Number of black 'hairs' on white dog increasing as he ages (UPDATE 2/28/2015)

WhoBitMe

I mentioned a while ago in Meitou's thread that I had found a black fur on one of Meitou's sides. He did not originally have this black fur as a puppy and super young dog and once I noticed this black fur it was the only one for a long time, but a month or so ago I found a different one in the middle of his back. And a week or two (or three?) ago I found two more on his shoulder right blade. The black fur is increasing increasing! Has anyone ever heard of this happening on other white dogs of other breeds? Or is Meitou just weird? (Well, that's a given, I suppose...)

I'm just curious about the genetics behind this because it find it amusing that over time he is getting more of them. Granted, it isn't very much more, but it is more. The most obvious one is the one on his back as it stands out the most. Also, these seem to be black only on the top half. Closer to the skin they are still white.

I am strange enough I tried to get pictures of them. Excuse the fingers, but I was trying to point the black strands out.

Shoulder blade fur #1



Shoulder blade fur #2



On the back:



Shoulder blade



On the back. I'm holding on to most of the black to try and show that it turns white.



On his side.

PoetikDragon

Curious - can you pluck one and put really bright light behind it, magnify it in any way? I'm wondering if its truly black (eumelanin) or dark red (pheomelanin). A dog that is white from e/e shouldn't be able to produce eumelanin in the coat at all.

Losech

Ooh, very interesting. I'd like to know if it's true black or dark red as well.

WhoBitMe

@PoetikDragon I'll see if I can pluck one in the next couple of days. If it is a dark red will shining a light on it make it look more red versus still looking black if it is black?

@Losech Yeah, it is very interesting. I'm curious, too. Since they look black to me it never occurred to me that they might be dark red, so now I want to know.

zandrame

Yay science!! Waiting for result!

ayk

Might be a single cell mutation that lost e/e?

Kira_Inu

Kira, although not a Hokkaido - has one single black hair on her side. She does have a lot of red since she is a cream Shiba, but that is the only black hair that I've found.
I wondered about it too.

Crispy

I'd go with @ayk - probably an "error" somewhere. My friend (who has an ee/yellow Labrador) finds black hairs on her dog all the time, so we've talked about this a lot. That's always been my guess.

ayk

What's cool is that Meitou might be a black/tan under that white color.

Calia

Since Pinto does occur in Shibas, is it possible for a cream shiba to actually be an extreme pinto/piebald? One of my huskies is a piebald and it's believed that his mom is a piebald even though she is pure white, and there have been other white huskies had tests show that they were piebald instead of e/e white.

Crispy

A pinto dog shouldn't be cream, though, if I understand correctly. Pinto/spotting actually strips the coat of the ability to have color vs. ee red/cream, which prevents black hair growth.

But it's possible for a white dog to be pinto/extreme piebald. I think this is the case with Pyrenees and Dogo Argentino?

Losech

e/e dogs can be pinto. The white spotting gene has a huge variance in coverage. Flint is pinto but has color since his isn't extreme white spotting. If he were e/e he'd still be pinto, it just wouldn't be noticeable since e/e Laika also tend to be washed out cream/white like Nihon Ken rather than "yellow" or "red" like retriever breeds.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogspots.html

Crispy

I meant that the pinto markings shouldn't be cream, @Losech. Pinto is a pattern that goes over any coat color, though.

The reason why I mentioned it is because Metou has obvious ruddy/cream/"yellow" color along his back and in the pictures - if he were an extreme piebald/pinto, you would expect him to have a more broken coat color (white vs. the ruddy ee cream).

Kurogane, Shirogane, and Fionna all have/had spotting I observed on top of their ee cream/white - they just had minimal spotting, not extreme piebald/pinto.

Fionna's white tail tip is very obvious now that her adult coat has grown in fairly dark. Shiro had a small blaze that split his "yellow" face as a young pup, but that seems to have faded, and Kurogane had a bit of a stripe on his stomach from the white spotting vs. ee red/cream/white (whatever one wants to call it).

ayk

Here's an example of a cream pup that is also pinto.

Crispy

Here's a Sibe with what looks like cream + liver + pinto/extreme white markings, too.

WhoBitMe

I plucked one of Meitou's hairs. As far as shining a bright light on it, would a bright flashlight work? Because that might be the best I've got. I've tried it already and I'm not even sure what I'm looking at or for. Maybe I need a magnifying glass?

I did take a few (really crappy) photos so maybe I'll try and upload those.

I always just assumed Meitou was red under his white. I know on his pedigree his paternal grandfather is red, and that dog's parents are both listed as red. All the other dogs that show up on his pedigree, including both parents, are white. Not sure if that means anything.

Edit:

This discussion got my wondering about coat color tests like what is offered by Animal Genetics: http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/Canine-color/Color_Index.asp

Because now I'm a little curious about it all, even if he does end up just being red. Would it be worth it?

ayk

If you plan on breeding him to Genko (black/tan female), then it'll answer your question pretty fast. The litter would have black/tans or whites if he is a black/tan under his white.

Calia

I wasn't really talking about a pup with e/e and pinto, I was more referring to a dog that is just Pinto but with such extreme patterning that they look white.

The husky image Crispy posted above has a normal level of piebald patterning, with at least 25% or more in coloring. Titan, on the other hand, has less than 10% coloring with 2 siblings having only a spot on one eye and the other two having about 15% color.

Titan:


Titan's mom (with puppy Titan):



The reason I bring this up is because as Titan grew, he gained small black spots and hairs through out his body. Apparently that can happen with some, but not all, piebalds. This kind of came to mind with the discussion of black hairs on a white coat.

ayk

Sounds like Titan inherited ticking which shows up on the white spots of piebald.

ayk

@WhoBitMe - If you end up testing for more than one loci, then you might want to check out UC Davis' prices.

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog.php

BradA1878

So then, does that mean Che, my Dogo, is extreme piebald with ticking on the white part of the piebald pattern?

ayk

Yep, Che is that.

Crispy

I thought of Che, too.

BradA1878

Neat! I think he gets a new spot every day.

PoetikDragon

My white AA is piebald while my white JAs are recessive red. Mosura, who also has two brindle genes, doesn't have a single black hair on her that I have ever found. Yet Batora, who I don't think carries brindle (haven't tested for sure), had one black hair on the back of his neck once. I plucked it and it never came back - so odd.

Calia

@ayk, this ticking found on Titan and Che, would this be similar genes that causes Dalmatians to have their spots?

ayk

I think so.

shibamistress

I guess Zora is also piebald, falling somewhere between Titan and the normal piebald that is 25% ? She has the black hood, and a small black patch on her back but is otherwise white. Enough black to not be an extreme piebald, perhaps, but still she is not in the normal pinto category either (she's not balanced enough in color pattern to be a decent show dog). She has ticking on her legs and a bit in other places, too, and as with some of the other dogs, she has gotten more ticking as she got older. Some of the ticking on her back is relatively new, and even the leg ticking wasn't there when she was a puppy.

PoetikDragon

Its my understanding that basically all white patterns - white trim, irish spotting, mantle, pinto, piebald, extreme white - are all caused by the piebald gene. A few years ago they thought there were multiple genes on the S locus that caused varying degrees of white, but now its just S (no white) and sp (piebald). There is incomplete dominance, meaning even a dog with a dominant S gene can still have some white caused by carrying a recessive sp gene. A dog with two sp genes will have significantly more white.

Calia

@shibamistress I think most of Zora's black face is caused by the same genes that give other AAs their black mask, and that if she didn't have that mask she probably would have a face pattern similar to Titan. I would consider her a high white like Titan but not extreme like Che.

Though it's interesting, there are some piebald huskies where they have normal piebald patterning, or are mostly white, but the color doesn't recede back on their faces.

TheWalrus

Baron's got a few black hairs that pop up every now and again as well.