akita growth.

edited October 2013 in Akita (秋田犬)
Just wanted to share this information.

Akita is very slow growing dog. (I can't really explain it well since I'm not perfect in English.) some akita grow till 18 months on height as well. after height they develope their structure till 4 years old.
akiho consider full grown after 4 years old. that is why Meiyosho come out of dogs over 4 years old.

here is pic of puppy leg. you see the bump? ppl call it growth plate. most of dogs will fully grow(height) after 10 months.
photo leg_zps0988a082.jpg

here is leg of dog at 10 month old. you see that growth plate is gone right?
photo leg2_zps8e0324e4.jpg

This dog's name is Tenbou. he got meiyosho.

this is pic when he was 1 year old.
photo tenbo1_zpsae9a1b45.jpg

this pic is when he was 3 years old. you see the difference? this dog looks totally different when he got into fully grown stage. some dogs are not great at young age but becomes very nice when they get older. some dogs are opposite.
I saw alot of dogs were amazing at young age. and wins alot of shows at early age. but alot of them can't win at adult stage. because of many reason. lack of care, developing issue, condition etc.
photo tenbo4_zps95ddb85a.jpg

add or correct me if there is any comments to add or correct. I'm still in stage of learning about akita and I just wanted to share information that i think it's interesting.

Tim
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Comments

  • edited October 2013
    Hi Tim,

    Thanks for posting this topic. I am very interested in how other Akita ken's compare to my dog. Saigo is 9 months and he is about 65 lbs ( tummy is tucked and he is very lean ). How much does Tachi weigh at this age?

    Saigo appears to still have pretty big paws and big growth plates. This was him at almost 7 months:
    image

    What is standard weight and height for a male Akita ken? I think I knew Saigo was going to be a big boy ( he had huge ears and heavy bones as a puppy ) and his sire, Man Jin Go was a big boned dog.
  • edited October 2013
    Typical is 70-85lbs for a male, average around 75lbs.
  • Tachi was 60 lbs at that age. and now he is 70. he is not big male akita.

    Saigo do look like typical shirai dog. but I can't tell size by this pic. did you try to measure his height correctly?

    not that it matters much but you should size him by height not weight.
  • Thanks Tim.
    I will measure his height today. I will have to try to find a measuring tape! :)

    Yes, he is very typical Shirai dog. Are Shirai dogs bigger/smaller than other kennels or what is their "type"?
  • Shirai dogs grow/mature very quickly but in general are smaller and lighter-boned. They often seem like they're going to be big, but its just cause they grow like weeds. Its a trade-off for the refined facial features... you get more delicate structure, too.
  • Most of show dog from shirai has very nice face. looks different with other kennel.
    you can tell by looking at their face to tell that they are from shirai.
  • edited October 2013
    Thanks for the response Tim and Claire. I think Shirai dogs have cute looking faces, but noticed that their bodies are on the slimmer/smaller side. He is very gawky right now so will probably proportion out, good to know it takes 4+ years because he's got a lot of filling out to do! :)

    I also like Shirai dogs ears (Gojira has the most perfect triangles) unfortunately Saigo's ears are like big pizza slices. I love Kozaki dogs for their overall structure and nice heads.
  • Gojira didn't always have perfect ears! That takes time too; the dog's backskull needs to fill in and push the ears forward, and the face needs to broaden to get the ears sitting on the sides correctly. This will take longer to happen on males than females.
  • Since timkim opened the growth discussion, what about the chest? My JA Akita Tajo is now 1 year old, but his chest looks narrow...

    Usually at what age the chest develops?
  • edited October 2013
    Chest is the LAST thing. Dogs may reach height by a year and a half, but it can take up to 3 or 4 years old for the chest to drop and fill in.

    Mosura was 25" by a year old (tall for a bitch, but still just within allowed height) but only started gaining chest and real substance in the past four months. Now she looks fantastic -- and I never would have guessed she'd improve so much from how skinny she was at the show in February. But despite her broad chest and great height, she is not heavy, just 60 lbs. That's why weight doesn't tell you everything about a dog.
  • Personally I feel that we over state the actual average weight of these dogs. I think the range is more toward 70-80.

    I agree completely with the time-table for these dogs filling out. JACA is starting to work on it's judge's education materials and we plan on talking about this subject. When working on the UKC standard, I went with preferred height. This would allow a dog to mature without the fear of being DQ-ed.

    For the width of chest, my favorite akita book - "Basic's of the Akita Inu" talks about using pulling exercises to help build that wider chest. Some of the judges that have come out to the states have confirmed pulling exercises. Remember most of us do not have "dog boys" to train out dogs. We also teach our dogs to walk by our side or slightly in front of us.

    For my next Akita, I plan on following a modified version of the training listed in the book.

    @Tajo - I would expect your dog to fill in closer to year two.

  • That is why ppl in japan likes their dog pulling when they run with their dogs using scooter. So they can get wider. Tachi and haku pulls alot and both of them has wide chest. Karin always walk by my side and never pulls but she has ok chest as well. Lol i love my dogs.
  • edited October 2013
    Can't wait till mine grows older and fills out. At the moment I feel that he looks the same as he did at 6months, but people who don't see him all the time are always suprised at how much he's grown. My breeder have told me that his fater was a "slow bloomer", thinking that means Tanuki will start to look his best from year four an onwards (like most dogs I guess). He is currently 30kg, that's about 5kg lower than other male akitas I know that are his age, but must add that I've been very carefull with giving too much energy in the feed to avoid "growing pains" and other bone diseases common in large breed dogs.

    6months (with fur):
    photo P5149198_zpsb4c8990c.jpg

    11 months, 3 weeks (naked):
    photo 1382901_10201529339730580_1387774269_n_zpsf6a15880.jpg
  • Toki around 3 or 4 months. (Toki on left, Zuma [his sister] on right)
    image

    Toki at around 17mo:
    image

    Toki around 24 mo:
    image


    Of course, I am still learning the way akitas grow. So anyone can chime in and correct me.

    Toki was wider chested at 3 months versus as a teenager (17 mo) when he had his growth spurt, and is just now starting to barely widen his chest (24 mo). However, I still consider him a teenager/young adult with a lot of room to grow. Having said that, could just be something only a mama can see :P

    I honestly don't expect Toki to have a mature body until around 4 or 5+ years old; I expect him to take his time. His mother looked her best at 6 years old, thus I have to take this "age like a fine wine" idea into account. His sister still looks puppy-ish, albeit, in my opinion, better put together.

    (also, having said that, I think females mature MUCH quicker than males, so that really isn't putting much into perspective, if I am right).
  • Tanuki and Toki are so good looking! Love that brindle!

    This is kind of related to growth, so I'm going to ask it here, esp. since paranoidparrot brings up the food issue. What do you all think about feeding to support the slower growth of the Akitas? Like probably not feeding a puppy blend, I'd guess (at least I wouldn't do that), but do you think there is a danger in getting too much protein or anything at an early age or not? Some people have told me they absolutely don't want the young dogs getting a protein heavy food, while others have not.

    In the past, since, I'm a raw feeder, I just waited til the pups were able to handle raw with bones (often about 5 months) and switched them over. I know people who have GSDs and wean them to raw with no apparent problems in later life, but....I just started thinking, well, can't hurt to do more research and see if I need to change things up. Links would be useful, of course!

  • I don't feed puppy food, but I do feed food that meets AAFCO nutritional profile for all life stages (as opposed to adult maintenance profile). The issue with puppy food is that it can increase the growth of bones but nothing increases soft tissue growth, so then you end up with joint problems.
  • I don't feed puppy food, but I do feed food that meets AAFCO nutritional profile for all life stages (as opposed to adult maintenance profile). The issue with puppy food is that it can increase the growth of bones but nothing increases soft tissue growth, so then you end up with joint problems.
    Thanks, that's one thing I was vague on. I didn't ever feed puppy food because so many breeders had told me not to,but I didn't bother to do much more follow up research on why.

  • We just had a chat about this in our Internal Medicine class (also learnt about it in nutrition, but in internal it was with focus on disease). Our vet told us that while she is very pro-raw whenever she is talking to an owner with a large breed puppy she will urge them to use commercial puppy food for large breeds until they are done growing, THEN they can start raw.

    A couple of years ago restricting protein was the way to go, but now they have done new research (yay to science!) and find that the protein is very important (surprise, surprise), so what they are doing now with large breed puppy food is restricting the amount of fat. I just recently changed Nuki to adult food because while the puppy food made him grow nicely it is not doing much to fill him out, that will be the job of the adult food :)
  • Thanks, Paranoid Parrot! What is the reason, then, for not starting raw until the puppy is an adult? Since I'd heard people talking about protein levels, I'd assumed it was the too high of protein in some raw diets (esp. BARF or prey model) but if that's not the case, then I wonder why your vet thinks it is important to wait? Just trying to sort through this stuff! :)
  • edited October 2013
    I have always leery of raw feeding because it doesn't meet nutrional profiles. I would think any minor deviation (eg. from a specific local herd or harvest that is impossible to test for) would have a greater chance of negative impact than on an adult. Growing puppies are very sensitive when it comes to nutrition. Hence why some pups "knuckle over" and why a change of diet can fix it.
  • Well I disagree on raw feeding, and am not going to change on that overall, but I did want some information on feeding puppies, and it does make sense that they might be more sensitive. I'm wondering what exactly they might be sensitive too, though, but I'll do further research elsewhere...I just thought someone might be able to point me in the right direction quickly.

    I've certainly known raw feeders who wean to raw and have very healthy long lived dogs, so I don't think even feeding raw to puppies is necessarily a problem, but since it's been awhile since I looked into this, I thought it wouldn't hurt to do so now.
  • I wasn't trying to dissuade you from raw feeding. Just guessing (and it is a guess -- since its not something I do) as to why it might be problematic for puppies.
  • Most of our dogs were weaned on raw and that is what they ate all their life. For the first litter we did the same, when it was weaning time they got beef and chicken wings/necks. Unfortunately, some of the new owners were not fans of raw feeding and it was difficult to make the switch, so for the second litter we weaned them on all life stages kibble (taste of the wild lamb). We don't use puppy kibble and we try to stay under 26% protein for all dogs because I've noticed this is what works best with our Akitas. Too much protein causes a growth spurt and it takes much longer for the puppy to gain width. My vet also suggests feeding kibble until the puppies are 8 months old because she says that the intake of protein is balanced throughout the period.
  • @Shibamistress her argument was that they have more spesific needs than the "average" puppy and keeping a correct diet on raw will be difficult in this period. E.g. they need lower calcium/phosphorous ratio which is already decreased in commercial feeds, but because a too low amount is just as bad as too high amount I figure it is hard to control in homemade diets.

    I guess we all know it is important to avoid too big growth spurts as it may cause developmental diseases. Earlier it was common to restrict the amount of protein, but protein is the source of the most important building-blocks in the body so the "new" thing we learn is to restrict the amount of fat.

    Of course puppy blends are not good for all puppies. If they e.g. live outside in a kennel they will need more energy to keep warm. Our breeder rawfeeds both pups and adults and they are all very healthy. Personally I am staying with kibbles because I know that I will not be able to do it right :p
  • This is a very interesting discussion for me as now my JA puppy is hitting the 7 month mark I am noticing her growth slow down but again like @parranoidparrot said people who do not see her every day always comment on how much she has grown. I am really looking forward to seeing how she changes from here, how she will fill out etc

    I switched Keiko to a raw diet when she was around 4/5 months and I have noticed such a difference in her digestion, energy levels and her coat looks amazing. I was concerned about ensuring she gets the right levels of nutrition and calcium/phosphorous but I was recommended to a site by the owner of Keiko's sister @venus called the dogs dinner and there is detailed information and a guide to feeding raw to puppies which I have found extremely helpful and apart from little moments of fussiness with certain meats I have had no issues so far and she seems to be developing really well.

    The site is called the dogs dinner and here is the link to the puppy page: http://dogsdinner2.webs.com/feedingpuppies.htm
  • edited February 2014
    i know this thread is a few months old but i just wanted to add this list to this thread as it is very helpful to me in selecting a proper food for the new puppy i am looking to acquire particularly because like some others i am not comfortable with my knowledge of nutrition to undertake preparing my own raw diet for a growing pup, nor do i have an extra freezer to hold and thaw food nor sources of meat, etc... not sure if any of you are familiar with dogfoodadvisor.com but it is a very helpful site and their forum members obviously are very serious about their dog food and offer a lot of great advice, i am not a member there just have read some stuff there that is very helpful. one of their more regular members created a list of high quality commercial foods as rated by dogfoodadvisor.com that meet the needs for large breed growth. and like many have already said it's not the protein that is the concern it's the calcium

    forum topic, with many helpful and insightful posts and articles on the topic:
    http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/forums/topic/large-and-giant-breed-puppy-nutrition/

    one article i liked in particular: “Growth and Skeletal Development of Great Dane Pups Fed Different Levels of Protein Intake” Nap, Hazewinkel, Voorhout, Van Den Brom, Goedegebuure and Van ‘T Klooster
    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S107.full.pdf

    List of suggested commercial foods:
    https://docs.google.com/a/dogfoodadvisor.com/file/d/0BwApI_dhlbnFTXhUdi1KazFzSUk/edit?pli=1

    from doctor mike who rates the food for that site in regard to the list:
    Hound Dog Mom,
    Thanks for posting your list of recommended foods for large breed puppies. The commercial products it contains appear to be both practical and well-researched.


    --one member there said, "Did I say, “I love this thread!”…I have learned so much. And to think of the foods I fed before I thought I knew what I was doing… I’m so glad I know better now." ....prior to finding that topic i was planning on feeding Orijen Large breed puppy formula, after i was still able to find a food that met my criteria of not having been recalled and being manufactured at their own plant while still having appropriate calcium levels, i ended up choosing Fromm's Surf and Turf grain free formula for the first year and then transition to Orijen adult or Petcurean Go! (still marked all life stages food) after the first year...helped me a lot, thought i might add it here as others might find it useful as well, the list also contains suggested RAW diets for large breed (akita) growth, as well as grain free, and grain inclusive ones

    and on the topic of protein from that thread:

    "Yes – high levels of protein (preferably animal-based protein) is a very good things as dogs have a strong carnivorous bias and are designed to eat a primarily meat-based diet. When I fed kibble I never fed foods with less than 30% protein. My dogs now eat a raw diet with protein levels ranging between 45% and 55% at each meal....No, I’m not a vet – but I’m back in school working towards it so hopefully in a few years!...[a kibble with] 42% protein is definitely not too high – my girls’ meals are generally in the 45% – 55% protein range. There’s really no risk of feeding “too much protein” to a healthy dog and this issue definitely would not occur with a kibble – most kibbles are much lower in protein than a natural raw diets due to the nature of kibble (a starch source is required for processing). When excess protein is consumed beyond what the dog’s body utilizes, the excess amino acids are catabolized into waste nitrogen, converted to urea in the liver and kidneys and excreted in the urine. This is a passive process that does not cause any harm or additional stress to the dog. I personally prefer kibbles with at least 30% protein."
  • @Kimi_Forever I live in an RV. My fridge is 1/5 (or less) the size of your average American refrigerator, the freezer is the size of a shoebox. I feed raw just fine without a freezer. I greatly prefer one, it certainly makes things easier (and cheaper) but it's not required. I do have to buy meat fairly often since I have limited storage space, and I can thaw stuff in the sink if I need to. I just buy meat from the butcher and grocery, nothing fancy about it.

    I tend to agree with what was written in that quote. When I feed them commercial foods, my dogs never get kibble under 30% protein, and I often add in fresh meats and eggs. A lot of people say raw is low protein but if you take away the moisture it's higher than they think. An average raw meal I feed my Shiba (chicken leg, beef heart and liver, high-fat ground beef, egg) has around 46 grams of protein, which is more than EVO red meat which has 44 grams per cup (he would eat 1 cup of this kibble).
  • edited February 2014
    losech: i may move to raw feeding in the future (for both our cats and new puppy im lookin for), i am still building confidence in making a switch over to it, and trying to make it practical. as i definitely believe raw is the best and kibble probably the worst. i need to do more research on it but i tend to like what i've read so far about prey model raw, do you follow a certain model of raw feeding or?...I used to feed my akita EVO (both the red meat and the chicken formula) back before P&G bought out natura pet and before all the recalls, then i switched to merrick grain free buffalo, and real texas beef which i think is OKAY, but i like orijen, pet currean, and fromm a little better as companies then merrick, however i still feed our cats merrick as it's what they'll eat, they became picky...
  • No, I don't follow a certain model. In fact, grains are a normal part of my dog's diet, which makes it "not true raw" according to some people. I only feed a few "raw only" meals. Most of the time I feed a mix of bone-in chicken, beef heart and liver, ground beef, random turkey bits, pork, gizzards, eggs, rice, oats, and various veggies from the farm I work at. There are a few supplements like fish oil, ground roasted chicory root (food for probiotic bacteria), and certain things for individual dogs. Sometimes they get leftovers or a splash of raw cow or goat milk. I like to call it a whole-foods diet since it isn't strictly raw and it's not overly processed.
    Everything is balanced (with some leeway depending on what's being fed) according to 2006 NRC recommended nutrient levels, so it's not like I'm just randomly throwing things together and hoping for the best.

    I think it's rather hilarious that people think you must feed a kibble or your dogs won't be getting proper nutrient amounts. If this were true, most dogs eating commercial foods would be seriously messed up. What I feed is more "balanced" than all kibbles I have run the numbers with. The nutrient profiles of kibbles vary so widely that almost none are similar, even amongst the same brand. (Some, like Fromm, are almost identical, but others like Nature's Variety, have some formulas that are very different.)
  • @loosech - since you say raw>kibble, what would you feed a growing pup? Have you feed it? Notice a difference in raw vs kibs? Is there a thread on this? I would love to get everyone input.
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