Doggie Daycare?
Ok, hear me out first - I've been playing with the idea of putting Ryu into doggie daycare for two days out of the week. We had a sketchy experience last week at the dog park but I still want him to get the benefits of socialization. I'm nervous that he will become dog-aggressive if he doesn't have any interaction with other dogs. Both Tim and I work until mid-evening and we live at least 30 mins from the closest dog park. Would it be silly of me to drop him off at a dog daycare so he can socialize? Has anyone else done this or am I being really irrational?
Comments
Not silly at all - a great idea imo.
We did this with Ahi and she loved it, until she was kicked out (for breed prejudice / fear of the unknown / Shikoku play-style).
We tried it with Maui and Kaia and it didn't work well... but that was due to the daycare.
A nicely run daycare would be great!
I've actually been thinking about this as well, especially now that I have two dogs and I may have a harder time finding friends to take care of them so boarding may be necessary. I haven't done much research at all, but I do know there are very different styles of daycare. Some are "open society" style where the only time the dogs are separated is at feeding time. Others are much more careful about which dogs play with which and so on.
In general though, I have heard nothing but good things from those people that do take their dogs to daycare (assuming the daycare place is a good one).
Seriously dumb. Our tax dollars hard at work....Rather than put you guys up in pet friendly housing at minimal cost they are going to eat the bill for your hotel room and possibly doggy day care because you have a caged bird? If it weren't so asinine I would be outraged.
I'm glad you guys found a place you are happy with!
Alrighty then, Ryu just got back from his Doggie Daycare Evaluation (basically where they determine whether we can enroll him). We had to leave him for 2 hours. When we left, he was his normal jumpy, happy self. When we got back, apparently, he got really nervous in the room with the other dogs (they have 3 separate rooms; one for large breeds, medium and small. He was in the medium one) and pooped and peed everywhere. They said that he seemed like he didn't really know how to play and had a tiny bit of aggression. He's the only non-neutered male (they'll allow him in the room but when the trainer leaves the room, they have to put Ryu in a kennel temporarily until he's fixed) and these two other males (a beagle and a terrier mix) were sort of antagonizing him. There was a female poodle that he tried to play with and they were fine. Overall, they said he would be fine to enroll but we needed to keep an eye out for a rise in aggression. Mainly they said he needs to learn how to play. (by the way, no fights today, just a bit of teeth-showing) The only things that sort of bother me is that they use those correction leashes (you know how Cesar wraps a cord around the dog's neck and pulls up if he needs correcting?) and I'm slightly uncomfortable with that (probably because we don't do that at home). Also, while we talking, a Boston terrier did something (not sure what, I didn't hear or see anything out of line) and she did that stupid touch technique that Cesar does and literally pushed the dog on it's back.
Whew! in the end, he seemed really happy by the time we got there and was pretty worn out so I signed him up for Tuesday and Thursday (7:30 am to 6:30 pm - our typical workday
Once again, (and I only ask because I have a tendency to do so) am I overreacting about the trainers there?
If you don't feel comfortable with the environment you would be leaving your dog in, you shouldn't leave them - it doesn't matter if everyone says the place is great (I don't know, just for example)...if you will worry about what they are doing with your dog while you are not there, don't do it... If you are worried about socialization, try to get into more situations controlled by you with other dogs...puppy parties (we call them), get togethers, etc. And especially if you don't agree with their correction methods. They are not going to change their ways for your dog - so if it's not what you want your dog corrected with, stay away from that situation.
Other alternatives...maybe someone who does a small amt of dog care from their house, friends who have dogs,...I had a friend who had a dog who was a home-maker, and when Jack was a puppy, he went over to her house every day.
Other alternatives may be difficult, but it comes to your comfort, and your dog's comfort. Also, a really bad experience, esp with another dog (but also a really aggressive correction) can effect a dog's future behavior . It depends on the dog - some bounce back, some are more sensitive.
Personally I wouldn't leave him there. It sounds like it would undermine the work you have already done. I am all about positive reinforcement, and save the corrections for when my dogs show aggression toward each other, or chase a kitty, nothing else.
Remember Cesar Milan has a HUGELY popular show, so people will always give rave reviews when they see someone using "Cesar Techniques" even if it is creating fearful, neurotic animals.
Have you ever noticed he doesn't seem to show fearful anxious dogs that need confidence boosting? I'm working with a dog right now at the pound who is afraid to walk anywhere unfamiliar, she just cowers. What would that chucklehead do...hiss at her?
I like Jen's suggestion. I have a dog walker. Before we got Piglet (Pits are not dog park dogs, regardless of what people say) she would take Moto to the dog park. Now she runs the both of them, plays with them, and just breaks up the day. They don't even notice I'm gone, and when she comes over, it is like their favorite Aunt just stopped by. And she uses the same training methods I use so that they receive consistent training.
Trust your gut.
I agree, you should always trust your gut. If you are uncomfortable there is probably a good reason, even if you can't articulate it.
BTW, a lot of people unfamiliar with Shibas think that the way they play is aggressive. Just look at all the pictures that Brandon posts of Nemo's play dates. You see teeth in almost all of them. Lucy and Joey make a *LOT* of noise when they play even if they are just lazily mouthing at each other on the couch. Since it is play behavior in a Shiba, you want to be careful about correcting it. If the behaviorist at the daycare center doesn't understand that Ryu is playing he may get corrected for something that isn't wrong.
It's tough to say from a distance, but it sounds like you might be right to be a little cautious.
Thanks guys - it's nice to know I'm not overreacting and have valid reasons for feeling squeamish. I cancelled his "playcare" reservations and I'm about to schedule another evaluation with a daycare closer to my job. The hours of operation are alot longer and more convenient and they have live streaming video on their website of their play rooms so I can keep watch while at work :-). I'm going to be sure to ask about their discipline and training methods.
On another note, we took Ryu to the dog park yesterday (the first time after our little incident two weeks ago). As soon as we entered, about 6 large-breed dogs (think Goldens, Labs, etc) huddled up around Ryu and he was fine for about 20 seconds. Then he got overwhelmed and started to growl. We redirected him to another spot so he could sniff, pee and walk around a bit. He walked over to a Golden couple and was fine. When the younger Golden kept following him around, he started to growl again until the owner took the Golden away. Then he was fine. After that, he went BACK to the same Golden and started barking and doing his play bow. Then they were all fun and games and running around. Do you think he was just being touchy in the beginning because the bigger dogs were crowding him? I just don't want to downplay these incidents if they are really signs of aggression. I feel bad because I can't control my nervous feelings when a lot of dogs crowd around him and I'm sure he picks up on it.
Pam, that sounds completely normal. There are a few things to consider:
First, growling isn't always a sign of aggression. In this case, it sounds like Ryu was (rightfully) growling to let the other dogs know he was uncomfortable with them violating his space. If the other dogs didn't listen to his warning, then it was them who were behaving inappropriately. That being said, however, you can't count on other dogs to behave properly at a dog park so you should be prepared to step in if they don't listen to Ryu when he tells them to back off.
Second, when a new dog enters the dog park, it takes a few minutes for all of the dogs there to sort out where in the hierarchy they will be. Lucy is always a little uncomfortable during the first five minutes or so. She generally will walk the fence sniffing, do her business, and then once she has settled down she will start running around and playing. It is almost like clock work for her. I can predict within a few seconds when she'll start running and playing. It sounds like Ryu just needed to do the same.
Also, Lucy always gets pissy when a whole group of large dogs greet her and don't allow her space. If it is one or two at a time, she is fine with it.
The moral of the story is....Yes, keep an eye on it. But it doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about.
Dave, that sounds EXACTLY like what happened yesterday. Almost like you were there peeking through the fence... (creepy
Pam - Ninja showed his first sign of aggression at the dog park. He was fine before, but I showed some attention to a Weimaraner puppy and he growled and snapped at the puppy. After that, I never took him back...and since then his aggression has escalated. It could be because we had him neutered too. I would keep a close eye. If you notice him start growling a lot, I might seek advice. For example, Ninja was fine with dogs coming up to him and sniffing him. And then we noticed that he would allow dogs to come sniff him and after a couple of minutes he would growl at them. Now, if a dog is 2 feet close to him, he will start growling and eventually charge if they get too close. But I think Brandon told me this, that if he growls, you should not punish or scold him for it because that will just make him not growl (which is a warning), which could possibly lead to a bite or attack without warning.
But I agree with everyone else, if you don't feel comfortable with the place, don't leave him there. Especially if you don't agree with their style of training.
Thanks Romi - I guess I'm just confused as to what to do when he has scuffles with other pups, like whether we should keep socializing him afterwards so that he gets used to dogs around him or pull him out of high-enery groups to focus on one-on-one training... At times, I feel like I'm setting him up for failure if I keep him away from dogs but then I agree that a dog park is not a very stable place to work on socialization. I'm thinking about starting a puppy meetup in our town so we can work on socialization in a controlled area.... It's so hard to find a place that will allow doggies to run around freely here. One of our military elementary schools has a baseball field nearby that the public can sign up to use so I'm going to fill out an application to see if we can meet there... I am so paranoid about this socialization thing, can you tell? haha
Dave, this is what Tim had to say about your post:
"Babe, You are so protective. No, really, its normal and the dude is right, its normal."
To be honest, I feel pretty selfish since I stopped socializing Ninja with other dogs out of my fear of something bad happening. But I felt that it was the safest thing to do for my dog and for the other dogs out there. I still socialize him with people, I feel that if we can jump over that hurdle, than anything is possible. Im just taking 1 step at a time so I don't overwhelm myself. I think the puppy meet up group would be an excellent source of socialization. Actually, any type of socialization with responsible dog owners is really good because you guys will all be on the same page.
I think that since Japanese breeds are more reactive, people aren't used to it and mistake it for aggression. So it could be that maybe that the other dog owners give you a vibe that Ryu is acting out, when actually, its just a trait of the shiba that they are not used to. Anyways, don't give up! Consistency is best! Just keep going at it and you'll see results, they won't be instant, but you'll see them. Keep your head up Pam, you're doing a great job!
Pam, I absolutely think you should keep socializing him after a scuffle. If he is the instigator, I would leash him and remove him from the park for a few minutes until he clams down and then bring him back in. If it isn't his fault, simply remove him from the situation and let him go about playing again. I think your puppy meetup is a great idea. I hope it works out! And tell Tim that great minds think alike!
----
Romi, you shouldn't feel bad. You clearly care for Ninja very much and it seems like you always do what you think is best for him. And that makes you an awesome dog owner. I think you're doing a great job too!
Romi - I don't think you did the wrong thing, I mean Ninja is not the typical level of reactiveness one would expect from a Shiba, he is pretty reactive (or insecure)... so you did the right thing. If Ninja was faced with the same situation Pam described above he probably would have bite one of the Goldens.
Pam - I am just gonna reiterate what Dave said - growling doesn't always mean aggression... showing teeth, growling, staring, etc. are all ways that dogs communicate their "rules of engagement". <- Shibas have very strict rules of engagement, for example - watch the "Playtime!!" video post - those Shibas are clearly exercising their "shiba" rules of engagement... (they barely even touch)
It sounds like those Goldens were a little more stoked than they should have been when Ryu entered and therefore Ryu was letting them know they needed to give him space. Once he had space and was more comfortable with his environment he initiated play - and then they were best buddies. I think that, if anything, that shows a pretty high level of social aptitude for Ryu.
You did the right thing by redirecting him tho, that way you get him out of the uncomfortable situation so that he could get comfortable.
Dave - Thanks, you're sweet!
Brad - Yeah, I felt that he was becoming a little too reactive, borderline aggressive. Im sure he would have bitten the goldens out of fear or anxiety.
Pam - I think you have a connection with Ryu, like most owners do. Just listen to your gut, if you feel nervous or anxious about a situation, Its best to just prevent it. But Ryu seems to be ok, just a little skiddish, but who wouldn't be in that situation. Anyways, keep us updated! Hope all goes well!