yay I got a new puppy! tuff introduction ahead.

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  • aykayk
    edited November 2015
    Try resources from behaviorists like Patricia McConnell, Sophia Yin, and Ian Dunbar.

    I've purchased and distributed several copies of the "Leader of the Pack" booklets by Patricia McConnell to one of my puppy families. It's short enough to fit most people's and kids' attention span. 16 pages.
  • Oh- Patricia McConnell has a good one called "Feeling Outnumbered" about multi dog living.
  • Just me but i think an hour is too long. I would start with 10 minute meeting and slowly bump it up. Over the course of an hour stress can rise and you're tipping into the more possibilities of something happening..

    I dont know of you've ever been to a dog park, daycare, or a sporting event, but as the day goes on the dogs get annoyed with each other. They get agitated, stressed, tired, etc.
  • I took Ares to the dog park. There is a thread around here some where about it. He lasted till about 11 months then he couldn't go anymore. My Shiba had a few bad experiences there and gets anxious if I take him. So my three new dogs have only seen the dog park after hours when I am really not supposed to be there.

    I get what your saying though. What I have a hard time understanding is how they can lay right next to each other with a fence between them. But when I open the door I can see the change in demeanor.

    @ayk I found this you think i should get it?

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/034544678X/ref=pb_pd_lutyp_mr_1_3?pi=SY115#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1448540501092
  • I haven't read "The Other End of the Leash", but it's regarded as a good book. Most people enjoy the anecdotes to explain concepts, but there are some that were looking for instructions and this isn't quite it.

    I think it will help modernize your understanding of behavior and dominance, but then it will need to be further expanded upon.
  • edited December 2015
    Disclaimer: I'm not as experienced as the folks above, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Now having said that, here's my two cents:

    I second that it might be useful to disregard all the 'alpha' and 'dominance' thinking... I rarely see good results stem from that school of thought. So when seeking a behaviourist, maybe keep that in mind! They, too, come in all sorts of flavours.

    I'm biased, but I really think it's important to expose dogs to other well social'd animals. Your shiba and AA do not seem to be good role models for your new pups. Doggy day care is such a good way to expose puppies and young dogs to other well social'd animals. Even group puppy classes can be a big help. Things like that are the one piece of advice I'd give any owner getting a puppy. I don't know if more socialization would help them get along with Kenji, but I think it might prevent them from becoming like him in the future (a bully). Eiji seems like such a sweetheart! Kenji, on the other hand, has some behaviours to work out. I know you said Eiji and Mars were going to get fixed... is Kenji fixed yet?

    One of my brothers' dogs acts like Kenji did in that video. He, too, was never socialized... except for once in a while with the dogs of friends and family. He has guarding issues. He postures. He tries to start fights... or misinterprets signals and thinks it's a fight. He's smaller so he is much easier to handle, but it used to be a lot worse! Patience and preventative methods have helped out a lot. My brother can probably never take him to a dog park, but at least fights don't break out in the house any more!

    Good for you for putting together a way to manage the dogs. Take it slow and keep things stress free when they interact (no resources to guard nearby might help). As has already been pointed out, I think instead of letting Kenji dictate the situation... you should be the one doing that. Recognize when he is being a dick and tell him to leave the other dogs alone, or lead him away before stress levels escalate.

    There's some really great and thoughtful advice in this thread, it seems. It's also obvious you really care for your animals. Don't get too discouraged! We are all learning. And, of course, people seeking similar advice will learn from this thread in turn.
  • I have been reading a book called The Dog's Mind by Bruce Fogle. What Kenji has is inter male aggression. The book doesn't say this but breed standard pretty much sums it up as normal for an Akita to have inter male aggression. Kenji is not a bad dog. He is not a dick or a bully. He like all Male Akita wants to be top dog or Alpha dog. I know these are bad words to some of you. But it is a fact about Akita. Kenji treats all the dogs that accept him as Alpha with great respect and lots of love. He only treats Eiji the way he does cuz he knows Eiji does not accept him as Alpha. While Eiji did not fight Kenji. I know that if Eiji submits to Kenji they would be buddies again. But Eiji is true to standard just as Kenji is. Both want to be Alpha so they will always fight. No matter who loses the fight there will never be a submission on either one. They are Akita. Not just dogs. No they are not like any other dog. They are Akita. Where it is in the breed standard that they don't get along with other males. Mars to his breeders credit has a temperament that is not standard ofcourse his looks are way off standard as well. Mars accepted Kenji as Alpha he got his butt kicked is the first fight and took his proper place in the pack. Which is why him an Kenji get along so well. I am not willing to let Eiji get his butt beat on the chance that he too will learn his place. In fact if I had a chance to stop the fight Mars may have never took his place in the pack. Tachi my Shiba no matter how many times he loses to Kenji still challenges him. I mean looks him in the eye growls and snaps at his nose. Challenges him. Tachi will never back down. Never out right submit. Fortunate for him Kenji don't feel the need to draw blood on Tachi. Unfortunately he feels the need to draw blood on Eiji to reinforcement that he is Alpha. There are no equals with dogs. Even tho I am Alpha as human I can't dictate who is below me and who is below the next. I know its not popular opinion here. But read the book. It makes sense. Kenji has male on male aggression based on his need to be the dominant dog. Not resource gaurding. He don't do that. Not toy gaurding he don't do that either. His only issue is that he feels the need to beat up Eiji to establish the hiarchy. I know you all mean wellas behaviorists. But I can only say if you don't believe me get three Intact (yes it matters) Akita and try to share a home with them. You will see that they are not just dogs or average dogs. You will see that it's not the owner. It is the breed. It is genetics. I made this thread to show that no matter how good you raise them they are Male Akita the chances that they won't get along as adults is very very high. This forum is full of Akita owners. This tread is old. If there were anyone here that has three male intact Akita that get along I certainly would hope they spoke up by now. Again I say its not the owner it is the breed. These two dogs are Alpha dogs and will likely never get along. BTW Kenji will be getting fixed soon. But I doubt I will ever put him in the same room with Eiji again. After reading this book.
  • I'm sorry but you are wrong. Akitas ARE just dogs. They aren't a special snowflake.

    IMO you are creating these problems for yourself by making excuses. If you want to live a life of managing stressful encounters, always having to keep an eye behind you to make sure that door is shut, and knowing that it could cost your dog's life if you fuck up... then be my guest.

    Any breeder who says that it is the 'breed standard' for a dog to be aggressive is not a good breeder in my eyes. They are using an excuse for their dog's bad behavior / temperament. If anything they should be working towards breeding away from such behaviors or educating their puppy owners properly.

    Either way, you only value what you put your faith into. If you put your faith into that book, or Cesar Millan, or god, whatever, of course it's going to 'make sense'. Essentially all you did was use a book to validate your prior beliefs. Good job ?
  • It's in the breed standard. I attended my first Akita dog show not long ago. It was fairly obvious that as a handler your best off to not let two males meet. Even a six feet apart when walking dogs past the crates of other dogs. You could see plainly the inter male aggression. Handlers would cover the eyes of their dog when they noticed eye contact. There where special rules in place such as dog must be in a crate and not on a flexy leash. No dogs off leash at the show. We all know the temperament of this breed. This breed is one of the only if not the only breed that it is acceptable for a male to show aggression towards another male while in the ring and not get disqualified. It's not an excuse. It is a fact. It's a fact that many in this community do not deny. This is not the pit bull advocacy group who denies the temperament of their breed and blames the owner when their breed does what it was bred to do. In this community I am proud to say that many of our breeders will tell you straight out that this breed is dog on dog aggressive. It's just plain irresponsible of breeders to try and pass their dogs off as having the temperament of a golden retriever if only raised correctly. But by all means prove me wrong. Purchase three male Akita don't get them fixed until 2 years old and see how your ideas about raising them works for you. So far not one person in this community has came forward to let me know they have multiple Male Akita who share a home and yard and are not kept separate. But there is a plethora of owners who will be able to say yes I have multiple Male Akita unaltered that need to be seperated because they fight. It's not the owner its the breed. This forum has many talented Akita owners. But no one has been able to say they achieved this. If its my fault explain why I got Kenji and Mars to get along but not Kenji and Eiji. Not everything is the owners fault. Sometimes it's in the genetics.
  • http://www.thedogplace.org/BREEDS/Akita/Standards-AKC-UKC.asp

    Scroll to temperament. It's expected. It's part of what they are.
  • Yeah. I know its genetics. If you want 3 male akita why would you go to a breeder that breeds akita with bad temperaments? That is all on you. Lol.

    And I'm sorry but those 'special rules' are rules of all dog shows. At every single dog show dogs must be leashed (6ft or less) or crated. Handlers don't want their dogs focusing on other dogs because they need to be focused on their handler. Letting the dogs greet each other raises the energy in the ring and you're more likely to lose focus / control of your dog. Like I said, these are not akita specific things. These are dog things, because we own dogs. And akita are in fact, dogs.

    I don't know why you talk like you actually know any of the breeders on their forum or have had personal experiences with them ? Or that you actually know the community here at all ? Because all I see is you disregarding everyones advice. You showed promise, that you were listening to the great advice offered, but you're still relying on the same old theories. I'd love to see another video of your dogs interacting after you educated yourself so well with a book that made sense. I'd love to see how the alpha theory has sorted all of your problems out.
  • I am not going to subject Eiji to that. In theory it makes sense. That to change a behavior like challenging the Alpha male. In a wolf pack which is where dog genetics start. He would hafta get his butt kick pretty hard in order to never challenge Kenji again. This would leave him with wounds and scares mental and physical. If Kenji was gonna kill him he would have by now.

    As a behaviorist did you not study genetics?

    There is a base from which dogs come from. The book if you read it will explain much better then I ever could.

    There will always be a chance that these two dogs will fight. No matter how I train them. I take the risk that they will fight. I can be the leader I can do sit stays and down stays I can train and train and train. But the risk is still there. If I listen to a behaviorist about how to fix this and it don't work Eiji gets hurt. That's not a risk I am willing to take.

    I keep them seperated. They don't fence fight. They don't try to get at each other when I open a door. There is a chance I could get them to get along. But the risk is high. If I left them to figure it out for themselves they would. But at a price. Mental and physical scars. Fear issues. Again not something I am willing to do.

    Kenji wants to be the dominant Alpha. That's why he has inter male aggression with Eiji. If you were here observing what I have observed in real time. You would see it too. If you saw how Kenji interacts with Mars and Tachi you would see it.

    There are no more videos to share because I don't put Kenji with Eiji. Unless you want videos of Kenji and Mars. But they are boring cuz Kenji and Mars are buddies. They figured it out on their own when I was not there. Mars lets Kenji be Alpha.

    At some point you should also understand that the way you learned in the books you have read in not the only way. This book also discussed ways to train and the learned behavior And conditioned response and that stuff. For training him not to act that way. But this book also admits that even if I do all this training and get him fixed and even give him progesterone shots all of this mixed together to fix the problem. He still might fight Eiji and still might hurt him. So that's your way. Train train train. Get him fixed. Manipulate his mind.

    Or there is another way I beat him when he does it. Also very risky. Not only for me cuz an Akita will likely fight back. Normal dogs don't fight back. They cower. He would likely fight back. If I back down he wins. He gets worse. So I would likely hafta beat him down with a bat to win. This would cause fear issues and maybe human aggression and many other possible outcomes besides him submitting. But it could change his behavior. After all that's how wolf packs do it. The loser is beaten so badly that he never attempts to challenge the leader again. This is how they figure it out.

    Now am I willing to do any of this. ***NO!*** Why because it all has risk. Every single way I could deal with inter male aggression has risk. I am NOT going to take that risk. So yes. I have the tools to keep them separate and that's what I plan to do. I am the type of person that will study all routes before I chose one. This is not the only book I will read. But at this point I only see to much risk. I have been very polite. I also appreciate all the input I have gotten. I am not ignoring any advise. But at this point I am done putting these two dogs together.

    If you have a specific book to recommend and its not a $200 book I will buy and read it. Because I am not done educating myself on this subject. The book The Dog's Mind only takes a few hours to read through. If your really on board with this journey I am on, plz spend the $7 on Amazon and buy it used. The author is very educated. He can explain the genetics and hormones and how they influence the brain and how a dog thinks.
  • edited December 2015
    While I'm sure that book has a lot of insightful theories, as was already mentioned... it was published in 1992. Over 20 years ago! At that time, people still built off of Schenkel's theory of wolf pack hierarchy... which was established way back in the 1940's. It's that thinking that led people to the idea that alpha rolling their dog would help establish the person as an 'alpha' and solve behaviour problems. So take the things it says with a grain of salt. It was only in 1999 that people discovered that their pre-conceived idea of a 'pack structure' was completely wrong. :)

    Personally, I think it's silly people even compare domesticated dogs to wolves, but that's another thing altogether! When you see 'success' stories of dogs being 'put in their place' in the 'pack structure'... it's not magical canine society at its best. It's a dog who was just beat down and bullied so much that he is afraid. Afraid to look others in the eye. Afraid to trust. Afraid to eat. It's why I really dislike the notion of dominance training.

    Having a way to manage your dogs with the gates and whatnot was really well thought out, but it'd be nice if you didn't have to rely on it, you know? Social dominance and dog aggression is a complicated thing that most people don't label correctly, and it's a thing that I don't have the qualifications to discuss confidently. A professional should definitely be brought in, if you want to get a good opinion on how to handle things. Maybe it can't be helped... but maybe it can. All you can do is try! :D

  • I have bought 4 Akita from 3 different breeders. I believe they all are on this forum. I have talked to them privately for long periods before buying and some after buying. The breeders I talked to and many conversations I have had here and on fb pages have lead me to believe that not many breeders try to tell new buyers that. 1 these are dog park dogs. Or 2 that they are just regular dogs. And especially not. "its all in how you raise them". Thank god I didn't get a breeder like that. My breeders told me straight out. These are not dog park Dog's. Nor day care dogs. These are not labs. They have male on male aggression issues. They are hard to train. Their recall sucks. I was told these things before buying. I am glad that they told me these things. Cuz the pit bull advocacy groups and people who say oh its the owners fault or its how you raise them. Those are the irresponsible breeders. It's funny how bad owners never buy golden retrievers right? I was asked to buy and read the treasure of Japan and dog man before I bought my first Akita. I was educated about the temperament of an Akita by the breeders. They didn't not pull that pit bull advocacy bs about its all how you raise them crap. I was warned that having more than one was not a good idea. But I bought into the bs of its all in how you raise them. It's not. It has much to do with genetics. So when a behaviorist gets on this forum and starts saying this stuff I am a bit sceptical cuz this community has taught me about the temperament of the Akita. This its not just a dog. This is not your average boxer or lab or golden. They are much different. For you to say its just a dog..... I forget @omgtain what breed do you live with?

    There is nothing wrong with Kenji he is just your average Male Akita. This is what they are. As far as temperament. Both my JA have proven to have great temperament. Kenji is the eldest now. He expects to be dominant. He let Ares be the Alpha. He took his place. Now it's natural. He wants to be Alpha. I guess it is old thinking. But in observing them I can see that's what he wants. I am not willing to let things take their natural course.

    Point being I do know what Akita breeders say. I think the next book I will buy is the other end of the leash. Thanks for reading and thanks for helping. I don't mean to sound hostile. If that's the way this reads I apologize. Cuz that's not my intent.
  • I don't think anyone here would suggest that your dogs are behaving out of character for their breed. But it's not purely an Akita thing either, all of the Nihon Ken are similar in this regard, as are other primitive hunting breeds. As for how many members house multiple intact males together, I cannot answer. But most people who own more than a handful of dogs use a crate/rotate or kennel setup.

    I think people were concerned mostly that you were putting your quarrelsome dogs together, and essentially letting them "work it out" on their own, leading to inappropriate situations. And the senior dog in this case is more of a bully than a mentor. There was a high amount of stress all around. But it sounds like now you have changed tactics and are focusing on safer separate management. It may still be beneficial to work with a behaviorist to help set up positive scenarios for the dogs to learn appropriate behavior, either with each other or other dogs in a class setup.

    One thing that stood out to me was that the problems seem to occur indoors in close quarters. When outside, the dogs will lay near each other with no problem. You say resources aren't an issue, but they probably are - space, food, water, even attention from you and your family are all resources. When push comes to shove, it's natural for a dog to defend such things, and these breeds are more eager to engage when triggered.

    If you are interested, here are a few relevant threads -
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5713/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-of-the-alpha-dog-valid/p1
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/6867/lets-discuss-the-role-of-dominance-in-the-social-hierarchy-training-of-domestic-and-wild-canine-/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5911/the-macho-myth-dr-ian-dunbar/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5403/patricia-mcconnells-take-on-the-d-word-/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/4625/video-quantum-canine-no-such-thing-as-dominance/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5137/what-is-wrong-with-cesar-millan-and-what-is-wrong-with-us/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6122/what-the-experts-say-about-the-dog-whisperer-cesar-millan/p1
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/111719#Comment_111719
  • Well, good luck with that. I hope you come to understand how good management is equally important in keeping a well adjusted group of dogs. Genetics surely plays a part and nobody denies that, but bad management can blow all that out of the water. That isn't "pitbull denial" or whatever you call it, it is embracing nature AND nurture. You might enjoy some of the Turid Rugaas films/books about Calming Signals and canine body language...you would probably be able to read your dogs better, at least be able to see the big stress signals they exhibited in the videos (the one who was fearful and the bully...you DO have a dog bully on your hands). But this is all falling on deaf ears, so best of luck.
  • I will post some video later of Mars and Kenji. The behaviour your seeing in the video is very rare for Kenji. He has done this twice to Eiji. Once in the videos I showed you and he tried one more time after that. But I stopped it. He would not recall so I had to pull him away as I did. He tied to bite Eiji and Eiji attacked him. We was prepared and no one got hurt. But that was the last time I tried. Kenji only does this to Eiji. There is a reason I just don't know for sure. You know I have my theory about why he is doing it.

    I am just at a point where. I have weighed the risk and the reward of trying to fix this problem. The risk out weights the reward.

    You guys know how angry Akita can get. I know many of you have seen and angry Akita. Say I do everything just perfect. I get professional help. They start to get along. So I let them in the TV room and a month has went by. They have not had a disagreement. Then I bring an whiteys cup in the living room and bam fight. No harness no muzzle. My wife and I forced to seperate them bare handed. What if Mars is in the room cuz I have done so well with him. Mars will join in Tachi will join in. Trust me its a dog pile.

    Now I care about all my dogs. I don't want them to get cut up. But I know that if its just Kenji and Eiji. I will have a 60lb JA and a 90lb AA very angry at each other. I know who will win. I know that it's very likely that Kenji won't even get hurt. I know the Eiji will get hurt.

    Not only will Eiji get scars physically and Mentally. Eiji won best Male in the last show he was in. He has great potential to be a CH. I don't want to have a show dog with a big scar across his anything. I don't want his ears ripped I don't want him blind in one eye. I don't want scars on his nose. Not only do I not want this because I love him. But I don't want my stupidity to ruin his life or his career.

    So while its a great fantasy and might even be accomplished I just do not see it being worth the risk.

    I have been lucky with Mars his wounds (puncture wounds) healed pretty good. He has not and likely will not challenge Kenji ever again.

    Eiji and Tachi get along. Mars and Kenji get along so that's how they are paired. So this is where I am at. I will still study this subject I will buy more books and try to read the suggested material. But I am not sure I will ever try any of it. It's just to risky. I think we all know the damage Akita can do to each other in just seconds.

    Thank you all for your concern and your advise. But I believe I am just gonna do what those before me have done and keep them separate.
  • I am just going to leave this here:

    http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/255g05-en.pdf

    While the US AKC standard states that "Akitas may be intolerant of other dogs, particularly of the same sex", (emphasis added by me), the FCI standard forbids aggressive dogs (it is a disqualifying fault).

    Same sex aggression is common in many breeds, not just Akitas, and is something that can be managed and improved upon using positive reinforcement methods.

    For your ( @T_Dog ) education, I highly suggest that you take Lindsay's advice and look at some of those videos. I also suggest that you bring in a certified behaviourist to help you understand what is happening in your home with your dogs (it has nothing to do with "alpha", and everything to do with a dog that has been allowed to bully others).
  • @Sunyata it may not be in all of the standards but please don't deny that Akita have male on male aggression issues.

    We all know its a fact. In any of the Kennel clubs it is known. And while an overly aggressive dog may get disqualified. Trust and believe male on male aggression is expected and accepted during a dog show. The show I attended in California this year, care was taken to keep these dogs a safe distance from each other.

    Let's not get carried away here. We all know this about the breed. Let's not deny it. It's in all the good Akita books like the Treasure of Japan and Dog Man. Both books acknowledge that these dogs were bred to fight and that male on male aggression should be expected. Planned for.

    I knew there was a risk that they all would not get along when I went into this. That's why I started building the Kennels when they were 4 months old 4 months before I encountered any issues among the 3 Akita. Many people saw the writing on the wall. Many people knew that the odds of this happening were very high. Many of us know thàt I am lucky that two of them that can coexist.(knock on wood)
    So lets all try not to get carried away and crucify me as a bad owner. I am pretty far from a bad owner. I don't know everything. I have been wrong more then once. I started this tread thinking I could have three male Akita get along. I was wrong.

    I had Ares and Kenji get along. I have Kenji and Mars; (Ares biological brother) not sure if Kenji can smell that. Getting along. OK. so its not like I a worthless here. I have successfully gotten two male Akita to co exist. Twice. My Shiba amazingly gets along with all of them even as Shiba as he is.

    So how about some of us maybe take a step back with the "attacks" the insults and for those who may not have been very nice try to be a little nicer. For many of you that have been very helpful I thank you.

    I am taking in all the advise, I am carefully considering all of it. But it does land square on me if I take bad advise from someone who means well and my dog gets hurt. For me the stakes are high. Last thing I want is one of them hurting the other. So if I seem argumentive or like I am not listening its because I a moving slow and careful and considering all the different theorys.

    I am Considering all different techniques. Because the conversation in the video of Kenji bullying Eiji. I honestly thought that would end this. Eiji did not fight and Kenji dominated. I thought it would end there. I was wrong.

    So they will remain seperated indefinitely. While I learn and strategize and get Kenji neutered. They may never share a room again. I am OK with that. But trust and believe I will keep studying and learning.
  • You're dismissing a behaviorist because you think that will mean you having to force the dogs to be loose in a room together??? So what exactly do you think a behaviorist does?

    I imagine some of your dogs are well beyond being able to integrate with each other at this point.
  • Is that not the whole goal of employing a behaviorist to get Kenji and Eiji to get along?
  • You may be right about some some of them not integrating at this point. But what your wrong about is it being my fault. For I have been successful at doing this before. There is nothing behind the scenes. You know about every interaction between them since the first fight. Before that they got along just fine. The few times I have tried to reconcile them has not had a big impact on anything. I have made few mistakes cuz I have only attempted a few times. They literally when from getting along to not like a light switch.
  • @Lindsayt I am not completely dismissing a behaviorist coming to my house. I will do that at some point. I am not completely dismissing the behaviorists on this thread. I just realize that they are not in my house. They have two videos to go off from. They have not seen how Kenji interacts with the other dogs and many other things you simply must be in the house to see. Some of the things they are saying about Akita goes against everything I have learned about Akita in the last almost 4 years. I can't just willy nilly trust everything and every opinion I hear on the internet. I need to be careful. But yes I definitely think the behaviorists will want to put the two dogs in the same room. I am not really comfortable with that.
  • The behaviorist is hired by you to help with your goals, evaluate your dogs: your goal should be for all in your home to feel safe and happy. The goal is not to make Kenji and EIji get along- that ship has SAILED. Your goal is to get a fresh objective knowledgable eye on the individuals involved and suggest ways to manage them all to avoid conflict and train what you can. I am going on 10 years of keeping a highly reactive dog that I love, and I rotate two males who don't get along, so I know a little bit about this subject. Key advice from my behaviorist years ago was "Stop worrying about the dogs you WISH you had and SEE the dogs you have. Stop 'working on' and start 'living with." Accept the dogs you have for who they are and manage them so they succeed.

    I'd also add here that I have one intact male dog, and he is my first intact dog. If I have learned anything from this experience is that they are individuals and a lot of things I previously generalized about intact male dogs are not true for him specifically, at least not the way he lives here. SEE the dog you have, really SEE him/them as who they are- leave breed generalizations and intactness aside and look at behavior objectively- what is the dog choosing to do? Step back and look bigger picture at how these specific dogs are interacting in the community you are constructing to them, make adjustments to diminish the threatening behavior you don't want. This is what the behaviorist does.

    Dog behavior science and training has come a long way in the last 30 years, and 'acceptable' is a human cultural construct. If it is 'acceptable' for Morie Sawataishi and his old dog buddies to face off males in the ring in Japan 60 years ago and applaud the dogs' reaction, that is a different thing from 'acceptable' in your family and home with your pets in 2015. Morie did not expect all his dogs to even come into the house, never mind hang around peacefully together watching tv. Keeping them in their kennels was 'acceptable.'

    Brad @brada1878 keeps a dozen or so intact male dogs of mastiff and guardian breeds and he has reasonable expectations for them, which does not include that they all hang around the house together in harmony. Some never come in the house, others are often couch buddies for movie time. But none of them are allowed to be dicks to each other. Accept your dogs who for whom they are as individuals. Manage them like an experienced adult dog-man who likes to keep a lot of intact males of powerful breeds OR decide that you really do want a life with dogs who get along and hang out as buddies and choose those dogs you have that can do that and rehome the bully. Just because they got along when they were younger means nothing now that they are all adults. Just because you got other individuals to get along means nothing now. New dogs, new day.

    I will also speak as a person who lives in a house, with my husband and a teenager: choosing to keep this dog that must be highly managed affects everyone. I have chosen to manage Sage for his almost 10 years with us- I believe that I could not rehome him, nobody goes *looking* for a difficult dog - I experience caregiver fatigue and my family has to be on board with his management, and they feel it too. My husband would prefer that we didn't have to apply a frosted film to the windows on the side of the house that faces the road for Sage. My daughter would love to have lots of friends over bouncing around playing dance video games and making lots of teenage girl giggling noises- that'd stress my dog out. I would like to be able to work in the art room without having the door closed all the time, which is subtle but consistent long term barrier to my family just popping in to say hi while I am working. I have a dog in here who can't be loose with another one. The door stays shut. and it kinda sucks. But I don't have steel bars on any doors in my house and you are already there. Maybe you are a welder and this just seemed doable.

    Consider well the impact on your dogs and on your family of keeping your bully boy. There is no prize for being able to force two people or two dogs or two hamsters to get along- it doesn't make any of us a 'better' or more skilled dog keeper. Especially if you have to behave like a tyrant, bar up your home, and spout a lot of Alpha-dog crap. Success is identifying what you have and creating the combination of what allows the greatest harmony. There is no shame in finding the best home for an otherwise good dog that is making everyone's life miserable in the situation finds himself in- since he has no other behavior problems, maybe your bully would live perfectly well in a home with no other dogs, I don't know. (I want to clarify that there are worlds of difference between rehoming a dog thoughtfully to a safe knowledgable home and keeping a relationship with them, or returning hm to his breeder versus putting him on CL or in a county shelter. Rehoming a dog is not failure, it can lead to the greatest success for all. I had to rehome a dog a long time ago, I felt horrible and like a failure but I woman'd up and did the right thing for her and for my family and for my older dog. It was painful emotionally and to my ego, but objectively, it worked out much better for the dog and for us.) But i see you turning yourself into pretzels with the combination of dogs and the expectations you are currently working with for them and your household, you know?
  • Yes to this ^

    A behaviorist would not put anyone in a situation that could harm them or cause stress, knowing there has been fights already and human bites. As Chrys wrote, that ship has sailed.
  • @wrylybrindle thank you for opening up to me the way you just did. I respect that. You put yourself out there and gave me truly heartfelt advise. I appreciate that comment. I am just not at a rehoming place in my heart. But I can relate to much that you said.
  • aykayk
    edited December 2015
    I had a lot to say about your observations of the last show you attended and how you are misinterpreting the rules taken there. But instead I'll boil it down to just this.

    The show organizers and the regulars there do not know all the people attending and just viewing the show. They do not know their skill level in controlling their dogs or their skill in reading dogs in general. They do not know how socialized and trained the dogs are around other dogs. The rules and the precautions that were taken might be overkill for some people and dogs, but better that than taking a chance that one dog could ruin the whole show for everybody.
    This breed is one of the only if not the only breed that it is acceptable for a male to show aggression towards another male while in the ring and not get disqualified.
    That's not true in the UKC. Dogs of any breed don't get disqualified for growling at another dog. Attacking another dog (landing a bite) does get them disqualified, but growling at another dog is not grounds for a DQ.

    UKC Conformation Rulebook, pg 8-9.
    http://res.ukcdogs.com/pdf/2011ConformationRulebookInsert.pdf
  • edited December 2015
    @ayk I agree about the part where you said growling at another dog is acceptable. The whole statement about aggression in a show ring I agree with.
    I guess my observation at the show was offensive? Sorry if I offended.
    I did see many times what I viewed as aggression towards other dogs. I can tell the signs enough to know when two dogs should not be allowed to meet.
    What I am just a bit surprised by is the amount of owners trying to say their Akita gets along with other Males or i should say stange dogs. I am simply saying that Akita are not dog on dog friendly and this is accepted in the Akita world. I actually did not expect any Akita owner to disagree with this statement. Non Akita owners should not be disagreeing with this because how the heck would they know?
    I also said that at the show I attended it was plain to see that handlers were taking steps to ensure that they didn't meet. I have also observed in other show settings handlers letting other breeds meet(touch noses and sniff) I also in honesty over heard a conversation of two dogs meeting at an Akita show that didn't go well. It was hard not to hear it cuz they was standing near to my seat.
    Honestly though the last place I expected to get disagreement on this about Akita was here. It didn't sound like you disagree with me about that in your last statement ayk. But I gather you disagree with me about what I observed at the show I attended. You or someone else said that all shows have those rules. I have not attend lots of shows to know that. I just assumed the rules were there to keep dog fights from happening. And thought they was specific to Nihon Ken shows. I do stand by my view that with out those rules there would have been fights.
    I suppose in every breed community there are gonna be those who deny the temperament of the breed. BTW I was talking about the breed standard for Akita in AKC saying that they may be dog on dog aggressive. It's one of the if not the only breed that has that in it. I wasn't talking about official rules.

    To all:
    I also would like to point out. That I saw the signals in the video I posted. I knew Eiji as stressed. I knew Kenji was being a bully/dominating I can read many signals not that I am always right or that I know everything. I allowed it because I thought they could come to an agreement. So people thinking I don't know how to read my dogs or a dog at all...well that's not true. I can tell when two dogs are about to fight. I can tell if one is scared. I can see when they are stressed. Or sad. Or even depressed. I just don't always know what to do about it.

    Also lots of people are judging Kenji based on one video of one conversation he had with Eiji. Kenji was being a bully at the time. But he is not always like that. He don't do that to Mars or Tachi and he did not do that to Eiji before. The video I shared was me attempting to let them figure things out in a safe way. It didn't work. Kenji is calm and consistent and loving with Mars. He don't take toys or bones from Mars he shares a water bowl with Mars. Never tells Mars he can't drink. He don't get upset if I pet Mars first. He romps and plays and even gives his belly to Mars. Kenji is not a bad dog. He is just your average Akita. The fact that he don't get along with Eiji don't make him a bad dog. These things are to be expected when you own multiple Male Akita.

    This tread is getting off subject here and there. I didn't start a new thread when the fight happened because I figured the back story would be good to have in the same thread. I am saying that just because Kenji and Eiji are not getting along does not make me a bad owner or Kenji a bad dog. This happens to the best owners. I was just looking for advice on how to handle it. In the end I am going to do what one of my breeders suggested and keep them in pairs. It's not necessary for Kenji and Eiji to get along. They don't hate each other. They don't fence fight at all. They sleep next to each other at the gate. They could probably share a room for several minutes before anything happens. They just won't be. Better safe then sorry. Thanks to all for contributing. :)
  • She said growling at another dog at a show was not a DQ, not that it was acceptable. Aggressive dogs at dogshows is never acceptable.
  • aykayk
    edited December 2015
    The thing is, you're using what you saw at the show and projecting your ideals about male-male aggression upon the dogs there. You're immediately disregarding alternative reasons for why dogs were acting the way they were.

    For instance, I know for a fact that one of the "aggressive" JA males at the show does not limit his aggression to just males. I've walked with him with my intact female Poongsan for several weekends last year. The dog does tongue flicks (stresses) and resorts to "the best defense is an offense". Lots of Asian breeds do this when uncertain.

    I also know for a fact that another of the "aggressive" JA males at the show, an import from Japan, lives perfectly fine with another intact JA male at home. It's not a 3 dog household, but it's a household that don't have conflicts even after the males aged out. How a dog behaves outside of their home doesn't always translate to how they behave within their home.

    For a third JA male snarking while in his crate, there was his female housemate that was in heat crated right next to him. At one time, he, the female in heat, and another intact male JA were in the same ring. ANY male dog of ANY breed would be possessive of a female in heat. It's only due to intensive ring socialization and training that this is controlled.
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