My J-Akita's aggression, any advise.
This is a problem I need to address. This is the most aggressive he has ever been at the park. I have stopped going to the park, he was 11 months old here. he was born 6/29/11 so he is 13 months old now. he wore the muzzle for three visits in total, but not on this visit. he had been going to this park daily from 13 weeks old, he was not good with other dogs at 13 weeks but at 16 weeks he had become much better then by 20 weeks or 5 months he had no issues, then at 9 months he started a slow progression of not allowing other dogs to dominate him, by 10 months he was giving long warnings before he would correct or actually do something about things like getting humped. by eleven months he had decided not to warn anymore. probably because of me making the possible mistake of correcting him for showing that type of aggression. He has not been to the park for at least two months now, except one time when I went with my brother and I kept Ares on leash the whole time and was actually uncomfortable with the whole thing and winded up leaving. He is not like this with my brothers doberman 9 months old or his yellow lab 2yrs old or his GSD 12 yrs old or My Shiba 1.9 years old. Ares picks and chooses who he will like and not like at the park.
When I say Ares with a light correction in my voice it was because is lip just barely raised, I knew he was gonna windup doing something and most the time he will walk away is I say that. He has never shaken a dog like that before or after this encounter. But He didnt have the muzzle on cuz I figured the muzzle was doing no good. I thought I may have made things worse if i kept using it. You will see the muzzle in the next video. Any advise is welcome. Thanks.
This is the same problem, he has played with the boxer several times with out the muzzle, the boxer always goes strait to it back. you see I can pull him out of trouble by saying his name and also that his recall is not so good at times.
This i just want you to see.
Here is my young Tachi doing his tricks.
Comments
http://stubbydog.org/2011/06/to-park-or-not-to-park/
http://leerburg.com/dogparks.htm
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/park/docs/DogParks_King.pdf
http://akitarescue.rescuegroups.org/info/display?PageID=3187
A dog park is not "socialization." Its an extremely stressful, uncontrolled environment where the dog is forced to meet and interact with many other strange dogs (some of which are quite "rude"). It HINDERS proper socialization, rather than helps. Stay away! Socialize in a controlled environment with other trustworthy dogs and owners.
Additionally, your dog is under 3 years old. Puppies love everyone, but that changes as they mature. Don't expect him to act the same way as he did when he was younger, and do expect for this "issue" to get worse as he comes into adulthood.
("Issue" is in quotes because its not a problem IMO. There is no good reason, only selfish ones, to go to a dog park. Dog parks are for the enjoyment of people, not the enjoyment and mental or physical health of the dogs.)
I used to go to dog parks with Toki (my japanese akita puppy), but i have stopped for basically all the reasons poeticdragon has already posted. Not to mention Toki was attacked at a dog park when he was 4-5 months old. (don't worry, he came out fine, and we didn't go anymore after that. I also learn the hard way!). At these dog parks, I had a few people who had american akitas say how their pup was excellent with other dogs until about a year, give or take 3ish months. It happens. Its just something that comes with the territory of owning an Akita, american or japanese. The simple solution is simply to not go to dog parks. We both have akitas, not goldendoodles.
I'm super glad you brought this up. I'm always happy to see others do their research and learn!
And I'll likely be following this thread too, since Toki 9.5 months old...about that age.
Anywho, I agree, stop going to dog parks. And don't "correct" for giving a warning like showing teeth. Thank then remove the dog from the stimulus.
Scroll to Dangerous Dog Laws, that was a good read, this is seeming to be a popular opinion, with how to handle an Akita. Thanks for the link poeticdragon. This really is starting to set in, I was so determined to socialize, the crap out of my dog, that I looked past all the negatives of the dog park. I agree with the whole pitbull mentality thing that was in one of those articles, the Akita will get the blame, the winner is usually the one at fault, and I know from experience now that my dog will likely be the winner in his disputes.
It might be useful for you to check out some of the books on positive reinforcement training in the books thread? It's here: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/3851/more-books-on-behavior-training-and-care/#Item_24
There are some good books on handling reactive dogs. Most NKs have some level of reactivity and don't do well at dog parks. They may continue to be good with dogs in their pack (or there may be adjustment periods like we're going through with our AA who is both good with our dogs, and also starting to resource guard more which causes more squabbles) but often get less tolerant of strange dogs or dogs they don't see very often.
@shibamistress I am starting to see the good in all positive as I read in another thread, it is idiot proof and I am an idiot. Lol I am thinking what if I do it wrong. Then all I have done is made my dog fat with treats. I think I should do the kind of negative reinforcement that is not so harsh, the ehh ehh, or No. I still feel the need to disagree with him on some stuff.
One thing is for sure, the dog park is the worst possible place you can choose to try and work with a dog on any type of behavioral issue.
Also, in the first video, Aries seemed ok until you said his name. After you said his name, then he reacted. Do you discipline him after he has encounters like this? If you do, do you call him to you and then discipline him?
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This one is a little embarrassing cuz he ignores me for a minute.
I do remember one lady of a husky saying how nice Saya was and how a different B&T shiba used to bite her husky's tail so maybe this lady is same one who has been rude to me on the FB page.. I reported her and if she sends me another message I'll do it again..
I stop going all together, but stick on the FB dp page..
Saya can be snarky with strange dogs especially rude ones.
She does have three dog friends in the neighborhood.. Two boxers and a lab/mastiff mix plus cousin's pug she likes.
Plus she has Bella.
I don't mind it if she has tight nit group of friends fine by me. She does well around other dogs on walks she doesn't lung or bark.
She has met some shiba inu some she got snarky with some she was like omg play play!
I can't offer much advice sorry.
Our last male dog used to resource guarded treats and certain space area we managed him by keeping him away from the space and dogs got treats in separate room.
We've had some slip ups where he went for one of our female dogs, but luckily we managed to stop them and put him in a room to cool off.
So glad Bella and Saya do so well..
Basically, what I am saying is, if you go searching for a problem to fix, you'll find it. Some dogs are just not the social butterflies we want them to be. Maybe Aries is not a "people person". ;o)
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The bettendorf park has literally hundreds of dogs that come to the park and most have no training. Lots of the ppl that go there think the dogs should figure it out and it becomes survival of the fittest, my dog was one of the fittest and that is why I quit going cuz I don't need the hassle, when it was just my 20lb shiba it was easy cuz the winner gets the blame, and big dogs are perceived as the threat and the problem first. Points to the dog that wins is the dog at fault. This is why I stopped bringing my Akita most people don't know when their dog is dominating another dog or they don't care, it is just play they will say as their do show to much aggression. BUT when my dog stops said aggression by being more aggressive, or more dominant, then my dog is the bad dog. Why because while their dog was pushing the limit of acceptable behavior, mine went past what is except able, why because he did what he had to do to stop a dog from dominating him. Right this is the problem, we are leaving the dogs to take care of it them selves, why so we don't hafta fight with their owner to control their dogs. My akita has no issue with correcting another dog. And I was unable to stop him from doing so. This is why ppl have not see me there. And some may say good. I say most the time not all the time in the end but most the time the dog had it coming. And lauren I have always enjoy your dog and you being at the park, but at some point you dog will wind up with a fear issue or an aggression issue if you go to often as I did.
Going to the park can get to be a routine that people don't wanna break.
Lauren still didn't wanna quit going.
I didn't wanna quit either, but then I talked it over with Akita owners on here, and after reading some of the posted articles, I am now convinced that it is the dog park that is the problem. I believe I will just socialize him with family owned dogs from here on out. Thanks to all who have posted here to help me figure this out.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/112682/
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/107704/#Comment_107704
On the Shiba side: http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/6867/x
My oldest dog was very good at the off leash Field with all comers, and she has met- I am sure -one thousand different dogs in her life. We went there for years.
Dog 2 was anxious and became the focus of unwanted attention by other dogs- he was pinned by a boxer, and bit on the throat for a wound by a springer spaniel, he accidentally slipped his kneecap running with two friendly dogs but it all added up to something that no dog is going to figure out on their own. He felt crowded and when dogs began to press him, he'd make faces and growl, upsetting all the people. There was a pair of miniature schnauzers that used to jump all over him, and he;d roll over and let them but his look was of great stress. It IS hard to quit the dog park- no question- it is fun to be with the dogs, you have friends there. At the time I worked form home and it was one of very few social outlets for me. But for my dog, I had to do it. We quit The Field and began a long and ongoing road of work together on, really, BOTH of our behavior.
Dog 3 has never and will NEVER go to a dog park. She is fulfilled in our family and pack and can work around strange dogs, she knows everything is under control and she isnt afraid. She does go to community dog events and places where everyone is on leash and she is comfortable together with me. I dont feel any need, guilt or anything that she is missing out on anything she would enjoy. and contrary to how I once felt about free-range dog parks, I think I do her the best service by NOT taking her to any.
Good for you, TDog, to quit the park!!!
I should explain the context I was using the words dominate and submit.
By dominate I was meaning to over power physically, or mentally like staring in the eyes, or humping, or climbing on top of, or holding down. I may have used the wrong word to describe these actions.
By submit I was meaning to lower the head below the other dogs head, or to roll and give the tummy to, or to crouch down, and beg for forgiveness, or to yelp at a act of offensive action. I may have used the wrong word to describe these things.
I actually don't know what word to use now.
To describe how another dog clearly is more powerful and takes what he wants while the other one gives in. What is that called? I am not being sarcastic, I really would like to learn this. Maybe I missed something in the articles that described this. I did pick up the parenting concept and that makes a lot of good since.
So in cases like this, describing the dog as "dominant" doesn't make sense at all.
But your question is what words do we use to describe the action, and I think that is a good question, and perhaps it is just a matter of how we use it? Like the behavior is "submissive" (rather than the dog is submissive), when the dog is rolling over not in play. (If the dog was rolling over in play to another dog, we often call it handicapping, and big dogs often do it for littler dogs--my Akita does it for my Kai Ken puppy).
And how do we describe the behavior of pinning another dog? Or trying to intimidate through a hard stare? Maybe just being that specific to describe the action?
I'm not sure, in other words. What I was pointing out in your earlier post was that the idea of a dog being "dominant" is not that useful, but that's different than describing the behavior.
Perhaps someone else will have opinions on this?
Other people have brought up the fear train of thought. I think when Ares is unsure of himself his tail goes down. I do not see in his body language any fear of dogs. He does show fear or uncertainties when faced with other things like walking on a boat dock for the first time. Or swimming in the river for the first time.
But in the video he doesn't carry himself with fear. I have noticed that the other dog shows fear, and I have thought that maybe Ares was "attacking fear". Notice the dog lowers his head and hunches a bit and his tail is down, saying please don't hurt me, then Ares launched. Maybe I am way off?
It's kind of like if a person were to be in a confrontation with a group of strangers, that person is going to be scared but not everyone expresses that fear the same way. Some people will run, others will freeze up, some will cry, while others will beg for their life. Then you see some that will try to take a more offensive approach, they will get aggressive and find a way to fight/scare these people off. Taking the offensive doesn't eliminate the fact that the person is scared, it just proves the fact that the person has found this tactic to be the most successful at getting out of the confrontation with minimal damage.
"Akitas can be so aggressive with other dogs of the same sex that two males or two females should never be left alone together. The problem is that this breed can be difficult to "read" -- often he does not "posture" (display obvious signs of aggression) -- instead, an Akita Inu may co-exist peacefully with another dog until suddenly, apparently out of the blue, a minor disagreement occurs, or perhaps the other dog pushes the Akita too far or approaches the Akita's food bowl or favorite toy, and then the Akita may attack with unsuspected ferocity. Akitas can be very possessive of their food -- keep children away from them during mealtime."
This is a popular opinion among authors. It is also apparent in this video that there are not many signs, before Ares launches. The one that are there are subtle.
Here is another quote from the same link.
"As you might guess, cats and other small animals are also at risk around an Akita. In general, it is simply safest to keep this breed as an only pet."
I have not follow this advise Ares lives with a taby cat and an Shiba who is the one that actually picks on the cat. Tachi! No kitty!!!
Another quote from above link.
"Training can be a challenge, for the Akita Inu is assertive, strong-willed, and bores easily, and he may use his intelligence in ways that suit his own purposes."
Quote from above link.
"Akitas are inherently aggressive towards other animals and for this reason, they should not be allowed to run free or roam at will. You can exercise your Akita off leash when you are in an area where it's unlikely there will be much contact with other animals and people."
These statements are all saying Akita are aggressive and dangerous to other animals. I am not inclined to believe that all Akita's have fear of a fight. These statement are saying most all Akita are like this.
This is a popular link.
http://www.akitarescue.com/Facts about Akitas.htm
"Male Akitas show aggression toward other male dogs, and female Akitas usually will not tolerate another female. Akitas can live peacefully with a dog of the opposite sex, though some Akitas prefer being an only dog!"
"Undoubtedly, Japanese breeders selected for the more aggressive dogs
throughout the years the breed was used for fighting, but I'm sure their
choice to use the Akita in the first place had much to do with their innate
desire to scrap with other dogs. This tendency made them a good choice
for the sport of dog- fighting."
This all points to the thought that Akita's will fight and for little reason, I do not tend to believe it is out of fear for getting hurt that they do this. They also naturally resource guard. To think that an Akita is a fear bitter or a fear fighter is a very rare case. I apologize for my next comment cuz I could not find the source to quote from. But I also read, a while back that if in meeting a new dog this dog does not hold up to the high standards the Akita holds for him, an Akita will attack or correct. Meaning, and keep in mind this is in my own words, an Akita will nip the tummy of a dog that goes belly up to soon. An Akita will snap at a fear full dog, as if to say don't be fear full, I will tuffen you up. Don't submit to soon, and they will also teach respect, don't put your paw on my back, don't hump me. I will kill you. This is the temperament of an Akita, it is what they were breed to be like. "Pit dogs" and many japanese breeders still like the aggressive nature of the Akita. Not to say we have not been trying to breed aggression down, but like the video of the foxes that get breed to be tame, the color changed.
"So to only select for non aggressive akita will change other things."
I believe this is in one of the articles I have posted. My point is I don't think that the school of thought saying that an Akita may be fear fighting is logical. I do believe there is a real good point made about the Arena of the dog park. I am inclined to believe that Ares is a typical Akita, based on these articles. I hope that I presented this in the proper adequate for this forum, I did take note when reading other threads:))
First, though, it's useful to remember that while Akitas certainly were used in dog fighting on occasion, they were bred to be hunting dogs, not fighting dogs per se, so I also think that the "fighting" quality has been overplayed to excuse behavioral problems. Also, in my experience in the AA (not JA), they HAVE been bred to have a much better temperament in the past 20 years or so. Another oft repeated thing about Akitas is one I find more true: they won't start a fight but they may finish it. I don't find them particularly more or less aggressive than other breeds, and certainly Akitas are easier to deal with than, say, Shibas.
I do not believe for a moment that they are not fearful. I've seen too many fearful AAs (and plenty of fearful Shibas) to believe that. ANY dog can be fearful. And as Calia pointed out above, you may not see it show up in the way you expect: not all fearful dogs look fearful! This is certainly the case with my male Shiba, who, to inexperienced eyes, might look "aggressive or dominant" as he snarls and lunges at other dogs. But he is not. He's a resource guarder too (which is also fear based--fear of losing a valued resource) and he is attacking other dogs before they can get near enough to get to him. It's a warning and a way to keep other dogs away, and it is hard to train out of dogs, sometimes, because it is self-rewarding behavior--they growl and the other dog goes away.
Also, even if a dog has a tendency to be reactive, it should not be tolerated. I don't believe an Akita is judging a dog up to it's standards--that's really anthromorphizing the breed. A dog may have many reasons for reacting to another dog, some of which may be based in fear or in resource guarding (in fact mostly that's what it is about) but certainly, if it does that with another dog, that is not just "the breed" but it is a sign that the owner of the dog really needs to work with the dog to stop that behavior and it certainly means the person should not take that dog out with strange dogs until the behavior is under control, because it is unacceptable behavior, and dogs can get hurt if it is left to go unchecked. (Believe me, Ive had to live with this: I used to think that my Shibas behavior was "natural" and what the breed was like so I didn't intervene in the bullying and bad behavior that went on, until my female Shiba nearly killed the male one. After weeks at the vet and thousands of dollars and nearly losing the dog, I realized I needed to figure out a new way of dealing with dog reactivity and that's when I learened a ton more about dog behavior!)
anyway, I'm not speaking of your dog in particular, but just the breeds in general. And btw, your presentation of everything was just fine! I don't agree with your premises, but the presentation is fine!
Inter-Dog Fear Aggression
By: Dr. Nicholas Dodman and Dr. Alice Moon-Fanelli
Some dogs are aggressive toward other dogs through fear or anxiety. For these dogs, a good offense is the best defense. In the wild, this behavior is adaptive and protects the dog from harm; however, fear can also be maladaptive when the response is out of proportion to any real threat. Fears can reach such proportions that they impair a dog's ability to function acceptably in society.
Typically, dogs that are fear-aggressive toward other dogs have been improperly socialized as pups. Fear aggressive dogs may be genetically predisposed to respond in this manner, but nurture seems to be intimately involved in the creation of such individuals. The majority of fear aggressive dogs have a checkered history of insufficient or inappropriate early socialization experiences.
Dogs that are fearful but not aggressive are the shrinking violets of the canine world and will either hide, squat and urinate, rollover or attempt to appease the infiltrator. In order for fear to be manifested as aggression, a component of dominance is necessary. Dogs with a low level of dominance and a high level of fear are the classical fear-biters.
Dogs with a high level of dominance and a high level of fear are some of the most dangerous dogs around. They attack first and ask questions later. Fear aggression expressed toward other dogs is usually directed towards certain types of dog (e.g. large dogs, same sex dogs, or overly energetic dogs) or it may be to all other dogs.
Read more: http://www.petplace.com/dogs/inter-dog-fear-aggression/page1.aspx
I hate that the term "dominance" is in there, but that is a good article written by valuable members of the behavioral community. Also, it should be noted that the use of "dominance" in that last passage is being used as it applies to ethology NOT a pecking-order: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_(ethology)
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Another good read: http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/FightingWithDogs_1.pdf
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Regarding your quotes on Akita, I don't buy any of that shit. It's become my realization that anything printed about a dog breed's behavior in an "absolute" fact/statement (like "Male Akitas show aggression toward other male dogs") is wrong.
I owned 4 Akita Inu at one point, they all got along fine...
when Akita attack from Brad Anderson on Vimeo.
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