen is too dark to see very well, but I think the second linked photo is a brindle based on the inside of the back right leg.
Yes you can have small ears with an AA
Kokoa Go had a mask as a puppy but it faded with maturity.
Here is a link to the site, those were just pictures in his photo gallery. I guess it could be a puppy, Ares had a slight mask when he was alike a week old. But by 12 or 13 weeks which is the next picture I saw he didn't. Now I am gonna have to find a baby picture.
This is a picture of Tachi my Shiba when he was 7 weeks old.
Ares at 16 days old.
There it is @*JackBurton*
AKIHO can be a good source, but in recent years breeders in FCI countries and in AKC have produced some very fine Akitas also.
“Did u register in these different kennels so you could compete in their shows? “
To show and breed, yes.
“Did you need to show your pedigree in order to register? or did a judge just look at your Akita and say its an JA and let you register?(Not trying to be smart) “
There needs to be registration in order to register in another registering body, and a registry includes a pedigree. The only place I know of that you had to show your Akita to a judge to be placed in the Akita breed was in the FCI countries, (of which the JKC is associated) during the initial breed split. I don’t know much about UKC as it is not much of a player, but the owner may be allowed to choose which breed, unless they have since made some changes. I don’t believe that AKC recognizes UKC, but don’t quote me on that.
“My biggest question is can I go from AKC to AKIHO, or from AKC to JKC or from AKC to JKC to AKIHO with Ares assuming he was intact?”
If AKC registered only, then no, you can’t go to AKIHO. You can go from AKC to JKC and you can go from JKC to AKC. You can’t go from JKC to AKIHO, but you can go from AKIHO to JKC. At least that is my understanding.
“A few more questions, why were registrations even started?”
The answer may be different for each registration body. Best to look up their answers.
“Did it have to do with keeping blood lines pure?”
“Do the blood lines being pure suggest good quality?”
Not so much. All breeders produce good and poor breed characteristics since there is no perfect dog. You might choose a breeders line if it has the type of qualities you most admire, but if you buy a puppy it may or may not turn out well. Best to buy adult if you want to be sure what you are getting, though that is not always feasible.
“When a dog is breed for many years to have a certain look, and characteristics, temperament, and drive, what is the best way to ensure it stays that way?”
A dog’s appearance and qualities are a result of the genotype. A breeder would normally choose dogs whose phenotype possesses the qualities they are trying to produce or maintain, and balance that with trying to obtain better characteristics to offset the areas their own stock is weak in.
“Is dna and blood lines an important piece of quality?”
One tries to guess the best genetic make up and what breeders’ lines it comes from, but there are no guarantees of quality.
“Do you think a tweenie could do what your JA did in the shows?”
Yes, since it has already been done several times. Of course I am talking about shows in AKC or FCI countries since AKIHO only will allow AKIHO heritage, unlike the rest of the world where the breed has been split. AKIHO cares about nothing but AKIHO, and AKIHO purest sometimes won’t even show at JKC shows, let alone and FCI or AKC show. When our Akita, Japan, won BIS at the first JACA show, no AKIHO members showed their dogs to the JKC Chariman who was judging, even though it was held in the Los Angeles area near the AKIHO branch. The exception were those of us who came from AKC and were showing at the Akita national.
“Can I see your pedigree?”
http://www.northlandakitas.com/dogs_japan.htm
“How old is your JA?”
She was imported as a puppy in 1992, so is not longer with us.
“How much did you pay for your JA?”
I only paid $1000 for her on a co-ownership with some puppies back if I remember correctly.
“How long did you wait for the litter or how long were you on the waiting list?”
I asked a Japanese man who was also an Akita breeder to locate something for us in Japan. He knows his stuff and speaks the language, and he was responsible for bringing over to America some of the finest Akitas.
“I just think these are good questions to ask someone who has brought their JA so far. You have listed some pretty great accomplishments. I wish I could afford a Akita with such good history. Can you post some pictures?”
I don’t know how to post pictures, but our Akita Learning Center website has over 1300 pictures. The person who built our site is trying to find time to fix the infected files. I don’t know how to work on the website at all. You might enjoy the 10 pages under the’ Reference Collection’ though.
"If AKC registered only, then no, you can’t go to AKIHO. You can go from AKC to JKC and you can go from JKC to AKC. You can’t go from JKC to AKIHO, but you can go from AKIHO to JKC."
Do you mean AKC Akita to JKC American Akita?
Then JKC American Akita or JKC Akita (Japanese) to AKC Akita?
The AKC does not have a breed called the American Akita, as that is an invention of the FCI countries via JKC.
Remember that in England they changed their long time name of Japanese Akita to just Akita so that they could now call the new breed (Japanese Type) Japanese Akita.
Gets confusing, I know.
A question was asked about ears. The forward tilt is a requirement in all Akita standards. However, erect ears still show up in both general types.
Color was mentioned. The first standard to limit the colors and the black mask of the Akita was the all breed registering body JKC standard in the early 1990's. Akiho, Akikyo, Nippo have always allowed the black mask. Toward the end of 2005, AKIHO was talking about and may have changed their 1955 standard from 6 colors that included black and pinto to 4 colors that included goma. I have not seen any info about the black mask. One reason for the change is that the show ring and the registrations no longer included Akitas with those colors anyway. There is an article about this on our website http://www.northlandakitas.com/update/revision.htm
There is a lot in common in the various standards. I believe that the closer any Akita comes to matching the standard, the more they look alike. Most people see the extreme examples in type and assume it is the result of the standards being different, when in actuality, there are only minor differences in terminology. To me, a purist would look to the standard first and breed toward it, rather than change the standard to fit the dogs being bred.
The AKC Akita has always included both general types and pedigrees. In fact, if memory serves me, I traced my first Akita (obtained in the 1970's) back to Goromaru 22 times. Goromaru was a red pinto but was of the Ichinoseki line and is often credited with the more oriental type while Kongo of the Dewa line was followed by the Akita Tani line in the early days before AKC recognition. But by 1974 when registrations were stopped from Japan, many recent imports before that time were Japanese type and many wanted to split the breed then, as I guess I already stated in the above article.
"We also carefully discussed the goma coat. A few dogs with the goma coat are occasionally registered from a litter. The goma coat is seen in the medium Japanese dogs. For various other reasons, we decided that removal of the goma coat at this time was premature."
"We decided to limit coat colors to white, red, goma and brindle in the Akita dog standard. We are expecting some mixed responses to this decision. "
Does anyone have a picture of a goma colored Akita? I would like to know what that looks like.
There are a few pictures in the following thread of what looks like sesame Akita.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/4826/how-many-black-tipped-hairs-make-a-sesame/p1