I don't believe there is a thread on raw vs kibble for growing pups... There are several about feeding raw though, do a search in the nutrition section and you'll find them.
I haven't had a "puppy" pup since Juneau and Sasha were puppies 8 years ago. They were fed Pedigree (I call it Pedicrap) for 5 years of their life before we knew better about canine nutrition. I got Conker at 4 months. He was on Science Diet when I got him (yuck!) and I tried a few high-quality kibbles before switching to raw foods. So, he was still growing but wasn't fed real foods for a good portion of that time. He does best on wholefoods, but he has digestive problems so it's tough to feed him anything consistently. I got Katana at 5 months and he ate Taste of the Wild (I think?) as a kibble. Not sure if Shigeru fed him anything else. He was switched to primarily raw foods and has done well on it. He is very muscular but I attribute that more to being intact and his breed than what he eats. Right now my dogs are getting kibble but I mix in an egg every day and other things like beef heart and liver, and they get a boney thing at least once a week. My dogs do best on high-protein foods, so no matter what I am feeding they always get a lot of that. I've tried feeding them lower protein (25%) kibbles before and they lose muscle mass, skin gets flaky, coats dull, and they stink.
So, I can't really compare how a pup fed kibble grows compared to one fed wholefoods. Some people say that a pup fed fresh foods will be more muscular than one fed kibble, but I think that depends more on what's in the kibble (and raw food), the dog's genetics, and how much exercise it gets, as opposed to only raw vs kibble.
No, I do not have a Shikoku. I have a Shiba named Conker and a Hokkaido named Katana, and two Border Collie X Labrador Retrievers named Juneau and Sasha.
@shikoku - on the shiba side, and very occasionally here, @tengai feed raw to his pups. He's the breeder from whom I got my shibas and I know he weans his pups onto raw with no issues. You might want to try pming him if you want feedback. My vet thought our pups looked good on this diet and told me to keep pinging my breeder for raw feedback since it was clear the pups were getting a well balanced meal and that he knew what he was doing.
We do a partial raw partial kibble diet, following the general guidelines of muscle, organ, and bone proportions used for prey model raw. We're pretty easy going though and give them non-meat items like veggies and dairy (mostly cheese, yogurt, eggs, and frozen peas or roasted sweet potatoes). For snacks we purchase things that are grain free (honest kitchen, primal, vital essentials all make good snacks) or things like niboshi or nori with no additives. I'll feed my pups things like the bonito I use to make dashi too. Even if we switched to all raw though, I personally don't see an issue having some vegetables or random snacks.
I've thought about both sides of this re: puppy feeding. My best friend had a GSD weaned to raw (from raw fed parents). I fed my Shibas raw as soon as I got them (so at 8 weeks and 5 months). However, I became concerned about too high levels of protein for puppies in larger breeds when I got my Akitas, because breeders suggested that for large breeds, slow growth was better, and to not give too much protein. Besides that, both my Akitas seemed unable to eat raw with bone easily as pups, and couldn't seem to digest it well. (The shibas just gobbled down chicken wings as 8 week old pups, but not the Akitas, nor was my Kai Ken able to handle raw until he had his adult teeth).
So I have been feeding kibble (all stages, not puppy food), to the pups, and I switch them to raw when they get adult teeth and seem to be able to handle it better. And they love it, too. Right now I'm feeding my 5 month old Akita a mix of grain free kibble and raw meals. Since she still gets a morning meal (I feed my adult dogs only once a day), it's easier for me to feed her kibble in the morning and raw at night.
I learned how to feed raw years ago, about 15 years ago or more, when there wasn't much info. on it. I still tend to follow Dr. Billinhurst's BARF diet, though he (and I!) have changed the amount of bone in the diet. I don't find the diet very difficult, honestly, and have not had to worry about the exact amount of nutrients, etc, and my dogs seem to do well on it. They mostly get raw chicken with bones, but they also get coconut or fish oil, and occasional organ meat. They get plenty of table scraps in their food, so they get more variety than just the chicken. I just buy chicken from the grocery store (mostly we feed leg quarters), too, but having a freezer helps a lot because we can buy a lot when it is on sale. I also buy whatever I see that is "reduced for quick sale" at the grocery store.
Shiba Mistress( and to anyone who might be of help with my question): may i ask what brand of grain free kibble you are feeding? And also since it's an All Life stages food and not a puppy food i was wondering how you determine how much to feed. Since i will be facing the problem feeding an All life stages food instead of a puppy, the back of the bag (that i will be feeding: http://frommfamily.com/products/four-star/dog/dry/grain-free-surf-turf) gives recommended feeding suggestions by weight but then says puppy's may be fed 2x-4x more, suggesting that their feeding guideline was more for adults then a puppy suggestion. Whereas a lot of puppy food's i've seen give more specific feeding guidelines i.e.:
which says if a puppy is between "x" and "y" weeks and weighs "z" feed this amount...just been thinking about how to figure out how much to offer a growing pup from an AllLifeStages food with more adult guidelines listed...
@Kimi_Forever I had Saigo on Orijen Large breed puppy until he got his adult teeth (around 5 months) then switched to Orijen adult. I think in terms of kibble, this is one of the best ( if you can't feed the freeze dried Orijen dog food ) - the raw food store I buy from carries only this kibble as they feel it's the only kibble that's good enough for dogs.
i agree that orijen is simply the best dog food made, imo...there are a few others i think are good though,obviously their other line Acana i like, and petcurean go! i like as well. Epigen by wysong, fromm, and maybe a few others i cant remember off the top of my head, i think are good enough to feed...the freeze dried orijen is a little out of my price range, i could maybe swing it for a puppy the first few months though but probably not for an adult. i also like ziwipeak (if you've heard of it, it's like raw, it's air dried) but it's also out of my price range (would cost me around 10$ a day to feed this to an adult). really the orijen kibble is probably towards the top of my price range right now, can get it for 70$ a bag from chewy.com, and that bag should last around a month for an adult...i was going to feed it until i read from dogfoodadvisor.com people that it was too high in calcium and/or that they did not respond divulging it's calcium levels. but i still might if i find out their concern is unjustified as i agree with you on the company and it's quality, it's imo the best, and maybe better then i eat myself lol..
I'm very much a try it and see how it works feeder. So while I often feed Taste of the Wild (not too expensive, and easily available even at my small local grocery store), I will try other grain frees too, if I see something that looks good. I have four dogs, so don't feed the top of the line stuff because I simply can't afford it, and since kibble is not what I feed all the time, it doesn't seem that important to me. I have fed Evo in the past, and when I first got the pup, I fed her solid gold (not a grain free).
I also tend to judge amounts to feed by the way the dog looks, and don't measure much. Right now, I think my puppy is getting roughly 4 cups of kibble of day, less if her evening meal has more raw food.
Sorry I'm not more help, but I don't really measure this stuff out (I don't follow recipes much when cooking either! ha!)
@kimi_forever I am pro kibble only because I haven't tried raw food only because I'm still on edge with it. I would suggest buying small bags of the kibble that's interest you and try your dogs on it, and to switch it up every two weeks. This way your dog will not get tired and your pups will have a healthy variety. All feeding/ raw and kibble- lack one thing or another so just supplement.
Currently I feed (in recommended order) 1) dr Tim's 2) wellness 3) natures domain (cheapest, costco) 4) blue buffalo wilderness
All are grain free. Shiba has allergies.
And not to discredit anyone on the forum. But The real food experts are the Scientist who have tested the formula and nutrient values, as well as quality (hopefully). They have at a min 4years in chem bio or some science and nutrition background. That being said follow the nutrition guides on the bags based on your dogs weight and age.. It will help avoid over nutrition, and obesity.
I have seen too many overweight dogs who eat raw, which is why I always question raw diets and haven't done the switch. I have also seen a dog on raw who looked normal. Nothing fancy etc. Just like a normal dog. No glittering coat like some who feed raw would have you believe.
That being said, you DO NOT have to feed the top shelf kibble or even kibble with out grains. Like most will agree most dogs have been soo domesticated- that all-protein diets actually hurt their immune system. You'll find a dog with very soft/loose stools etc. Dogs have been living 10+ years on purina and other low brands before blue and etc have come about.
Get what fits your dogs tummy/poo( look at poo color and consistancy and your wallet.
Also not no matter what people say to you about protein being the most important thing in food. THAT IS NOT TRUE. Ask your vet or any medical expert on puppy growth , puppies need FAT more than anything else when growing.
@shikoku I'm not an expert on feeding whatsover, but would like to merely point out that it's probably not the raw food that's making the dogs fat - it's all about caloric intake and exercise. Those fat dogs would probably be fat on kibble.
If we spoke about this to in August, I would have told you that a raw diet was insane and that i'd never feed raw! Then Saigo started having bad allergies and would bite all the fur off of his legs. We tried bathing, meds, changing proteins, etc...nothing worked. A friend of mine said try raw. Right away, Allergies gone, stinky breath gone, stinky poo/pee's gone, stinky farts gone, energy level way up, clean teeth and he now has the most shiny beautiful fur. I've also never seen him so enthusiatic about eating his food.
Anyway, i'm not here to preach a raw diet because what you do with your pet is none of my concern. All I want to say is give it chance; i'm glad I did because I'll never go back to kibble.
I feed both. Sachi got a little fat on kibble because it's so high value with both protein and fat, we are reducing portions to slim her down but if you're going for an all stages kibble that I think has what it needs to promote growth I LOVE annamet aqualuk though all of the versions are good
@shikoku I'm not an expert on feeding whatsover, but would like to merely point out that it's probably not the raw food that's making the dogs fat - it's all about caloric intake and exercise. Those fat dogs would probably be fat on kibble.
If we spoke about this to in August, I would have told you that a raw diet was insane and that i'd never feed raw! Then Saigo started having bad allergies and would bite all the fur off of his legs. We tried bathing, meds, changing proteins, etc...nothing worked. A friend of mine said try raw. Right away, Allergies gone, stinky breath gone, stinky poo/pee's gone, stinky farts gone, energy level way up, clean teeth and he now has the most shiny beautiful fur. I've also never seen him so enthusiatic about eating his food.
Anyway, i'm not here to preach a raw diet because what you do with your pet is none of my concern. All I want to say is give it chance; i'm glad I did because I'll never go back to kibble.
I agree with you on diets but I don't have those probs with my pups well funky breath yea when they go to blue. Also I thank u for all your insight on raw. I will really consider it, but I feel like I need to master portions etc. 1st. I have a friend with the dc shiba group who makes all his dogs raw and ill get some from him. But with raw, should that be fed every day? I was thinking it's done every other day ...
Yeah, they don't get fat on raw unless they are fed too much. I've seen way less healthy dogs that are kibble fed than raw fed (though that is almost always reflective of the choice of kibble--bad quality = bad health, bad coats, bad smell, etc).
It's usually easier to adjust a raw diet and see results quicker in terms of weight loss, weight gain, though I'm not sure why that is. And raw fed dogs, at least those who eat bone too, do not have soft stool. In fact, they tend to go much less, have firm, dry poop that is easy to pick up and tends to disengrate too. It's MUCH easier to clean up after a raw fed dog. But again, people should make their own decisions; I'm just not much interested in having to justify the way I feed, which has worked very well for all my dogs for 15+ years.
And of course protein isn't the only issue, but I was referring to concerns about high protein levels in large breed puppies.
...And raw fed dogs, at least those who eat bone too, do not have soft stool. In fact, they tend to go much less, have firm, dry poop that is easy to pick up and tends to disengrate too. It's MUCH easier to clean up after a raw fed dog.
But again, people should make their own decisions; I'm just not much interested in having to justify the way I feed, which has worked very well for all my dogs for 15+ years.
Wow yea that is reason enough for me to switch! I had no idea there were softer stools. I'm def gonna look into switching just to try it out.
But whoa! It seems as though I came across wrong again. Let me reaffirm my views- I just wanted insight on why people feed raw. Also telling the guy that he should focus on getting his pup fat vs protein because it is more important in pups than protein. Not sure what made you retort like that but you have been on this board long enough to give helpful criticism w/o exasperation. We are new here so forgive my error.
@zandrame - thanks a lot I will start that next week. I see you recommend Orijen so ill start there... Don't want to get off this forums topic so @shibamiss and @zandrame pm me if more to say guys
@shikoku LOL !! My hubby wasn't sold on raw either....until he saw how FIRM Saigo's poo's were. "No smearing" as he tells everyone, "it's a clean pickup".
I agree with the bone. Chicken necks and anything with bone is great for cleaning teeth and firming stools.
too much headache. I'm just feeding Taste of wild and I'm ok with it. protein level etc ! i'm not really into those. I think good amount of food with decent quality and good amount of excersie will take care of all the problem. Raw is best but it can be worst if you don't do it right. I wish I have expert person right next to my door makes me raw food for my dogs!
Comments
I haven't had a "puppy" pup since Juneau and Sasha were puppies 8 years ago. They were fed Pedigree (I call it Pedicrap) for 5 years of their life before we knew better about canine nutrition.
I got Conker at 4 months. He was on Science Diet when I got him (yuck!) and I tried a few high-quality kibbles before switching to raw foods. So, he was still growing but wasn't fed real foods for a good portion of that time. He does best on wholefoods, but he has digestive problems so it's tough to feed him anything consistently.
I got Katana at 5 months and he ate Taste of the Wild (I think?) as a kibble. Not sure if Shigeru fed him anything else. He was switched to primarily raw foods and has done well on it. He is very muscular but I attribute that more to being intact and his breed than what he eats.
Right now my dogs are getting kibble but I mix in an egg every day and other things like beef heart and liver, and they get a boney thing at least once a week. My dogs do best on high-protein foods, so no matter what I am feeding they always get a lot of that. I've tried feeding them lower protein (25%) kibbles before and they lose muscle mass, skin gets flaky, coats dull, and they stink.
So, I can't really compare how a pup fed kibble grows compared to one fed wholefoods. Some people say that a pup fed fresh foods will be more muscular than one fed kibble, but I think that depends more on what's in the kibble (and raw food), the dog's genetics, and how much exercise it gets, as opposed to only raw vs kibble.
We do a partial raw partial kibble diet, following the general guidelines of muscle, organ, and bone proportions used for prey model raw. We're pretty easy going though and give them non-meat items like veggies and dairy (mostly cheese, yogurt, eggs, and frozen peas or roasted sweet potatoes). For snacks we purchase things that are grain free (honest kitchen, primal, vital essentials all make good snacks) or things like niboshi or nori with no additives. I'll feed my pups things like the bonito I use to make dashi too. Even if we switched to all raw though, I personally don't see an issue having some vegetables or random snacks.
So I have been feeding kibble (all stages, not puppy food), to the pups, and I switch them to raw when they get adult teeth and seem to be able to handle it better. And they love it, too. Right now I'm feeding my 5 month old Akita a mix of grain free kibble and raw meals. Since she still gets a morning meal (I feed my adult dogs only once a day), it's easier for me to feed her kibble in the morning and raw at night.
I learned how to feed raw years ago, about 15 years ago or more, when there wasn't much info. on it. I still tend to follow Dr. Billinhurst's BARF diet, though he (and I!) have changed the amount of bone in the diet. I don't find the diet very difficult, honestly, and have not had to worry about the exact amount of nutrients, etc, and my dogs seem to do well on it. They mostly get raw chicken with bones, but they also get coconut or fish oil, and occasional organ meat. They get plenty of table scraps in their food, so they get more variety than just the chicken. I just buy chicken from the grocery store (mostly we feed leg quarters), too, but having a freezer helps a lot because we can buy a lot when it is on sale. I also buy whatever I see that is "reduced for quick sale" at the grocery store.
That's it!
http://frommfamily.com/products/gold/dog/dry/large-breed-puppy-gold
which says if a puppy is between "x" and "y" weeks and weighs "z" feed this amount...just been thinking about how to figure out how much to offer a growing pup from an AllLifeStages food with more adult guidelines listed...
I also tend to judge amounts to feed by the way the dog looks, and don't measure much. Right now, I think my puppy is getting roughly 4 cups of kibble of day, less if her evening meal has more raw food.
Sorry I'm not more help, but I don't really measure this stuff out (I don't follow recipes much when cooking either! ha!)
Currently I feed (in recommended order)
1) dr Tim's
2) wellness
3) natures domain (cheapest, costco)
4) blue buffalo wilderness
All are grain free. Shiba has allergies.
And not to discredit anyone on the forum. But The real food experts are the Scientist who have tested the formula and nutrient values, as well as quality (hopefully). They have at a min 4years in chem bio or some science and nutrition background. That being said follow the nutrition guides on the bags based on your dogs weight and age.. It will help avoid over nutrition, and obesity.
I have seen too many overweight dogs who eat raw, which is why I always question raw diets and haven't done the switch. I have also seen a dog on raw who looked normal. Nothing fancy etc. Just like a normal dog. No glittering coat like some who feed raw would have you believe.
That being said, you DO NOT have to feed the top shelf kibble or even kibble with out grains. Like most will agree most dogs have been soo domesticated- that all-protein diets actually hurt their immune system. You'll find a dog with very soft/loose stools etc. Dogs have been living 10+ years on purina and other low brands before blue and etc have come about.
Get what fits your dogs tummy/poo( look at poo color and consistancy and your wallet.
If we spoke about this to in August, I would have told you that a raw diet was insane and that i'd never feed raw! Then Saigo started having bad allergies and would bite all the fur off of his legs. We tried bathing, meds, changing proteins, etc...nothing worked. A friend of mine said try raw. Right away, Allergies gone, stinky breath gone, stinky poo/pee's gone, stinky farts gone, energy level way up, clean teeth and he now has the most shiny beautiful fur. I've also never seen him so enthusiatic about eating his food.
Anyway, i'm not here to preach a raw diet because what you do with your pet is none of my concern. All I want to say is give it chance; i'm glad I did because I'll never go back to kibble.
I agree with you on diets but I don't have those probs with my pups well funky breath yea when they go to blue. Also I thank u for all your insight on raw. I will really consider it, but I feel like I need to master portions etc. 1st. I have a friend with the dc shiba group who makes all his dogs raw and ill get some from him. But with raw, should that be fed every day? I was thinking it's done every other day ...
It's usually easier to adjust a raw diet and see results quicker in terms of weight loss, weight gain, though I'm not sure why that is. And raw fed dogs, at least those who eat bone too, do not have soft stool. In fact, they tend to go much less, have firm, dry poop that is easy to pick up and tends to disengrate too. It's MUCH easier to clean up after a raw fed dog. But again, people should make their own decisions; I'm just not much interested in having to justify the way I feed, which has worked very well for all my dogs for 15+ years.
And of course protein isn't the only issue, but I was referring to concerns about high protein levels in large breed puppies.
Dog food advisor has a good analysis of many brands.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/raw/
You can feed raw every meal, but it seems that most people do kibble in the morning and raw at night.
But whoa! It seems as though I came across wrong again. Let me reaffirm my views- I just wanted insight on why people feed raw. Also telling the guy that he should focus on getting his pup fat vs protein because it is more important in pups than protein. Not sure what made you retort like that but you have been on this board long enough to give helpful criticism w/o exasperation. We are new here so forgive my error.
I agree with the bone. Chicken necks and anything with bone is great for cleaning teeth and firming stools.