I decided 4 months ago not to rehome Mars in another discussion on this forum. You could find that thread if you wish to discuss rehoming I would be happy to talk about it there or privately. Please don't bring that discussion to this thread.
This thread is about how to live with multiple male Akita. I have made it so others will know the challenges they face when they Google this subject.
I have more pictures and story's to share. I just have not had time to post. I want to show you my Kennels and how I now am managing the dogs.
To answer your question about the Muzzle. They are not Muzzled all day. Yesterday they spent about an hour in the Muzzle. But I did not have them together in a stressful way.
There are lots of details that I have not shared yet. After the last episode. I have decided that I need to take a more professional approach. I am gonna start following more professional rules when dealing with the dogs.
First of all they need to be seperated (obviously) when not supervised. They have spent 4 months together with out any problems.
Second. when they are together they will be Muzzled. They will each have a harness and a four foot lead to drag around. I will be making anchor points so I can separate them easier and safer.
Rule 3. Only two dogs together at a time.
Rule 4 have two people. That's me and my wife when the dogs are being trained.
I just woke up. But today I plan to upgrade the Kennels. They are not finished yet. I have two of them nearly done and about $2000 invested. With enough material to finish.
I have also made a few changes inside the house. I have four separate rooms.
Later I will share more details about the dynamics of the pack. Who gets along with who and why. and which behaviors I am trying to address.
@lindsayt, @sunyata - while I agree with your points, I think that the op here is using this thread as "education" and not looking for input. A quick reread of his rehoming thread is pretty enlightening.
@t_dog - I believe your original thread was shut down so the rehoming discussion can't really be continued. I take it from the fact that you introduced a new puppy and how close Eiji is in age to Mars, that you found an AKIHO breeder willing to sell you a young show quality puppy and that after much consideration you have decided to still keep Mars? Different breed, but check some of @shibamistress threads on the shiba forum. She has some great posts about the difficulty of living in a multi-dog household (she had two shibas, an AA, and a kai ken and I think it's currently a shiba, two AA, and a kai ken) and the importance of introduction, socialization, and management.
Just a point of clarification, because I saw your thread on proposed dog runs and your offhand comment about leaving an akita in the backyard. All four of these dogs are living and sleeping inside of your home right? They're not spending a significant portion of their day in an outdoor run are they?
I only use the run. I have been calling them Kennels. For when I sleep or both me and my wife are away. I have baby gates and doors and I rotate them from room to room, each one gets time in the living room. I lay on the floor and hug kiss and cuddle till he gets up and moves to a corner. Obviously tire of my attention. Then I will move another one in and shower him with attention. I have been busy all day today getting 6 gauge welded wire fence to upgrade the Kennels. This stuff is used for horses. So I have not got around to sharing more pictures and details. I do want and appreciate advise. I would just like to focus on keeping them all and teaching them to get along. But I also do want my experience with this documented so others who consider doing this can know what they are signing up for. I don't know it all and I there are a lot of people on here with multiple Akita. Eiji is not AKIHO. He is FCI and now UKC and soon AKC.. Maybe.. but many of his line are AKIHO. He went to a show in California and received a Best Male ribbon at 8 months old. I am from Iowa so it was quite the trip.
this is the gating system for the spare bedroom taken from the living room. To switch room the one in the bedroom goes in the bathroom and then the one in the living room goes to the bedroom. Then the one in the bathroom goes to the living room. Also around the corner to the right is my bedroom.
this is from the kitchen to the living room. To switch dogs one goes out the front door. Then the other gets moved to the living room and then we call the one in through the slider door. We have two yards fenced separately. One front and one back. The one in the kitchen has access to the back yard via dog door. The front is accessed from the slider door or the front door. So if we are gone for a long period. Two will go in each kennel one will go in the kitchen and Tachi (Shiba) gets the living room.
Also notice I have a two door system At each room. The wood gate swings and latches so I can put a dog in my bedroom. Instead of the spare room. So I can easily rotate dogs. I can also put them all in their beds then reset who goes where. What room they get when I sleep is based on who gets along best with who and who is stongest. So Tachi gets along with all of them(ironically) he shares a room with any one of them at anytime. But I feel most security with rooming him with Kenji who is astonishingly patient with his Shiba attitude. So Kenji and Mars get along better the Eiji and Mars. So Mars gets the room with short gates and is less likely that either Kenji or Mars will climb both gates. Mars still submits to Kenji. Then Eiji gets the Kitchen. Cuz there is a steel door between them. But I feel best when Eiji is in my bedroom door shut with the wood gate latched. Kenji in the livingroom. With two gates and a door between them. Mars in the Kitchen. Tachi in the bedroom with Eiji and us or in the spare room by himself. Or Tachi can stay in the living room with Kenji... Bet that was hard to follow. Lol I like Eiji in my bedroom with me cuz if my kid comes home late. The chances that Kenji and Mars will fight if the door is opened wrong is much less likely.
this is the upgrade to the Kennels. Kenji broke a wire on the small fencing. Notice the huge difference in size(gauge) he will not break this. I have two more pannels that should cover the wall dividing the two Kennels.
they are 16ft long. The Kennels are aprox 7 ft wide and 24 ft long each. I put patio blocks in cuz mudd was not fun. The blocks hose off and clean up easy. I got rubber mats for them to lay on and the dog house is elevated. I am thinking of adding straw or something softer to line most of the floor with.
this is my electronic dog hiring bike. When they was all getting along well we would attach all three to the bike. Kenji did almost all of the pulling the other two just trotted along. Unless they spotted a squirrel then we was off. This is a ruff sport if you do this be prepared to crash your bike. When I get them all good Muzzles and back to normal we might try this again. Until then only one dog at a time.
I found this link. Not sure how long it will stay good. But I am considering these methods for dealing with disagreements.
I have confirmed that Mars and Kenji will get along with each other. The reason is because they have agreed that Kenji is above Mars in the pack structure. I think it will be a long time before Mars challenges Kenji again if he ever does. From what I have studied. Once pack structure is established it tends to stay that way. This link kinda explains it.
I have also confirmed that Tachi and Eiji have agreed that Eiji is tuffer. But Tachi still demands respect. He will growl at Eiji and even scream at Eiji like a Shiba will. Tachi does this to Kenji Also and Mars too. What's funny is that they all take a step back. They give him his space. They avoid confrontation with Tachi. But they all know how they are stronger. It's best understood for me to realize that they respect him because he is the eldest of them.
Eiji and Mars. Mars still growls at Eiji when ever he gets with in two feet. I have not decided why. It could be several reasons. But I must say with Mars and Kenji being best of buddies. It is not a good idea to have all three on the same room. Mars could just be asking for respect like Tachi. Mars could be challenging Eiji. But if he were I think Eiji would either growl back or attack. But Eiji ignores it. So Eiji and Mars need some alone time with out Kenji so they can figure things out. Using tools and strategies layed out in this article.
Then there is Kenji and Eiji. Kenji is a 90lb AA Eiji is a 55lb JA. Kenji is almost 3 years old. Eiji is 9 months old. I think we all know who will be Alpha or who would win. But I will say it anyways. Kenji will want to establish that he is King. I need to let him do it in my presence or he will wait till I am not around. But I need to let them come to an agreement with out Eiji getting hurt. So I will muzzle them both. Put them in harnesses with leashes dragging the ground. I will have two people maybe three. We will let them meet in the backyard.
Hopefully what will happen is that Kenji will make a gesture like putting his nose on the back of Eiji's neck. Then hopefully Eiji will agree that it's OK. Then Kenji will nose Eiji's legs and get under him and pick his back legs off the ground. If Eiji is still OK with this. He will be very close to giving Kenji his position. If not I will need to pull them apart.
Generally I have always done this type of thing with out a muzzle. The last few times I have done this kind of thing with other dogs. They would have a disagreement and before they got seperated seconds later who ever hurt the other one generally got Alpha. Sometimes it took two or three of these encounters. I my experience's with other dogs. As long as the disagreement is seperated before any real damage gets done they won't hate each other.
For example Ares RIP. Established his position with my brothers Doberman in this way. It took just a few seconds to seperate them but Ares had bitten Roman on the leg. That fight could of gotten very bad for both dogs. But my brother and I seperated them fast. Roman limped around for a few days. But he submitted to Ares and never challengedvhim again for the 3 months that Roman stayed with me.
So using Muzzles and sprays or super soakers has never really been my thing. But I do not want Eiji to get scars on his face. Kenji is not as easy on them as he was when they were puppies.
Much like Tachi spending 4 months in a different room. This will take lots of time. My goal is to help them reconnect with each other with out getting hurt.
This will take sever Introductions. Several long walks. Eventually as they progress some bike Joring. Heavily supervised play time. And a little luck.
I haven't finished the third Kennel yet. So one of them gets to run loose in the backyard and kitchen. I woke up and my wife was out. The two dogs were Kennelled. Eiji could have been in the Kitchen or anywhere else. But he chooses to lay down right next to Kenji. Mars stood up as I snapped the picture. They do love each other still. I believe.
You need a certified behaviorist. Excuse me for being blunt: you seem to have good intentions as an owner, but the execution of the methods lacks direction and without guidance, you may do more harm than good. You may want to do more research about pack/alpha misconceptions also...I suspect you could be really misreading the whole situation.
I found a behaviorist I just need to make an appointment.
I use the term Alpha rather loosely. I considered not using the word at all cuz it causes controversy. I am actually Alpha. But I believe in pack structure. There is a pecking order. When all of them know their place things work out well.
I know many of you don't think I know what I am doing. Because I don't have a formal education in dog behavior. But in my defense I have had two adult Male Akita that get along(Ares and Kenji). Mars and Kenji are buddies again. I may fail.... They might not get along as adults. But it won't exactly be my fault. These are intact Male Akita. It is a challenge to find an owner who can have two Adult Males in the same house let alone the same room no matter how experienced the owner is. Most people wind up Keeping their Males seperate. There is a great chance that I will have to keep them separate. I have prepared to do just that. In my time on this forum no one as told me that they have two adult Males intact that get along. Nor have they shared how they achieved it. If there are people here that have been successful with multiple Male Akita please let me know. I am happy to Private message. I know lots of people are not comfortable posting publicly on this subject.
I believe I am pretty good at reading the situation. I believe that as long as all if them agree on the hyarchy then they will get along. There are different schools of thought on this subject. They are really just theorys. I believe in the pack mentality and positive reinforcement.
It's not hard to figure out that Kenji wants to be in charge of the other two. If the other two accept this my life will be much easier. I can't be with them every minute. So the idea of me having full control is not good. I will never be able to leave them alone if my leadership is required for every minute of time they spend together. Kenji is always here. He never leaves for work. Kenji is a good leader. He is confident and reliable he is consistent. If Eiji allows him to be leader Kenji will treat him kindly. It is also believed that once pack order is established that they tend to stay that way.
For an update. I had the day off. My wife and I geared up Kenji and Eiji with harnesses and leashes and Muzzles. We took video which I will share when I get it uploaded. But here is how things went.
Eiji was not real comfortable with his Muzzle cuz he has not spent a lot of time in one. Kenji barely notices he has one on. So I let Kenji in the kitchen. Kenji comes in and puts his nose at Eiji's ear. Eiji stands there. After a minute or so i took Eiji muzzle off. So in my opinion here is how the conversation went. Kenji infoms Eiji that he is still in charge. For lack of better words Kenji dominated Eiji. In a series of gestures and vocalizations he reminded Eiji of his place in the pack. Eiji basically took his lecture from Kenji and did not talk back. Eiji did not show fear. He did not shake he did not make a sound. He did not move during certain parts of the conversation. Kenji walked outside after a few minutes then came back in and layed down. My wife started petting Kenji and he gave his belly. Eiji was not in the mood to give his belly. So my wife switched with me and got him to give his belly. Shortly after Kenji gets up and starts another conversation with Eiji. Again Eiji takes the lecture with out any back talk. I called Kenji away just to see if I could. I did the recall a couple times then we ended the visit. I consider it a success Introduction. Cuz they talked but they didn't fight. I think a few more visits and things will start to relax.
why do you let your dogs gesture each other, or how you say "informs he is in charge"? dogs don't have conversations like we do.. they don't bark orders or declare they are in charge. and if they do then you need to stop that immediately. i manage up to 30 dogs a day in a dog daycare setting and that is not allowed. it causes fights, it causes bullying, etc. the dogs need to be confident in you as a leader, and then they will stop looking to others for leadership and instead look to you. why do you think your dogs fight? because they don't trust that you're going to handle the situation and must take it into their own hands. dogs give so many warning signs, and sometimes the other dog doesn't heed that warning and over the course of what could be days, weeks, months, years, the frustration builds up until they skip the whale eyes, the yawning, the turning away, lip curls, growls, and go straight to biting because everything else they have tried didn't get their point across and you as a leader failed to protect them.
what probably happened is kenji thought eiji was super annoying, because hes a puppy, and you let him annoy kenji so much that now kenji doesn't every wait for you to help or look to you for leadership to get the annoying puppy away.
part of same sex aggression is genetics. if the father of the dog is aggressive to other males, he could be too. but i also feel a lot of it is making sure the dog is comfortable. if your dog fights another dog it is 100% the owners fault, if i had a male akita, and our two akita saw each other from 100yards away, they will let their body posture say whether they want to say hi or no, and if we ignore those signals, which can happen way before we even get to each other, we are begging for a fight.
Based on everything written so far about your dogs, I still recommend an outside objective assessment ASAP.
I have multiple intact males of different breeds: Caucasian Ovcharka, two Shiba boys, Hokkaido puppy males...not Akitas but a popular saying from my Akita friends is that Shibas taught Akitas all their bad habits...Shibas are no picnic to keep together. The best method I know is to not allow them to "sort it out", to manage things so that dogs have safe zones away from each other, are never pressured to interact, are set up to make good choices, and are praised when they do good things. I consider myself to be somewhat dog savy, and still struggle at times to keep things in check here. I would feel extremely stressed out trying to manage your dogs the way you are...
I think a lot is lost in not being here and not knowing the dogs personally.
@omgtain. Unfortunately I can not always be around. I have work. I like to teach my dogs how to get along with out me. To do that they need to make agreements. Thank-you for your opinion about how they don't talk. I disagree I think they have very in depth conversations. I also can read body language. But I disagree about the bullying. Humans bully. Dogs dominate. They dominate for a reason. It is for communication. They do come to an understanding. I have managed to help more then just these two dogs come to an understanding. With all due respect you do not manage multiple Male Akita. Regular dogs are much much different. When you start managing dogs who were bred to fight your input will be much more valuable to me. No disrespect intended. Please don't take offense. If these dogs don't establish a pack order they will not be able to co exist. Akita are very independent. They do not look to humans for guidance or help. They make their own decisions. These are not labs.
@lindsayt as you know I own a Shiba also so I feel you about managing multiple Shiba. My Shiba is worse then my AA and if my AA was the size of a Shiba he would be in trouble.
to all: Mars and Kenji get along. I suspect it is because conversations like the one I am about to post happened with out me being present. If I ever want to be able to trust my dogs to get along. I Need to safety let them make agreements. I need to try not to humanize these dogs. I know when I described what Kenji said it may have sounded like I do. But its hard to put into words. So here is the Video of Kenji telling Eiji he is boss. As I have said if Eiji accepts this, things will be much easier.
Now you must also remember that Eiji grew up with Kenji they have had conversations like this before. Eiji has accepted Kenji as (dare I say)"Alpha" before. Kenji has raised these pups since they was 4 months old. They have had tons of good times. Tons of cuddle time. These dogs love each other. They have had only a couple disagreements and I have stepped in for their safety and so they don't actually hurt each other. Cuz that will cause hate. I plan to do meetings like the one you are about to see several times. Kenji will be Muzzled indefinitely while in the presence of Eiji. All three had issues a two weeks ago. Now Mars and Kenji are best of buddies. Mars accepted Kenji as "Alpha". Or boss or the guy that I left in charge. There are two videos. I am having issues with uploading them but one actually got uploaded today.
In my opinion this went well because they had a conversation and they didn't fight.
Honestly, nothing in that video is ok. Your JA dog is looking to you to help him because he is afraid and he is left hanging...of course they will want to fight if that's the only option he has left. The menacing behavior from the AA is totally inappropriate to allow to continue. I would abandon your ideas about alpha/dominance, it's not going to help at this point. The AA isn't being dominant, he is being a bully and resource guarding the water, and he is apparently getting away with it.
Honestly though, do you believe what you are doing is helping them be happy and well adjusted, or normal for a well managed pack? Or are they stressed by this method? I mean, I can FEEL the tension and fear in both your voices and it's obvious in the dogs too. I know you are trying and wanting to improve the situation, but I feel bad for the dogs, I really do. I would not be able to live day in and out seeing that level of tension from my dogs.
They are not living like this. They are separate. That is not about water. Kenji does not gaurd water. That was Kenji finishing a conversation that started a week ago. Eiji is not scared his tail is up. The fear you hear in my voice honestly is me not fearing the situation but knowing that I will be sharing this online and not really wanting to talk. Same with my wife. I am putting myself out there to be ridiculed. I am hoping this thread doesn't turn into that. I don't fear Kenji. I could call Kenji away and put an allusion on the situation that everything is OK. But what will happen is that he will obey me and not mess with Eiji. Then one day i will trust them alone. He will choose then to have this conversation. My only hope that they can be trusted alone. Is if I allow them to do what they will do if I am not there. But I am there to make sure no one gets hurt.
The view that dogs bully one another is not something I agree with. Kenji is not a bully. He does not bully the others and thus far he has never bullied the puppies. This is a lesson he is teaching Eiji.
I tend to agree with Tain and Lindsay here. I am going to write an evaluation if what I see in the video in a while, since I think it is very important for future readers.
His legs are not shaking his tail is not down. Do you thing that just because he did not attack is cuz he is scared? He is giving Kenji respect. He is being smart and not escalating the situation. But he is pretty far from scared. He will fight Kenji if Kenji pushes to far.
Comments
This thread is about how to live with multiple male Akita. I have made it so others will know the challenges they face when they Google this subject.
I have more pictures and story's to share. I just have not had time to post. I want to show you my Kennels and how I now am managing the dogs.
To answer your question about the Muzzle. They are not Muzzled all day. Yesterday they spent about an hour in the Muzzle. But I did not have them together in a stressful way.
There are lots of details that I have not shared yet.
After the last episode. I have decided that I need to take a more professional approach. I am gonna start following more professional rules when dealing with the dogs.
First of all they need to be seperated (obviously) when not supervised. They have spent 4 months together with out any problems.
Second. when they are together they will be Muzzled. They will each have a harness and a four foot lead to drag around. I will be making anchor points so I can separate them easier and safer.
Rule 3. Only two dogs together at a time.
Rule 4 have two people. That's me and my wife when the dogs are being trained.
I just woke up. But today I plan to upgrade the Kennels. They are not finished yet. I have two of them nearly done and about $2000 invested. With enough material to finish.
I have also made a few changes inside the house. I have four separate rooms.
Later I will share more details about the dynamics of the pack. Who gets along with who and why. and which behaviors I am trying to address.
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/9569/are-there-any-ja-puppies-forsale#Item_53
@t_dog - I believe your original thread was shut down so the rehoming discussion can't really be continued. I take it from the fact that you introduced a new puppy and how close Eiji is in age to Mars, that you found an AKIHO breeder willing to sell you a young show quality puppy and that after much consideration you have decided to still keep Mars? Different breed, but check some of @shibamistress threads on the shiba forum. She has some great posts about the difficulty of living in a multi-dog household (she had two shibas, an AA, and a kai ken and I think it's currently a shiba, two AA, and a kai ken) and the importance of introduction, socialization, and management.
Just a point of clarification, because I saw your thread on proposed dog runs and your offhand comment about leaving an akita in the backyard. All four of these dogs are living and sleeping inside of your home right? They're not spending a significant portion of their day in an outdoor run are they?
[edited for a stupid typo]
Here is a picture of the Kennels. I am still working on the third one.
I found this link. Not sure how long it will stay good. But I am considering these methods for dealing with disagreements.
I have confirmed that Mars and Kenji will get along with each other. The reason is because they have agreed that Kenji is above Mars in the pack structure. I think it will be a long time before Mars challenges Kenji again if he ever does. From what I have studied. Once pack structure is established it tends to stay that way. This link kinda explains it.
I have also confirmed that Tachi and Eiji have agreed that Eiji is tuffer. But Tachi still demands respect. He will growl at Eiji and even scream at Eiji like a Shiba will. Tachi does this to Kenji Also and Mars too. What's funny is that they all take a step back. They give him his space. They avoid confrontation with Tachi. But they all know how they are stronger. It's best understood for me to realize that they respect him because he is the eldest of them.
Eiji and Mars. Mars still growls at Eiji when ever he gets with in two feet. I have not decided why. It could be several reasons. But I must say with Mars and Kenji being best of buddies. It is not a good idea to have all three on the same room. Mars could just be asking for respect like Tachi. Mars could be challenging Eiji. But if he were I think Eiji would either growl back or attack. But Eiji ignores it. So Eiji and Mars need some alone time with out Kenji so they can figure things out. Using tools and strategies layed out in this article.
Then there is Kenji and Eiji. Kenji is a 90lb AA Eiji is a 55lb JA. Kenji is almost 3 years old. Eiji is 9 months old. I think we all know who will be Alpha or who would win. But I will say it anyways. Kenji will want to establish that he is King. I need to let him do it in my presence or he will wait till I am not around. But I need to let them come to an agreement with out Eiji getting hurt. So I will muzzle them both. Put them in harnesses with leashes dragging the ground. I will have two people maybe three. We will let them meet in the backyard.
Hopefully what will happen is that Kenji will make a gesture like putting his nose on the back of Eiji's neck. Then hopefully Eiji will agree that it's OK. Then Kenji will nose Eiji's legs and get under him and pick his back legs off the ground. If Eiji is still OK with this. He will be very close to giving Kenji his position. If not I will need to pull them apart.
Generally I have always done this type of thing with out a muzzle. The last few times I have done this kind of thing with other dogs. They would have a disagreement and before they got seperated seconds later who ever hurt the other one generally got Alpha. Sometimes it took two or three of these encounters. I my experience's with other dogs. As long as the disagreement is seperated before any real damage gets done they won't hate each other.
For example Ares RIP. Established his position with my brothers Doberman in this way. It took just a few seconds to seperate them but Ares had bitten Roman on the leg. That fight could of gotten very bad for both dogs. But my brother and I seperated them fast. Roman limped around for a few days. But he submitted to Ares and never challengedvhim again for the 3 months that Roman stayed with me.
So using Muzzles and sprays or super soakers has never really been my thing. But I do not want Eiji to get scars on his face. Kenji is not as easy on them as he was when they were puppies.
Much like Tachi spending 4 months in a different room. This will take lots of time. My goal is to help them reconnect with each other with out getting hurt.
This will take sever Introductions. Several long walks. Eventually as they progress some bike Joring. Heavily supervised play time. And a little luck.
I haven't finished the third Kennel yet. So one of them gets to run loose in the backyard and kitchen. I woke up and my wife was out. The two dogs were Kennelled. Eiji could have been in the Kitchen or anywhere else. But he chooses to lay down right next to Kenji. Mars stood up as I snapped the picture. They do love each other still. I believe.
I use the term Alpha rather loosely. I considered not using the word at all cuz it causes controversy. I am actually Alpha. But I believe in pack structure. There is a pecking order. When all of them know their place things work out well.
I know many of you don't think I know what I am doing. Because I don't have a formal education in dog behavior. But in my defense I have had two adult Male Akita that get along(Ares and Kenji). Mars and Kenji are buddies again. I may fail.... They might not get along as adults. But it won't exactly be my fault. These are intact Male Akita. It is a challenge to find an owner who can have two Adult Males in the same house let alone the same room no matter how experienced the owner is. Most people wind up Keeping their Males seperate. There is a great chance that I will have to keep them separate. I have prepared to do just that. In my time on this forum no one as told me that they have two adult Males intact that get along. Nor have they shared how they achieved it. If there are people here that have been successful with multiple Male Akita please let me know. I am happy to Private message. I know lots of people are not comfortable posting publicly on this subject.
I believe I am pretty good at reading the situation. I believe that as long as all if them agree on the hyarchy then they will get along. There are different schools of thought on this subject. They are really just theorys. I believe in the pack mentality and positive reinforcement.
It's not hard to figure out that Kenji wants to be in charge of the other two. If the other two accept this my life will be much easier. I can't be with them every minute. So the idea of me having full control is not good. I will never be able to leave them alone if my leadership is required for every minute of time they spend together. Kenji is always here. He never leaves for work. Kenji is a good leader. He is confident and reliable he is consistent. If Eiji allows him to be leader Kenji will treat him kindly. It is also believed that once pack order is established that they tend to stay that way.
For an update.
I had the day off. My wife and I geared up Kenji and Eiji with harnesses and leashes and Muzzles. We took video which I will share when I get it uploaded. But here is how things went.
Eiji was not real comfortable with his Muzzle cuz he has not spent a lot of time in one. Kenji barely notices he has one on. So I let Kenji in the kitchen. Kenji comes in and puts his nose at Eiji's ear. Eiji stands there. After a minute or so i took Eiji muzzle off. So in my opinion here is how the conversation went. Kenji infoms Eiji that he is still in charge. For lack of better words Kenji dominated Eiji. In a series of gestures and vocalizations he reminded Eiji of his place in the pack. Eiji basically took his lecture from Kenji and did not talk back. Eiji did not show fear. He did not shake he did not make a sound. He did not move during certain parts of the conversation. Kenji walked outside after a few minutes then came back in and layed down. My wife started petting Kenji and he gave his belly. Eiji was not in the mood to give his belly. So my wife switched with me and got him to give his belly. Shortly after Kenji gets up and starts another conversation with Eiji. Again Eiji takes the lecture with out any back talk. I called Kenji away just to see if I could. I did the recall a couple times then we ended the visit. I consider it a success Introduction. Cuz they talked but they didn't fight. I think a few more visits and things will start to relax.
Thank you for your concern and advise.
dogs don't have conversations like we do.. they don't bark orders or declare they are in charge. and if they do then you need to stop that immediately. i manage up to 30 dogs a day in a dog daycare setting and that is not allowed. it causes fights, it causes bullying, etc. the dogs need to be confident in you as a leader, and then they will stop looking to others for leadership and instead look to you.
why do you think your dogs fight? because they don't trust that you're going to handle the situation and must take it into their own hands. dogs give so many warning signs, and sometimes the other dog doesn't heed that warning and over the course of what could be days, weeks, months, years, the frustration builds up until they skip the whale eyes, the yawning, the turning away, lip curls, growls, and go straight to biting because everything else they have tried didn't get their point across and you as a leader failed to protect them.
what probably happened is kenji thought eiji was super annoying, because hes a puppy, and you let him annoy kenji so much that now kenji doesn't every wait for you to help or look to you for leadership to get the annoying puppy away.
part of same sex aggression is genetics. if the father of the dog is aggressive to other males, he could be too. but i also feel a lot of it is making sure the dog is comfortable. if your dog fights another dog it is 100% the owners fault, if i had a male akita, and our two akita saw each other from 100yards away, they will let their body posture say whether they want to say hi or no, and if we ignore those signals, which can happen way before we even get to each other, we are begging for a fight.
I have multiple intact males of different breeds: Caucasian Ovcharka, two Shiba boys, Hokkaido puppy males...not Akitas but a popular saying from my Akita friends is that Shibas taught Akitas all their bad habits...Shibas are no picnic to keep together. The best method I know is to not allow them to "sort it out", to manage things so that dogs have safe zones away from each other, are never pressured to interact, are set up to make good choices, and are praised when they do good things. I consider myself to be somewhat dog savy, and still struggle at times to keep things in check here. I would feel extremely stressed out trying to manage your dogs the way you are...
@omgtain. Unfortunately I can not always be around. I have work. I like to teach my dogs how to get along with out me. To do that they need to make agreements. Thank-you for your opinion about how they don't talk. I disagree I think they have very in depth conversations. I also can read body language. But I disagree about the bullying. Humans bully. Dogs dominate. They dominate for a reason. It is for communication. They do come to an understanding. I have managed to help more then just these two dogs come to an understanding. With all due respect you do not manage multiple Male Akita. Regular dogs are much much different. When you start managing dogs who were bred to fight your input will be much more valuable to me. No disrespect intended. Please don't take offense. If these dogs don't establish a pack order they will not be able to co exist. Akita are very independent. They do not look to humans for guidance or help. They make their own decisions. These are not labs.
@lindsayt as you know I own a Shiba also so I feel you about managing multiple Shiba. My Shiba is worse then my AA and if my AA was the size of a Shiba he would be in trouble.
to all: Mars and Kenji get along. I suspect it is because conversations like the one I am about to post happened with out me being present. If I ever want to be able to trust my dogs to get along. I Need to safety let them make agreements. I need to try not to humanize these dogs. I know when I described what Kenji said it may have sounded like I do. But its hard to put into words. So here is the Video of Kenji telling Eiji he is boss. As I have said if Eiji accepts this, things will be much easier.
Now you must also remember that Eiji grew up with Kenji they have had conversations like this before. Eiji has accepted Kenji as (dare I say)"Alpha" before. Kenji has raised these pups since they was 4 months old. They have had tons of good times. Tons of cuddle time. These dogs love each other. They have had only a couple disagreements and I have stepped in for their safety and so they don't actually hurt each other. Cuz that will cause hate. I plan to do meetings like the one you are about to see several times. Kenji will be Muzzled indefinitely while in the presence of Eiji. All three had issues a two weeks ago. Now Mars and Kenji are best of buddies. Mars accepted Kenji as "Alpha". Or boss or the guy that I left in charge. There are two videos. I am having issues with uploading them but one actually got uploaded today.
In my opinion this went well because they had a conversation and they didn't fight.
Honestly though, do you believe what you are doing is helping them be happy and well adjusted, or normal for a well managed pack? Or are they stressed by this method? I mean, I can FEEL the tension and fear in both your voices and it's obvious in the dogs too. I know you are trying and wanting to improve the situation, but I feel bad for the dogs, I really do. I would not be able to live day in and out seeing that level of tension from my dogs.
The view that dogs bully one another is not something I agree with. Kenji is not a bully. He does not bully the others and thus far he has never bullied the puppies. This is a lesson he is teaching Eiji.
You should stop anthropomorphizing them.