Question re: white collar fault- If the purpose of showing dogs is to compare and evaluate breeding stock, then (theoretically) only faults that could be passed down in breeding would be considered 'faults'- so if this puppy with the half collar marking has otherwise stunning reproduceable features, is she being faulted (theoretically) because of her own appearance alone? Or do neck collars persistently beget more neck collars? If a dog doesnt show well due to a feature like that, is she likely to be spayed and pet'homed, or are JA in a place where keeping her in the breeding pool because she is otherwise excellent (theoretically) likely? I think the darkness & density of her blacks is superb and if her red doesnt get washy, well, the collar is minor detail since she can be bred to collarless dogs, right?....how persistent is collaring in subsequent generations? I guess is the root question...
and we all know per the BBC documentary that health and internal conditions are not whats being evaluated at dog shows, so maybe I am not quite perfectly correct that dog shows' purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. Im not a breeder or a show-er, and Ive never even met a JA, so what do I know? I AM curious though, so educate away!
"Question re: white collar fault- If the purpose of showing dogs is to compare and evaluate breeding stock, then (theoretically) only faults that could be passed down in breeding would be considered 'faults'"
First all dogs have faults. There are various levels of a fault. A tail that doesn't curl enough or curls too much would be a fault. Some faults are elimination faults - prevents you from placing but you can still breed. To disqualification faults - faults that would prevent you from placing and you should not be breeding.
So to clarify this would be a minor fault just a simple point deduction. So in the case of a collar it would not be a DQ fault. Butterfly nose, sickle tail, splayed feet etc would be ones. Significant over or under bite.
Other traits of the dog could overcome that deduction in the ring. I tend to be overly critical of my dogs to begin with. To but it bluntly, I consider myself a shitty salesman.
"..how persistent is collaring in subsequent generations? I guess is the root question..."
Well it seems to be more in this litter than in the last. But as a rule of thumb the less both parents have the less there seems to be. There are plenty of JA's that didn't do that red hot in the ring yet produced fantastic puppies. There is no reason why this pup wouldn't do the same. She may bring qualities to the table that compliment or correct issues in a given stud. The big thing is being up front and point them out during the puppy buying process.
"and we all know per the BBC documentary that health and internal conditions are not whats being evaluated at dog shows, so maybe I am not quite perfectly correct that dog shows' purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. Im not a breeder or a show-er, and Ive never even met a JA, so what do I know? "
Correct a show does not evaluate the health and internal conditions of a dog to a certain extent. For example some standards have a clause that says that poorly conditioned dogs yadda yadda. At the Akiho show the judge checks to make sure the dog has its teeth and proper bite and in the case of the males, the judge makes sure that both boys are in the ring as well.
I have noticed that western shows seem to be more about the dog/handler than it is just the dog.
I do have major reservations of that BBC documentary. It did uncover a lot of issues that typify what is wrong with the show dog world. My big issue was the BBC throwing in a photo of the Japanese Akita and not discussing it. I ended up figuring out what study they used to base the documentary and I bummed because the JA data they had showed the JA in a good light. Somewhere on here, I posted the link.
A dog show is supposed to work like this. Breeder takes dog to the show. Dog is shown and gets noticed by other breeders. Breeder A approaches breeder B to talk about mating. That conversation is where the talk about health of the animal comes in. in a perfect world...the end result is an breeding that should compliment the standard and result in healthy puppies. In the end that doesn't really happen.
Now let me put my JACA hat on and brag for a little bit CERF and OFA was a common topic during the JACA and Akiho shows. I even looked at a set of xrays while I was there. Another member brought up their OFA documents. The best part of that, was the number of newer members who were talking about this. I am very pleased
Right the judge in theory will judge according to the standard.
People like a certain dog and then they choose to breed to it. There is money to be made with high-end championship dogs. So I've been told, I don't think any of us in JACA will ever be in that postion. I'm sure the list goes on.
Honestly, when it comes to shows, I'm a big outsider. I've never been in a major show to begin with.
I think it's partially because puppy buyers or newbies don't always know how to decipher/evaluate the dog in front of them and put more weight on points and titles.
White (irish spotting) begets more white. There is some variation of course. My puppy has less irish spotting than either of her parents, while the male in the litter had more. But if you took two dogs with white collars and bred them together, you're going to get many more white collars, blazes, even eventually white hoods! Also, it is not limited to just one area of the body. A dog with a white collar is likely also to have larger areas of white on the face, chest, tail tip, etc and longer white socks. Eventually irish spotting turns into pinto.
Ideally a red dog would have absolutely no irish spotting at all. The white markings on a red dog called urajiro are caused by a different gene and irish spotting is completely unnecessary to get a correctly marked dog. However, the irish spotting is necessary to correctly mark a brindle dog and that is why it remains in the gene pool.
as long as that white part is not all around the neck, it's not big issue. it's not big fault. I see some dogs winning with that collar. but if there are equal quality dog and dog doesn't have collar.... that dog will win over the one has it. i don't want to call it fault but it's not prefered by judge. and I don't want to talk about DQ. lol I have one question Sean. you said prevent placing dog if dog has elimination fault or DQ. what about to pet home??
Tim, I mean placing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. So there are certain faults in Akiho missing teeth comes to mind. If you are missing more than two(I think) your dog would not place. That is an eliminating fault. You could breed the dog. Now in Akiho, Long Coat is a DQ and they would prefer you not to breed it.
In UKC they call it Eliminating Faults and DQ faults. A DQ is reported to UKC and they can remove that dogs. Example significant overshot/undershot bite.
I miss understood. lol thanks for help. English is my 2nd language. you know~! lol I totally agree to not breed dq dogs. why breed them if you can breed with better ones? don't want to pass that to our pups that we will produce in future!
Faster Akitablobs! I really like that darker brindle, the partially collared one. And the red one is starting to grow on me too... I wish I could have one!
Comments
and we all know per the BBC documentary that health and internal conditions are not whats being evaluated at dog shows, so maybe I am not quite perfectly correct that dog shows' purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. Im not a breeder or a show-er, and Ive never even met a JA, so what do I know?
First all dogs have faults. There are various levels of a fault. A tail that doesn't curl enough or curls too much would be a fault. Some faults are elimination faults - prevents you from placing but you can still breed. To disqualification faults - faults that would prevent you from placing and you should not be breeding.
So to clarify this would be a minor fault just a simple point deduction. So in the case of a collar it would not be a DQ fault. Butterfly nose, sickle tail, splayed feet etc would be ones. Significant over or under bite.
Other traits of the dog could overcome that deduction in the ring. I tend to be overly critical of my dogs to begin with. To but it bluntly, I consider myself a shitty salesman.
"..how persistent is collaring in subsequent generations? I guess is the root question..."
Well it seems to be more in this litter than in the last. But as a rule of thumb the less both parents have the less there seems to be. There are plenty of JA's that didn't do that red hot in the ring yet produced fantastic puppies. There is no reason why this pup wouldn't do the same. She may bring qualities to the table that compliment or correct issues in a given stud. The big thing is being up front and point them out during the puppy buying process.
"and we all know per the BBC documentary that health and internal conditions are not whats being evaluated at dog shows, so maybe I am not quite perfectly correct that dog shows' purpose is to evaluate breeding stock. Im not a breeder or a show-er, and Ive never even met a JA, so what do I know? "
Correct a show does not evaluate the health and internal conditions of a dog to a certain extent. For example some standards have a clause that says that poorly conditioned dogs yadda yadda. At the Akiho show the judge checks to make sure the dog has its teeth and proper bite and in the case of the males, the judge makes sure that both boys are in the ring as well.
I have noticed that western shows seem to be more about the dog/handler than it is just the dog.
I do have major reservations of that BBC documentary. It did uncover a lot of issues that typify what is wrong with the show dog world. My big issue was the BBC throwing in a photo of the Japanese Akita and not discussing it. I ended up figuring out what study they used to base the documentary and I bummed because the JA data they had showed the JA in a good light. Somewhere on here, I posted the link.
A dog show is supposed to work like this. Breeder takes dog to the show. Dog is shown and gets noticed by other breeders. Breeder A approaches breeder B to talk about mating. That conversation is where the talk about health of the animal comes in. in a perfect world...the end result is an breeding that should compliment the standard and result in healthy puppies. In the end that doesn't really happen.
Now let me put my JACA hat on and brag for a little bit
why in the end doesnt that really happen? because people are after points and titles?
People like a certain dog and then they choose to breed to it. There is money to be made with high-end championship dogs. So I've been told, I don't think any of us in JACA will ever be in that postion. I'm sure the list goes on.
Honestly, when it comes to shows, I'm a big outsider. I've never been in a major show to begin with.
Ideally a red dog would have absolutely no irish spotting at all. The white markings on a red dog called urajiro are caused by a different gene and irish spotting is completely unnecessary to get a correctly marked dog. However, the irish spotting is necessary to correctly mark a brindle dog and that is why it remains in the gene pool.
it's not big fault.
I see some dogs winning with that collar. but if there are equal quality dog and dog doesn't have collar.... that dog will win over the one has it.
i don't want to call it fault but it's not prefered by judge.
and I don't want to talk about DQ. lol
I have one question Sean. you said prevent placing dog if dog has elimination fault or DQ. what about to pet home??
In UKC they call it Eliminating Faults and DQ faults. A DQ is reported to UKC and they can remove that dogs. Example significant overshot/undershot bite.
I totally agree to not breed dq dogs. why breed them if you can breed with better ones? don't want to pass that to our pups that we will produce in future!
I really like that darker brindle, the partially collared one. And the red one is starting to grow on me too... I wish I could have one!
Brindle 2
Brindle 1
Brindle 3
Brindle 4
Red Male
Here's a comparison of Meichan at 7 weeks vs. Taiheiyo #4
They are distant cousins :-)