Introducing Myself
Hi everyone.
I just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Jon, I live in Vermont,
USA. I'm a law school student and have been lurking on these forums
for about a year, but just decided on signing up! I am not an owner of
a Shikoku, but I want to be! Currently, my friend is a 10 year old
Russel Terrier named Zoe (pronounced Zoey) She is a wonderful dog, but
she is getting cranky in her old age, and like my past dog (a mini
schnauzer), I think it's great to introduce a new member to family when
you have an "elder". We got Zoe when Snuggles (my schnauzer) was 11
and they were best friends till he passed away.
So, as I said, I'm in law school. I live in the gorgeous green
mountains in Vermont, on a few hundred acres (I rent!). I'm an avid
hiker and outdoor photographer and want a companion in the hills. I
have read that Shikokus are natural mountain dogs.
My biggest question is, how do Shikokus do with being off leash in
the hills? I want a dog that I can hike with and with proper training,
will return to me when I call, so don't have to worry about him or her.
I currently hike everyday with my landlord's dog, Danny, a border
collie, and he is a wonderful companion in hikes.
I guess the next most important question is: how long is the current
wait? I know there are only two breeders in N.A., is it a loooooong
time on the waiting list?
I'm a bit late for class, so sorry if there are typos. Stop in and
say hello. I attached a link to my little old lady with our horse,
Alladin.
Comments
Hi Jon, welcome to the forum!
Zoe is very cute! I love that picture, all the snow... I love snow.
I own two Shikoku, they are great. I think a Shikoku makes a great hiking dog, especially if you give them a job, like carrying a pack - the love to work. Ahi has done many many hikes with us and she loves it. She seems to be a natural when it comes to finding her way around a trail and carrying a pack.
As for being off leash, I would not recommend having any Japanese Spitz off leash, they just are not very trustworthy off lead. Their prey drive is just to strong.
Having said that, I have noticed while at dog parks, that Ahi is MUCH better off lead than our Shiba and Akita are... but she is not what I would call trust worth off lead.
About the wait for a Shikoku - I have no idea... Someone else may be able to answer this one, or you can always contact the breeders and ask them.
Hi Jon, Welcome to the forum!
I wouldn't say its impossible to train any dog regardless of breed to return on call. It just depends on how independent/stubborn your dog is and how willing and consistant you will be in training. But it is a known fact not to trust any japanese spitz dogs off lead.
Welcome! VT is a beautiful state!
Well, I am going to disagree with Brad a bit on this, and it may be that we have 2 different Shikoku's each with their own personalities. That being said, I did specifically discuss the off lead issue with both breeders (I got my puppy from Peggy, am on the waiting list for another with Katja). Both said that Shikoku were much more loyal and obedient than Shibas and both had let their Shikoku dogs off lead. I was interested because I had Siberians before (which both breeders did also have and had quite a lot of experience with) and Siberians are notorious for not coming back when called. Both breeders said that Shikoku were much more loyal and obedient than Siberians (I also found this to be true).
I know that Peggy does hike with her Shikoku's off lead (if you search the forum, there are some photos of her dogs off lead). I also hike with my Shikoku off lead (but on my property - we have 100 acres - and I haven't yet taken him other places). He is 8 months now. However, before he ever got let off lead, I did a lot of obedience training in my yard and outside on a long leash on long walks in the field and I practiced a lot of recalls. I did find that as he is older, he does range a bit further afield early on (still within site) and isn't as fast on recall, but if I keep him on a flexie leash for the first 10 minutes of the walk and then let him off he stays very close and has perfect recalls. I cannot stress enough the importance of making sure that the dog is obedience trained and rewarded for coming back, because when you do have game jump out on the trail, you want them to come back when called. So far, my Shikoku has done very well and has always come back and is very obedient. I have found that both breeders discriptions of Shikoku were very accurate, at least for my dog.
But, as Brad said, they are hunting dogs and Spitz type, so you still have to be very aware that they will not always be as responsive as the Border Collie.
PS Edited to address you Siberian cmt which I just saw. I did take my Siberians on hiking walks in the moutains (VA, CO, etc) and often I did leave them off lead - but they were good only 95% of the time and 5% of the time they would not come on recall and I had to spend time tracking them down. This has never happened with my Shikoku. BTW, I have owned 4 Siberians over 25+ years and this is pretty typical for them. Plus many are absolute escape artists figuring out how to get out of a fenced yard - not true with my Shikoku (and the breeders also said that Shikoku's are not escape artists).
Probably so, I've never had a shikoku, so I don't have any experience there. I'll agree about those huskies being smart & independent. Gorky could be very sneaky when he wanted. The reason I wanted to go with a shiba was because I wanted a smart, independent dog that acted like a big dog but came in a small package - I got that. Jazz has done some off-leash in the area and comes quickly when called, but I've found she is an exception to the rule when it comes to shibas.
At the risk of sounding argumentative or discouraging, I feel the need to point out, what I would consider to be, hole in logic...
You live in a mountainous snowy area, would you purchase a Corvette to be you daily driver? Probably not, because a Corvette, without a doubt, is one of the worst cars you could purchase to perform the task of driving through slippery conditions, especially on an incline.
The same logic should be applied to buying a dog for a purpose, why would you buy a dog that is predisposed to have trouble doing a task you expect it to do? Especially when there are other dogs breeds that would fit that task perfectly.
We need to take into consideration what 100s of years of purposeful breeding has produced in the Shikoku-Ken... It was breed to hunt and hold at bay game, usually Boar. This means they where sent out in small groups to "flush out" game and then keep the game in one place, by barking at it, until the hunter could come and finish the job. They were not bred to, for example, retrieve game and bring it back to its master.
Above, in prior posts, the Shikoku's ability to come when called is compared to the Shiba Inu's ability to come when called, this is really setting the bar very low. You could probably train a goldfish to come when called better than a Shiba. Just keep that in mind when reading comparisons like that.
Yes, a Shikoku could be [and has been] trained to be realitivly obedient off leash, but if hiking with an off leash dog is your purpose [or goal] for getting a dog why would you consider a breed that is predisposed to fail, at least some of the time? In this case failure of your dog to come when called off leash during hiking in the mountains could mean death for your dog.
There are always exceptions to the rules but it seems kinda risky, and somewhat illogical, to me.
So, I just want you to consider what you are looking for in a dog before you get a Shikoku. I think a Shikoku would LOVE LOVE LOVE the mountains of VT, and it sounds like you are the right type of person for a Shikoku (outdoorsy), but just please reconsider hiking them off lead or reconsider the breed.
The last thing any of us want is one of these treasured dogs to end up hurt, or dead.
i have to agree, if Shikokus can be grouped closer with a Shibas
trainability than with a Husky, the reason our male was surrendered by
its original owner was because he would not come when called on the
beach where they lived and he wanted a dog that would frolic on the
beach without having to be held on a leash all the time.
I am thrilled with my Kitsune, but it was a lousy thing to do with a dog by his former owner.
to
give you a clearer picture of what a shikoku might be like,
reading The Misanthropic Shiba at
http://www.bravewolf.ca/shibainu.html account might help. They are
both Japanese-spitz type dogs with similar traits and 'reliability'. So
if you don't want to be screaming at the top of your lungs at a dog
that appears to not recognize its name while you are running faster
than you ever imagined through bushes and streams and hills and
fields..
Thats why Brad is going through great lengths
to fence in his back yard the most efficient way imaginable because you
just can't trust um. The mere sight of a rabbit and all that training seems to be forgotten!
From Brad - "Yes, a Shikoku could be [and has been] trained to be realitivly obedient off leash, but if hiking with an off leash dog is your purpose [or goal] for getting a dog why would you consider a breed that is predisposed to fail, at least some of the time? "
This is a very good quote by Brad. My comparison to my Shikoku is based on my experience with Siberians, so relatively speaking Shikoku are more obedient and biddable (in comparison to Siberians and Shiba) but, and this is a big but, they are not anywhere near as reliable as some breeds. I am comfortable letting my Shikoku off lead (in some areas) but not in others. I would NEVER feel comfortable walking them down a street off lead (but you see some other breeds of dog doing that just fine). I am not certain that I would feel comfortable walking them in an area where there were a lot of game either. So, if you want 100% reliability, a Shikoku wouldn't be for you, but if you want a Spitz breed that is beautiful and a bit more trainable that many "other" Spitz breeds, you might be happy with a Shikoku.
From tsukisune - "i have to agree, if Shikokus can be grouped closer with a Shibas trainability than with a Husky, "
But actually, I think that Shibas are Huskies are closer in trainability. The Shibas I have been around are very independent as were my 5 Siberians. My Shikoku is much easier to train than the Siberians and he seems to enjoy learning obedience (even to the point that I think he will be competive in open obedience classes). I edited my original post so that it is clear that (IMO) Shikoku are easier to train and more willing to be obedient than Siberians (or Shiba).
hmm...well it seems that there is a lot of hesitation to people with letting their dogs off the lead. Of course, just like people, dogs are all different, but it seems most of you agree, a Shikoku is not a optimal choice for hiking of a lead, and coming back to me always.
This excerpt from Wikipedia is what got me interested in the breed (in addition to my many visits to Japan)
"Shikoku dogs are tough and sufficiently agile to run through a
mountainous region. They are the ideal companion for active outdoor
people. They are very energetic and active outside but they are calm
and quiet indoors. The Shikoku is a very intelligent dog and a quick
learner. They are not as stubborn and independent as the other native
Japanese breeds, but still it is not a dog for every person."
What I'm looking for is a dog that is just that, an ideal companion for me in the woods. A dog that will sleep outside my tent in the back country for a week and I won't need to worry about him or her. Sadly, maybe I was wrong about the Shikoku being that dog. Of course, I'm sure there have been Shikokus in the past few thousand years that were very loyal to their Alphas and stays close at all times, but it seems most of you don't think the chances are good. I just don't know why anyone would consider a dog an ideal companion for active outdoor people if they always need to be on a leash. There isn't anything ideal about holding a leash while hiking
To be Honest, I dont' think any dog should be off lead if they're not in an enclosed area. There are just too many risks. What if while you were hiking, you came across a wild animal? I think any dog would put itself between you and the animal to protect you. What if that animal killed you dog because it was trying to protect you? To be a safe and responsible owner, i think dogs should always be on lead in public places. Is there any reason why you don't want to hike with a dog on lead?
"Shikoku dogs are tough and sufficiently agile to run through a mountainous region. They are the ideal companion for active outdoor people. They are very energetic and active outside but they are calm and quiet indoors. The Shikoku is a very intelligent dog and a quick learner. They are not as stubborn and independent as the other native Japanese breeds, but still it is not a dog for every person."
I agree with everything that it says here. And as I said, I do let my Shikoku off lead and go hiking (around my farm) with him. But I don't believe that they would be 100% reliable all the time. So, just like my Siberians, I have to always be aware that if I let them off lead, there is a possibility that they would run off after game. I think that the possibility is smaller than with Siberians (IMO), but it is still there.
If I were you, I would strongly suggest that you speak to Peggy and Katja. Both have a lot more experience with many different Shikoku's then each of us on the forum who only have 1 or 2. Like I said, I know Peggy does hike with hers (per our conversation and her photos). Talk with her and Katja - they can help you make the decision better. Plus they both know Siberians and Shibas well too.
Romi - just like everyone else, there are differing opinions. I do like hiking better with a dog loose, but I am also not willing for them to run off. I am sure that the OP is the same. If I lived in a city, I would never let them off lead.
On a side note, if you look at Katja's web site, she obviously lets dogs off lead as she has a story on it about a Shiba mother and her son who got lost (and the mother tracked down the son) on a hike it the woods in BC. I think it is under "tracking ability". Here's the link http://www.akashima.bc.ca/tracking.htm
We usually attach our dogs to our pack or waist with a long lead. They usually walk in front of us, and the long lead give my wife and I both something to hold on to... yet they are still several feet away from us in front.
I second what Romi wrote too... I think it is safer to keep your dog on lead, no matter what breed.
Having said that, out of the Japanese breeds, I think a Kai-Ken would be less likely to run off and more willing to come... but again, that is relative. Kai-Ken are very attached and loyal to their master.
As for other breeds, non-Japanese, have you considered a karelian Bear Dog? they are described as the perfect woodsman's dog. There is always the GSD or Lab too, they would be good hiking companions.
if i didn't own and foster shibas, i would probably look into Tamaskans, who are said to respond well off leash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamaskan_dog