Kiyoshi is turning into a very handsome little man! He does look like he's grown to adult sizes - how old is he? I'm really curious about Shikoku puppy growth. They appear to grow like a smaller breed (with the majority of the growth between 7-9 months?), but others seem to grow a little more gradually...
@Sunyata - I was wondering that as well. I'm not inherently against prong or chains, but they have been a source of frustration in many primitive breeds I have experienced. I know both my Malamute and my Shikoku would be 100x more reactive if I put them in anything that caused more discomfort or tension.
They seem a little heavy-duty for a (I suppose, subjectively) small dog, too. A prong is never the first thing I told my clients, but I certainly wouldn't recommend one for a small or medium dog. I had one client with a Labrador who was dead set on getting a prong or choke, though, and it would have been a losing battle to explain the negatives and good alternatives... so I just had to teach them how to use it properly. I knew they were going to go out and get one anyway, so I just had to make sure they were as educated as they could be about what it did, what alternatives there were, and how to use it.
@Dragonfly - What made you go for it? Did the trainer recommend it? Have you tried other training tools? If so, what's your experience been with other tools?
I want to be clear - I'm not judging! I'm genuinely interested in your experiences with using it as a training tool.
Aww. I'll probably get another Shikoku. Now that I've seen and experienced TK, I really love the breed (despite the "issues" TK came to me with). It's fun to see them grow up. I haven't had an actual puppy since my Malamute was young.
I think people should use the training tools that work for them and I'm glad to hear your experiences. I think it looks like you're doing a good job with him. I was just curious!
I used a headcollar on London (Malamute) when he was young to try and curb pulling on the lead. He hated it, but I worked with treats and got him used to wearing it. I ended up discarding it because it was increasing his tension and reactivity when he became dog-reactive. In order to phase it out and keep the results I had with the headcollar (no pulling), I'd put the headcollar on for the beginning of the walk and about halfway through, I'd keep it on, but clip the lead to his collar. He associated the headcollar with our training, so I tried to get him to associate the flat collar with the same. If he was too rowdy, I'd latch the leash back to the headcollar and he calmed down again.
Might work for Kiyoshi if you want/when you're ready. He probably doesn't understand that the flat collar also means that he has to behave as he does on the prong yet. Dogs can associate different equipment with certain expectations.
They grow up so fast. It's really interesting to see all the stuff you are doing with him. Looks like he's put on some weight. I'm looking forward to seeing how he looks this winter when in full coat.
@Kyoshi: Thanks for your posts as he progresses and what you have been doing....Have been thinking about your most recent thread....
Honestly it sounds like Kyoshi is starting to exhibit what hunters call “collar wise”. Sometimes dogs shut down (worst cases) or they can get real rambunctious when on specific tools that have been over used, the dog finds annoying, or simply nagging in the physical sense, the collar is then simply ignored as the dog continues to seek reinforcers out in the field.
There are different levels and degrees of “collar wise” and it does not take much to instill it on fast sensitive dogs, so it’s good that you are working with a trainer on this before it becomes habituation with all collars. It takes some experimenting and also consideration of his age too. At this point he is beginning the height of exploratory. He probably will get his sensible brain a little later, in my estimation you are fighting a development stage to, so no point burning your bridges with all collar options. It is smart of you to drop what is not working.
I think you mentioned a gentle leader or was it front clip?….Almost any high drive tenacious hunting breed HATES the the GL and often it is an exercise in futility to get decent acclimation. As you have experienced, when a dog spends the majority of time trying to remove it and getting facial hairs worn off in the process it is counter productive and time to move on. Use of GL can be just as detrimental in the long run as any other item used improperly and/or without consideration of the dog.
About the prong collar. You are not alone on this one and many owners of hunting dogs (lots of short hairs i.e. Pointers, Vizlas etc etc) have had to have back up with prong since those dogs are so into nose drive they will dislocate a human shoulder without management when on lead.
Unfortunately a dog with high drive and not really food motivated, redirection back becomes much tougher too. Once into nose, human requests and interaction often becomes white noise until the dog learns to multitask and reciprocate attention. (Sometimes depending on the dog attention is not going to be a full face stare so be prepared for that if it occurs.)
So much of behavior and training is habituation and association, building certain expectations over time via your interactions and use of appropriate equipment geared to the specific dog.
You mention that Koyshi has a whole different attitude when the prong is on. If you intend to track etc I would start to transfer the behavior association with prong to harness. In many events you will not be able to use prong so switch out will be necessary. (More importantly in the long run the prong is just a tool and once the behaviors are in order it should not be needed again once the dog matures.)
Therefore, for future progression without prong you will need to transfer the behaviors he has developed. Like you have started, begin by loosening up the prong and just have it around his neck and have two leashes on to start (one on prong and one on harness). As he goes into to pay attention mode, gently remove the prong leash and just work with harness attached to second leash (the point being not really letting him know that you are removing leash on prong, thus avoid snapping of spring clip).
At first remove only when he is calmly walking etc. and build up duration of course with the goal of finally working just on harness in the future. It can take a couple of weeks up to six months. In the beginning you will only get a tiny bit of transfer of behavior before you have to clip back up, but over time it will become longer and longer as he behaves without prong.
Since you seem to have a flexible trainer that can work with you, if she has not mentioned it, I would consider using his drive as a point of reward with novel articles say wing clips or tails (coon or squirrel or fleece on a line to chase) anything you can trade to keep it novel, if you find he will drive to you with them. Use that for redirection or use redirection to simply sniff and run about on long long leash line. Some of this you may have to start inside and work outside later. It may take some building up of value in those items over time as well. You know your dog best.
In any case, I find working my Nihon nose savvy hunting breeds to be somewhat different when trying to reach their independent single minded goals. For me personally I often work on a really long line of 15 ft which gives more room to allow for a give-and -take, to reel in as needed (when the line is loose). I allow sniffing, stalking etc. as reward i.e. let out line to investigate if there is a check in. No amount of food in the world surpasses the desire for sniff and explore as a reward to track, at least for two of my dogs. Making that redirection their mental choice by taking it in training slices is important, first for just looking and then for coming back to the me and me releasing to object/track/scent they desire. Sometimes you have to mix it up or make it really active by moving in another direction or seeking another more desirable item, place, or activity. It’s more about steering in the long run than trying to fully control innate hardwired behavior.
@Dragonfly how does Kiyoshi react to other dogs on leash? I ask because I also use the prong in a similar manner with my 1 y/o male. It's helped us make our walks teachable instead of being totally chaotic. He's making progress, but we're still finding his dog reactivity on leash to be a big challenge. Is Kiyoshi the same way? Any tips?
We currently use the watch command, u-turn, and the 'look at the dog for a treat' game, depending on the situation.
Yeah that is the way with training not every trainer will tell you….sometimes it’s two steps forward and one back but the behavior you want grows a bit over time, each time, with patience.
Mostly success is about giving it time over the long haul and a lot of practice nicely helped along with the right leash, and harness in our case.
Understandably I would have concern with the shoulders also and it seems most harnesses are made with much wider chested dogs in mind…. straps hitting in the wrong locations hindering the biceps on some of the Nihons depending on the dogs build.
We actually have had good luck with the Freedom No Pull Harness by Wiggles, Wags and Whiskers for our Kai. I know some pet stores have this brand harness in stock to try on before purchase if one is curious.
What we found is it does fit the longer leaner active body type that can snake in and around. One can modify the leash points to work from behind/top and with clip option on front if you choose to go combo, which takes some strain off front pullers who dig in with their front. It’s also soft and is offered in different widths. We actually did not, however, use the front clip but started with two leashes one clipped on top and the other to a collar. The leash on the back clip slightly shorter and the collar one a 1/2" longer.
The product does not eliminate pulling altogether but it does provide options when working on a long line without need of a collar (outside of tags) once you have some of the kinks worked out in harness acclimation and some basic training in place.
It’s different for everyone though, so again you have to look at the tools and where the process is getting you with the least amount of damage to your back and to the dog.
The last thing one ones is late age onset esophagus problems as a senior dog if the pulling on collar (regular or prong) is not addressed early in life.
Good luck & have fun….will check back later on updates to see how Kyoshi is doing : ) Snf
Comments
Not to open a can of worms... But is there any particular reason why he has on a prong collar?
@Sunyata - I was wondering that as well. I'm not inherently against prong or chains, but they have been a source of frustration in many primitive breeds I have experienced. I know both my Malamute and my Shikoku would be 100x more reactive if I put them in anything that caused more discomfort or tension.
They seem a little heavy-duty for a (I suppose, subjectively) small dog, too. A prong is never the first thing I told my clients, but I certainly wouldn't recommend one for a small or medium dog. I had one client with a Labrador who was dead set on getting a prong or choke, though, and it would have been a losing battle to explain the negatives and good alternatives... so I just had to teach them how to use it properly. I knew they were going to go out and get one anyway, so I just had to make sure they were as educated as they could be about what it did, what alternatives there were, and how to use it.
@Dragonfly - What made you go for it? Did the trainer recommend it? Have you tried other training tools? If so, what's your experience been with other tools?
I want to be clear - I'm not judging! I'm genuinely interested in your experiences with using it as a training tool.
I think people should use the training tools that work for them and I'm glad to hear your experiences.
I used a headcollar on London (Malamute) when he was young to try and curb pulling on the lead. He hated it, but I worked with treats and got him used to wearing it. I ended up discarding it because it was increasing his tension and reactivity when he became dog-reactive. In order to phase it out and keep the results I had with the headcollar (no pulling), I'd put the headcollar on for the beginning of the walk and about halfway through, I'd keep it on, but clip the lead to his collar. He associated the headcollar with our training, so I tried to get him to associate the flat collar with the same. If he was too rowdy, I'd latch the leash back to the headcollar and he calmed down again.
Might work for Kiyoshi if you want/when you're ready. He probably doesn't understand that the flat collar also means that he has to behave as he does on the prong yet. Dogs can associate different equipment with certain expectations.
I love taking Saya to lowes when getting things nice that the stores I been to allow dogs. nice socializing time and distractions to work with.
Honestly it sounds like Kyoshi is starting to exhibit what hunters call “collar wise”. Sometimes dogs shut down (worst cases) or they can get real rambunctious when on specific tools that have been over used, the dog finds annoying, or simply nagging in the physical sense, the collar is then simply ignored as the dog continues to seek reinforcers out in the field.
There are different levels and degrees of “collar wise” and it does not take much to instill it on fast sensitive dogs, so it’s good that you are working with a trainer on this before it becomes habituation with all collars. It takes some experimenting and also consideration of his age too. At this point he is beginning the height of exploratory. He probably will get his sensible brain a little later, in my estimation you are fighting a development stage to, so no point burning your bridges with all collar options. It is smart of you to drop what is not working.
I think you mentioned a gentle leader or was it front clip?….Almost any high drive tenacious hunting breed HATES the the GL and often it is an exercise in futility to get decent acclimation. As you have experienced, when a dog spends the majority of time trying to remove it and getting facial hairs worn off in the process it is counter productive and time to move on. Use of GL can be just as detrimental in the long run as any other item used improperly and/or without consideration of the dog.
About the prong collar. You are not alone on this one and many owners of hunting dogs (lots of short hairs i.e. Pointers, Vizlas etc etc) have had to have back up with prong since those dogs are so into nose drive they will dislocate a human shoulder without management when on lead.
Unfortunately a dog with high drive and not really food motivated, redirection back becomes much tougher too. Once into nose, human requests and interaction often becomes white noise until the dog learns to multitask and reciprocate attention. (Sometimes depending on the dog attention is not going to be a full face stare so be prepared for that if it occurs.)
So much of behavior and training is habituation and association, building certain expectations over time via your interactions and use of appropriate equipment geared to the specific dog.
You mention that Koyshi has a whole different attitude when the prong is on. If you intend to track etc I would start to transfer the behavior association with prong to harness. In many events you will not be able to use prong so switch out will be necessary. (More importantly in the long run the prong is just a tool and once the behaviors are in order it should not be needed again once the dog matures.)
Therefore, for future progression without prong you will need to transfer the behaviors he has developed. Like you have started, begin by loosening up the prong and just have it around his neck and have two leashes on to start (one on prong and one on harness). As he goes into to pay attention mode, gently remove the prong leash and just work with harness attached to second leash (the point being not really letting him know that you are removing leash on prong, thus avoid snapping of spring clip).
At first remove only when he is calmly walking etc. and build up duration of course with the goal of finally working just on harness in the future. It can take a couple of weeks up to six months. In the beginning you will only get a tiny bit of transfer of behavior before you have to clip back up, but over time it will become longer and longer as he behaves without prong.
Since you seem to have a flexible trainer that can work with you, if she has not mentioned it, I would consider using his drive as a point of reward with novel articles say wing clips or tails (coon or squirrel or fleece on a line to chase) anything you can trade to keep it novel, if you find he will drive to you with them. Use that for redirection or use redirection to simply sniff and run about on long long leash line. Some of this you may have to start inside and work outside later. It may take some building up of value in those items over time as well. You know your dog best.
In any case, I find working my Nihon nose savvy hunting breeds to be somewhat different when trying to reach their independent single minded goals. For me personally I often work on a really long line of 15 ft which gives more room to allow for a give-and -take, to reel in as needed (when the line is loose). I allow sniffing, stalking etc. as reward i.e. let out line to investigate if there is a check in. No amount of food in the world surpasses the desire for sniff and explore as a reward to track, at least for two of my dogs. Making that redirection their mental choice by taking it in training slices is important, first for just looking and then for coming back to the me and me releasing to object/track/scent they desire. Sometimes you have to mix it up or make it really active by moving in another direction or seeking another more desirable item, place, or activity. It’s more about steering in the long run than trying to fully control innate hardwired behavior.
Snf
We currently use the watch command, u-turn, and the 'look at the dog for a treat' game, depending on the situation.
Yeah that is the way with training not every trainer will tell you….sometimes it’s two steps forward and one back but the behavior you want grows a bit over time, each time, with patience.
Mostly success is about giving it time over the long haul and a lot of practice nicely helped along with the right leash, and harness in our case.
Understandably I would have concern with the shoulders also and it seems most harnesses are made with much wider chested dogs in mind…. straps hitting in the wrong locations hindering the biceps on some of the Nihons depending on the dogs build.
We actually have had good luck with the Freedom No Pull Harness by Wiggles, Wags and Whiskers for our Kai. I know some pet stores have this brand harness in stock to try on before purchase if one is curious.
What we found is it does fit the longer leaner active body type that can snake in and around. One can modify the leash points to work from behind/top and with clip option on front if you choose to go combo, which takes some strain off front pullers who dig in with their front. It’s also soft and is offered in different widths. We actually did not, however, use the front clip but started with two leashes one clipped on top and the other to a collar. The leash on the back clip slightly shorter and the collar one a 1/2" longer.
The product does not eliminate pulling altogether but it does provide options when working on a long line without need of a collar (outside of tags) once you have some of the kinks worked out in harness acclimation and some basic training in place.
It’s different for everyone though, so again you have to look at the tools and where the process is getting you with the least amount of damage to your back and to the dog.
The last thing one ones is late age onset esophagus problems as a senior dog if the pulling on collar (regular or prong) is not addressed early in life.
Good luck & have fun….will check back later on updates to see how Kyoshi is doing : )
Snf