The Aging Canine Athlete
I'm looking for resources/experiences regarding appropriate exercise/feeding for the aging canine athlete. I have found that asking about aging dogs returns a lot of info about aging rather sedentary pet dogs, or aging dogs with musculoskeletal issues, who need supplements. I am trying to adjust my expectations as Reilly ages, and I think by looking at 'typical US pet' resources, she is not accurately served.
Reilly is 10 years old, and has always hiked with me for nearly every day, all weather, at least an hour off leash in the woods each time- often more- Probably 350 days a year, for ten years. She has never been overweight, her vets have always remarked what a nice slow heartbeat she has: "the heart of an athlete" they have said. She is in excellent shape. Her peak weight for most of her life was always within a pound of a rock solid 75 lbs. She has very few health issues- but the last few years she has been developing small mast cell tumors (which we have surgically removed and with good edges). She has good joints, and is never lame, stiff or sore. Most of her teeth are worn down to the gum, except the canines- but she has never chewed rocks or anything- she just has soft greyhound teeth.
BUT...I have been exercising her at this pace forever, and while she is always eager to go, and keeps up, she does range a lot less and she sometimes seems tired, but still very willing to go. She is also losing weight/muscle mass- before her last cancer surgery she was only 68 lbs. She looks gaunt to me, and bony. My vet- who I love- says not to limit her, that if she wants to hike, keep hiking her, the implication being that she is benefiting from the exercise and since she doesnt have arthritis, to keep working her muscles and joints.
I am beginning to think though that I have not been clear enough about how much exercise Reilly gets/is used to, and that perhaps I *am* exercising her too much, as evidenced by her weight loss, which disturbs me. I wonder if there is a point of diminishing returns with a big dog this age? Does she derive the most benefit from, say- the first 30 minutes of hiking and everything after that is just using up her reserves (she has never had any fat on her) and wasting her away? I can hike the kai for hours and bring Rei along, but I am doubting the wisdom of that, considering her system seems stressed. Maybe it is time to retire Reilly from long daily hikes and just give her shorties.
Some things I have already put in place for Rei:
- she has already retired from mountain climbing. She doesnt have the shape for inclines (very chesty and tall, and she gets anxious with scrambles, esp going down) She last took a peak 2 years ago.
- she wears a fleece dog jacket outside in winter- its wicked cold here and she has no undercoat. She has never seemed cold, or shivery or refused to go along, but I am beginning to think she wouldn't show/tell me.
- I sold her backpack, no packing for Rei anymore.
I was talking with Osy a bit about this- and she reminded me how some dogs will never admit they've had enough, and want to go go go! maybe Reilly is like that. I dont know that I can trust her to tell me she's tired. I think I have to make the call for her. I do hike faster ( i find) than many people- just because I hike *with* the dogs and we keep a certain travelling pace, but we also pause to spend time looking at stuff, stopping to swim, take photos of stuff, drinking it in.
I am thinking of changing our exercise regimen to give her less duration but still everyday.
When I dont hike the dogs, they play more in the yard. I dont think it is a good exchange for a old dog to swap measured travelling for roughousing- BUT the level to which she plays/doesnt play in the yard might guide me to whether she has had too much hiking, or not enough, since when we are on trail, she will follow me to the ends of the earth as long as I say Let's Go! If I reduce her hike load and she still doesn't play, then I can know that she actually IS tired and reduce it more till I find the sweet spot.
Another thing I can do is adjust her food. She eats 3 cups a day of high quality kibble, with variety and mixins. I also think there is a point of diminishing returns here too. I cant feed her RMB due to her not having teeth- she is a gulper. I dont feed her grain-free- she doesnt need that intensity, and at her age protein processing is a concern on her kidneys. (Though her bloodwork has always been fine) Plus she loves oatmeal. I think if she could make her own dinner, it would be ground beef and oatmeal, with cottage cheese, eggs and vegetables. I have experimented with Honest Kitchen- its dehydrated, healthy and can be served warm like oatmeal- no chewing needed!- and she seems to really like it. I dont know if I can afford to feed it to her all the time though. There may be a better balanced food for her exercise and age than the kibbles I am choosing at this time.
I realize most of the people here have puppies and young dogs, but anyone who has- or has had- old dogs, esp athletic or working dogs- well, what do you know? share!
Reilly is 10 years old, and has always hiked with me for nearly every day, all weather, at least an hour off leash in the woods each time- often more- Probably 350 days a year, for ten years. She has never been overweight, her vets have always remarked what a nice slow heartbeat she has: "the heart of an athlete" they have said. She is in excellent shape. Her peak weight for most of her life was always within a pound of a rock solid 75 lbs. She has very few health issues- but the last few years she has been developing small mast cell tumors (which we have surgically removed and with good edges). She has good joints, and is never lame, stiff or sore. Most of her teeth are worn down to the gum, except the canines- but she has never chewed rocks or anything- she just has soft greyhound teeth.
BUT...I have been exercising her at this pace forever, and while she is always eager to go, and keeps up, she does range a lot less and she sometimes seems tired, but still very willing to go. She is also losing weight/muscle mass- before her last cancer surgery she was only 68 lbs. She looks gaunt to me, and bony. My vet- who I love- says not to limit her, that if she wants to hike, keep hiking her, the implication being that she is benefiting from the exercise and since she doesnt have arthritis, to keep working her muscles and joints.
I am beginning to think though that I have not been clear enough about how much exercise Reilly gets/is used to, and that perhaps I *am* exercising her too much, as evidenced by her weight loss, which disturbs me. I wonder if there is a point of diminishing returns with a big dog this age? Does she derive the most benefit from, say- the first 30 minutes of hiking and everything after that is just using up her reserves (she has never had any fat on her) and wasting her away? I can hike the kai for hours and bring Rei along, but I am doubting the wisdom of that, considering her system seems stressed. Maybe it is time to retire Reilly from long daily hikes and just give her shorties.
Some things I have already put in place for Rei:
- she has already retired from mountain climbing. She doesnt have the shape for inclines (very chesty and tall, and she gets anxious with scrambles, esp going down) She last took a peak 2 years ago.
- she wears a fleece dog jacket outside in winter- its wicked cold here and she has no undercoat. She has never seemed cold, or shivery or refused to go along, but I am beginning to think she wouldn't show/tell me.
- I sold her backpack, no packing for Rei anymore.
I was talking with Osy a bit about this- and she reminded me how some dogs will never admit they've had enough, and want to go go go! maybe Reilly is like that. I dont know that I can trust her to tell me she's tired. I think I have to make the call for her. I do hike faster ( i find) than many people- just because I hike *with* the dogs and we keep a certain travelling pace, but we also pause to spend time looking at stuff, stopping to swim, take photos of stuff, drinking it in.
I am thinking of changing our exercise regimen to give her less duration but still everyday.
When I dont hike the dogs, they play more in the yard. I dont think it is a good exchange for a old dog to swap measured travelling for roughousing- BUT the level to which she plays/doesnt play in the yard might guide me to whether she has had too much hiking, or not enough, since when we are on trail, she will follow me to the ends of the earth as long as I say Let's Go! If I reduce her hike load and she still doesn't play, then I can know that she actually IS tired and reduce it more till I find the sweet spot.
Another thing I can do is adjust her food. She eats 3 cups a day of high quality kibble, with variety and mixins. I also think there is a point of diminishing returns here too. I cant feed her RMB due to her not having teeth- she is a gulper. I dont feed her grain-free- she doesnt need that intensity, and at her age protein processing is a concern on her kidneys. (Though her bloodwork has always been fine) Plus she loves oatmeal. I think if she could make her own dinner, it would be ground beef and oatmeal, with cottage cheese, eggs and vegetables. I have experimented with Honest Kitchen- its dehydrated, healthy and can be served warm like oatmeal- no chewing needed!- and she seems to really like it. I dont know if I can afford to feed it to her all the time though. There may be a better balanced food for her exercise and age than the kibbles I am choosing at this time.
I realize most of the people here have puppies and young dogs, but anyone who has- or has had- old dogs, esp athletic or working dogs- well, what do you know? share!
Comments
My brother feeds Russell high-fat and high-protein to keep weight on him. He sheds weight super-easy and is usually trim between 68-72. He should probably be more than that. With an older dog, high-protein isn't really an option, but I'd go for something with the highest fat content.
Russell also gets a probiotic (fortiflora) which seems to help with keeping weight on him. Sweet potatoes are always a good supplement. Nutrical if he's super-picky. He gets 5 cups of his regular kibble.
Have you checked Greyhound forums or information? There are lots of older Greyhounds (8+) in my area. Maybe I can ask how they keep weight on their dogs next time I meet one.
We havent used any probiotics- but maybe I should?
This is my only forum...
Someone recommended I make Satin Balls for her to eat- anyone ever try that?
I have never personally used them, but I know they are popular for giving the dogs extra calories either for work or weight. There's all sorts of "recipes" you can make too. ~
BUT
I know quite a few older greyhounds whose owners have remarked on the loss of rear quarter muscle mass (not just limited to greys, Beebe has also lost a lot of rear muscle mass). Winstrol (stanozolol) was for decades a treatment for it, and some still swear by it. It also helped their appetites.
Oatmeal, eggs and hamburger is a great idea, and is a trick I have seen and used to help keep weight on lean dogs. They have to eat protein to build muscle mass. The grains and pasta give them the appearance of bulking up, but they need good protein to gain muscle. I think greyhounds get too skinny on grain free/higher protein levels tho, personally. You may want to be careful of satin balls unless she is actually ill/not eating. You wouldn't want to give her pancreatitis or splodey squirts.
I think starting some supplements like MSM would certainly help with aging joints if she and you decide long hikes are not as important for quality of life. You have added years to her life IMO with that level of good healthy exercise. Degenerative joint disease from wear and tear can be hastened by impact and repeated use, however, regardless of dogs that have existing joint issues or not. I think your suggestion of doing shorter walks is a happy medium and probably wise to preserve current joint function and limit excessive wear and tear.
That's what I was referring to anyway :x Also, just to be clear...& I know Chrys knows better, but I'll throw it out there...I was thinking of them as a supplement, like, for long hikes not as a complete meal. ~
I was thinking more like how people have high-protein bars for long hikes / runs / etc. so that they don't run out of energy.
I'm so confused about garlic. I keep hearing "It's poison for dogs!" & then other people say it's "fine." -_- ~
It just amazes me as garlic is suppose to be amazingly healthy for humans. Arg! Confusing! ~
So perhaps I work on proper supplements/fish oil/MSM and opt her in or out of the long hikes on a case by case basis.
I want to adjust before she loses too much, and before she wears down from overuse. Cancer and incontinence aside, she's still a strong healthy dog.
She has had a tendency to develop lipomas on her sides, (the vet has removed some of these with her mast cell tumors when they are close enough to the MCTs) but as she is a lean machine, I am not sure what causes them.
There actually are energy bars for hiking dogs! (eg. Zukes Power Bones, et al.) I havent used them, but Reilly would probably love that...good reminder, Osy!
Just some random thoughts
My dogs all digest their food better when they get ground roasted chicory root sprinkled on top or mixed in.
Grain-free, in my opinion, isn't all it's cracked up to be. A lot of grain-free foods are crappier than grain-inclusive foods. It's good for some dogs but not for all of them, and mine do great on a grain-inclusive diet, especially the problematic Shiba. He was at his worst on a grain/carb free diet, oddly enough.
I'd either up her food ration, add lunch or just a bit extra to her two meals, or mix up a concoction of eggs, ground beef, a dash of beef liver, and oatmeal, etc. and slop it on top of what she currently gets. I use raw meat and eggs but cooked works fine too.
Juneau is nearing 8 which isn't "old" to me, but she has shown a couple signs of aging. Her muzzle is beginning to go gray, she sleeps more than she used to, but she is still incredibly active and energetic when I take her out. However, I've noticed that she gets thin somewhat easily and that's not been much of a problem in the past, and that mix helps to keep her filled out yet lean at the same time. (When she's eating kibble, that is. Right now she gets raw/cooked foods and there isn't a problem as far as weight goes.)
Sasha has always been more sedentary than Juneau, and after her weight-loss intervention she's been more active and healthy, so I haven't noticed the aging with her as much as Juneau.
Conker has always had problems with keeping healthy weight on, and I am constantly tweaking his diet because of that and his digestive issues. He's gonna be a huge(er) pain in the butt when he's old, I just know it.
He doesn't keep up with Bella and I on hikes anymore, after around 10km (6ml) he will struggle on up hills. I have found small amounts of energy dense food throughout the walk to help his stamina and reduce weight loss due to extended exercise. I can normally get 15-20km out of him, worst case I carry him the last few km :P
I don't exercise my dogs the day after a big hike. We do 2-4km most weekdays, but with the brutal up hills I have been reducing this to 1.5-2km for Suki's sake. It is also wet and bitterly cold at the moment.
I have been supplementing with flaxseed chunks when they will eat them, but with the eggs they seem to do alright. (my bitch gets grain free energy dense foods most of the time)
I think you are on track with most of what you do and will be interested to see if a reduction in activity helps.
Some Zuke's products are carried in larger chain stores, but they tend to be more expensive than other types of stores. Do you have any feedstores around? Those sometimes carry Zuke's stuff too.
@Losech How much goats' milk do you give them- Juneau and Sasha are Reilly-sized, arent they? 75 lbs? and do you feed it everyday? If this seems helpful, I will need to source it somewhere else- I paid through the freakin nose for the goats milk at the dog food store....
What kibble is carb free? Grain free kibble I've fed has potatoes or sweet potatoes which I believe are a carb.
Only way I can see going carb free is raw diet, but I know that isn't possible for you due to teeth and size of the dog. Kibble needs something to bind it either grains, potatoes, peas, or whatever else they use.
I give fish oil every so often I do feed some grass fed meat or organs so I don't use fish oil as often.
I do give coconut oil every so often Saya and Bella loves the taste.
I'm out of the coconut oil, but place I get it has 2gallons on sale which last me for cooking and dogs for while.
If your dog handles grains fine no need change kibble. I know some dogs don't do well on it some do fine.
Bella has had both grain kibble and grain free Saya too when on kibble and both did pretty good. I like to rotate between varieties for Bella it works for her as she is young.
Saya gets kibble for low value treat.
I seen goats milk at pet stores in the freezers when I visited Wisconsin.. I seen it in powder form too, but I'd think the powdered would lose it's value..
I wonder if you could find a farmer with goat and see if price be cheaper to get from them? Maybe if you explain it's for your dog they won't have to worry about humans drinking the raw milk.
Farmer I get meat, lamb ribs, and organs from gives me deal when I buy good amount of stuff at one time.
How much did you pay for it? My farm's raw goats milk goes for $11 a gallon or $6 a half gallon. The raw cows milk is a bit cheaper at $8 a gallon and $4 a half gallon. I can either buy the extra milk, or wait to see if someone didn't pick theirs up and just have that. While waiting for someone to forget doesn't cost me anything, it's not fresh anymore, and I prefer the freshest milk possible for drinking.
I think in Vermont the only way you can get raw milk (other than through a pet store, since it's technically not for human consumption) is direct from a farm. So, you'll probably have to find a local farmer who sells milk on-farm.
Direct from the farm or through a CSA or cow share the only way to get it here in Oregon.
This goats milk (Answers goat milk for cats and dogs) was $9 for a quart! I can;t buy like that, but I can afford cows milk from Taylor Farm for all of us. I dont know (yet) a goat farmer locally, but I havent really looked. Farmer's market is Saturday, so I can poke around and see what I can find out.
I'm beginning to wonder, honestly, if this is why Leo is so itchy all the time. I've tried a different diet for him with no success, but of course, probably before I get up, Leo is getting cows milk. Grrrrrrr....
Link on dairy and dogs:
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-feeding-tips/dogs-milk-dairy-products/
General difference between raw goat's milk and cow's milk:
http://homesteadrevival.blogspot.com/2010/09/goat-milk-v-cow-milk-raw-showdown.html
Another interesting page:
http://answerspetfood.com/additional.html
http://www.thepetbeastro.com/2013/03/health-benefits-of-raw-goats-milk-for-pets/
and in general, says goat's milk is easier to digest and is more nutrient rich