@MapleTwinkie and @shibamistress According to the standard the ears are supposed to follow the line with the neck, not to forward and not strait up, I will have to take a picture and upload it, so I can share, but Ares actually are right where they should be, as far as which way they are pointed. I am not sure about the how far apart statement you made. His pedigree shows he is not mixed. He is not an AKIHO quality. I have heard that it takes from two to five years to get the head to full size, and when they grow there are stages where they look gangly, and that some breeders don't even bother to show their JA till 5yrs old, Ares is only 13 months old. His head will still fill out, his chest will get wider, he may still grow another inch, and his muzzle will get likely widen, I have pictures of his grandparents and parents I can post later. I guess a person with some imagination could see lots of different types of dogs or claim to see "mixed signs" if you do the math 1992 till now is 20 years even if each set of parents were 5 years old at conception they would still be born 5years after the split. This is why the pedigree is important. You could be correct about his features, idk but he most definitely is not mixed that has been proven. That being said I would like for some experience people like @Loren_egland or @*Jackburton* to tell me where Ares falls short of standard. I will be happy to post more pictures if needed, it is hard for an amateur to take proper pictures. I will get off my phone and on the computer and post some more. I need to weight him and get his height, I bought some yard sticks today. But I been working a lot. I my self think that Ares is not a perfect JA. I do know that he is not a tweenie. That has been establish early in this thread. Even by the standards of which 25 percent is except able. If Ares lines have AA in them it is probably 6 generations back now. So by every groups and every kennel except AKIHO or maybe JKC he is full JA. But that is because he was registered AKC. But see that goes to prove my point from early on in this thread, there would be no question if he were mixed or not, if he were any other registry then AKC. This is why Ares is the perfect candidate to prove that point. I would like to here about Ares flaws, from people on here that have good experience and maybe even have judged before. This thread will likely be hear for years, and when Ares reaches 5 yrs old I will post picture then also. The more questions I ask the more I learn.
WOW, what a long thread. I am not a breeder nor do I show dogs. As a lay pet owner, I know I have an AA. When people who know nothing about it ask, I say she is an Akita. But, if the person is Japanese, or seems confused in some way; I say she is "an American Akita." For my point of view they are so so different, I'm confused about the fuss. But, again, not my battle. When I look into her linage, the show champions she comes from all look like AAs to me. Clearly from a completely ignorant of the topic view point, I am pro-split. Confusing.
Located in Florida, they have a web page, I will have 2 find the link & post it later. If u go 2 their page Ares name was Musashi the puppy that moved 2 Bettendorf on the previous litter/puppy page.
The articles tha @loren_egland has on his sight that he recommended reading, are quite good, I would recommend them as a must read for this thread. But I would also recommend doing it on a phone. Until loren gets his sight fixed. The best one was about the beginning when they first decided to split the breed and why. Very cool.
Couple things here. First I wouldn't qualify myself to judge Japanese Akitas. Until, Kaede, I've never been to a show or in a show ring. For those of you that have seen me at the Akiho shows, I prefer to take photos of the dogs than to show them.
Rather than point out faults in Ares, I'm going to point out the things that I feel will mature over time. Japanese Akitas tend to fill-out at a slower rater than the American counter part. Our dogs tend to be in the teen-adult phase all the way in to year 2.5-3 and later in some cases.
Ares' head: People are looking at the photos and picking up on the size of his snout vs his ear set. As he ages Ares face will fill into his ears. The distance between the two ears will not change but the head around it will. The "cheeks" will should begin to develop and thus the snout will not be as pronounced.
When looking at the head of a JA vs that of a AA I used this quote to help me "The body is more square, while the American Akita is longer than it is taller. It is not uncommon for an American Akita to significantly outweigh a Japanese Akita. Conversely, the head proportion of the Japanese Akita is 50/50 compared to 40/60 in the American Akita" - In the photo of Ares looking forward, the illusion is that his snot is long. When you look at the video and the photo of him playing with the shiba you can see that it is of normal length. He just needs to grow into it.
His stance in the front is too narrow right now. This will correct when he fills in and his chest expands. Going into the super picky, Urajiro is not present on the bridge of the snout. <----- most reds do not have this either. "to them it's like leather bucket seats." (movie quote).
Anyway I think I covered it. I can't really tell the stance from the photos. The big point is that all dogs have faults but it isn't really fair to judge them until they have matured.
I mentioned old european dogs early in this topic. Let me clear that comment up. Sometimes in the akitas from eastern europe mainly, you'll notice that the great-grandparents, in the pedigree are, from pre-1998 (not 92) stock. Now you are right, that is over 20 years ago and this issue is becoming less and less as the years go on. However this leads to a certain look that isn't present with dogs who were recently imported into those countries. I don't know the import date
I mentioned old european dogs early in this topic. Let me clear that comment up. Sometimes in the akitas from eastern europe mainly, you'll notice that the great-grandparents, in the pedigree are, from pre-1998 (not 92) stock. Now you are right, that is over 20 years ago and this issue is becoming less and less as the years go on. However this leads to a certain look that isn't present with dogs who were recently imported into those countries.
So lets look at your pedigree: (If you or anyone gets offended by this please remove it)
Working off of Anekuroro Halne Wzgorze this is what I find:
Kokusai Halne Wzgórze - Red --> Kaishi Go Shichimen Kensha (import Japan) contains Meiyosho winner Awa Aihime Go Musashi Aiwa --> Iczczite Halne Wzgórze (born Poland) contains imports Japan and from US. US dog was from jp import.
At this point Thayla Halne Wzgórze appears. 1994 Poland and is of mix stock. IMO this dog got placed into the FCI Akita Inu breed. Kawakita Fuji Matricaria Will appear in the pedigree of other relatives.
Isamashii's Diamond To Jolanta - Red --> Combo of Japanese imports and other european stock. Kawakita Fuji is in this part of the pedigree and is part of Thayla Halne Wzgórze pedigree. Kawakita Fuji is pre FCI split stock.
So this is breakdown of Ares' father. Lots of japanese imports in here. 1 Meiyosho winner maybe more. 1 blend (my guess per FCI placement)
Working off a Kawasemi Halne Wzgórze:
Ikiiki Ninki No Aru Halne Wzgorze Red Poland ---> sire and dam products of japanese imports. Noteworthy kennels Miyagi Kozaki and Hanamaki Azumasou and Yamagata Kagami
Niagara Mago Kakusui Halne Wzgórze Red Poland ---> Thayla Halne Wzgórze is part of this pedigree. There is also a whole lot of imported dogs as well.
I know this is super long winded and dry. The point I'm making is that instead of generations of un-interrupted Japanese stocks there is only 18 years (1994-2012) in this case. Does this make this dog or even better would I consider this dog a blend? The answer is no. This is the path that JKC took to get their split of the ground. They defined the breed along with the grace period.
@JackBurton Thayla Halne Wzgórze, this dog is not on the pedigree, how many generations back is that? This is the info I have been looking for. If I give u an email address would u be able to share that info with me better? Can you get a photo of this dog? Sorry I keep editing this I am just kinda excited to get extra data on Ares.
This is a public database out of europe. It isn't checked like the JACA database so it may not be 100%. It's pretty good though. Thayla shows up 1 generation after your pedigree ends.
"the head proportion of the Japanese Akita is 50/50 compared to 40/60 in the American Akita"
I am aware that the muzzle length to length of skull is a ratio of 2:3 (or 40/60) in the AKC Akita Standard. However, I have never seen any standard that says the same ratio is 1:1 (or 50/50,) including the FCI Akita standard. I don't recall seeing this ratio in either the AKIHO, AKIKYO, or NIPPO standards.
@T_Dog so when you look at Thayla's entry you will see Kawakita Fuji Matricaria and you'll see lots of dogs from the UK and USA in there. You'll even find an old Northlands' Akita in there. Ares' and Loren's dogs are distant relatives.
So the more correct statement is that Kawakita Fuji was of pre-1998 unsplit stock with relatives in the US. Placed into the FCI Akita (which Loren described in his article) from that breeding Thayla was born.
It is important to note that Aurora's Kumamoto Go is a post 1992 import from Japan.
What is the message to take away from this? Simply Thayla is an example of how the FCI split was handled. I hope this explains how I reached that conclusion.
Loren I was asked to describe how I would evaluate Ares. Since I am not a judge, I wanted to use a quote from an article that I like to read regarding the JA.
You are correct the above, is not found in the standards sited. It was mearly quoted to help explain.
Comments
@MapleTwinkie and @shibamistress
According to the standard the ears are supposed to follow the line with the neck, not to forward and not strait up, I will have to take a picture and upload it, so I can share, but Ares actually are right where they should be, as far as which way they are pointed. I am not sure about the how far apart statement you made. His pedigree shows he is not mixed. He is not an AKIHO quality. I have heard that it takes from two to five years to get the head to full size, and when they grow there are stages where they look gangly, and that some breeders don't even bother to show their JA till 5yrs old, Ares is only 13 months old. His head will still fill out, his chest will get wider, he may still grow another inch, and his muzzle will get likely widen, I have pictures of his grandparents and parents I can post later. I guess a person with some imagination could see lots of different types of dogs or claim to see "mixed signs" if you do the math 1992 till now is 20 years even if each set of parents were 5 years old at conception they would still be born 5years after the split. This is why the pedigree is important. You could be correct about his features, idk but he most definitely is not mixed that has been proven. That being said I would like for some experience people like @Loren_egland or @*Jackburton* to tell me where Ares falls short of standard. I will be happy to post more pictures if needed, it is hard for an amateur to take proper pictures. I will get off my phone and on the computer and post some more. I need to weight him and get his height, I bought some yard sticks today. But I been working a lot. I my self think that Ares is not a perfect JA. I do know that he is not a tweenie. That has been establish early in this thread. Even by the standards of which 25 percent is except able. If Ares lines have AA in them it is probably 6 generations back now. So by every groups and every kennel except AKIHO or maybe JKC he is full JA. But that is because he was registered AKC. But see that goes to prove my point from early on in this thread, there would be no question if he were mixed or not, if he were any other registry then AKC. This is why Ares is the perfect candidate to prove that point. I would like to here about Ares flaws, from people on here that have good experience and maybe even have judged before. This thread will likely be hear for years, and when Ares reaches 5 yrs old I will post picture then also. The more questions I ask the more I learn.
Here is a video you can see a lot more in video, but still frames do have advantages.
ARES MOM
ARES DAD
ARES GRANDMA
ARES MOMS, MOM, GREAT GRANDMA
ARES GRANDPA
If u go 2 their page Ares name was Musashi the puppy that moved 2 Bettendorf on the previous litter/puppy page.
Rather than point out faults in Ares, I'm going to point out the things that I feel will mature over time. Japanese Akitas tend to fill-out at a slower rater than the American counter part. Our dogs tend to be in the teen-adult phase all the way in to year 2.5-3 and later in some cases.
Ares' head: People are looking at the photos and picking up on the size of his snout vs his ear set. As he ages Ares face will fill into his ears. The distance between the two ears will not change but the head around it will. The "cheeks" will should begin to develop and thus the snout will not be as pronounced.
When looking at the head of a JA vs that of a AA I used this quote to help me "The body is more square, while the American Akita is longer than it is taller. It is not uncommon for an American Akita to significantly outweigh a Japanese Akita. Conversely, the head proportion of the Japanese Akita is 50/50 compared to 40/60 in the American Akita" - In the photo of Ares looking forward, the illusion is that his snot is long. When you look at the video and the photo of him playing with the shiba you can see that it is of normal length. He just needs to grow into it.
His stance in the front is too narrow right now. This will correct when he fills in and his chest expands. Going into the super picky, Urajiro is not present on the bridge of the snout. <----- most reds do not have this either. "to them it's like leather bucket seats." (movie quote).
Anyway I think I covered it. I can't really tell the stance from the photos. The big point is that all dogs have faults but it isn't really fair to judge them until they have matured.
I mentioned old european dogs early in this topic. Let me clear that comment up. Sometimes in the akitas from eastern europe mainly, you'll notice that the great-grandparents, in the pedigree are, from pre-1998 (not 92) stock. Now you are right, that is over 20 years ago and this issue is becoming less and less as the years go on. However this leads to a certain look that isn't present with dogs who were recently imported into those countries. I don't know the import date
So lets look at your pedigree: (If you or anyone gets offended by this please remove it)
Working off of Anekuroro Halne Wzgorze this is what I find:
Kokusai Halne Wzgórze - Red --> Kaishi Go Shichimen Kensha (import Japan) contains Meiyosho winner Awa Aihime Go Musashi Aiwa
--> Iczczite Halne Wzgórze (born Poland) contains imports Japan and from US. US dog was from jp import.
At this point Thayla Halne Wzgórze appears. 1994 Poland and is of mix stock. IMO this dog got placed into the FCI Akita Inu breed. Kawakita Fuji Matricaria Will appear in the pedigree of other relatives.
Isamashii's Diamond To Jolanta - Red --> Combo of Japanese imports and other european stock. Kawakita Fuji is in this part of the pedigree and is part of Thayla Halne Wzgórze pedigree. Kawakita Fuji is pre FCI split stock.
So this is breakdown of Ares' father. Lots of japanese imports in here. 1 Meiyosho winner maybe more. 1 blend (my guess per FCI placement)
Working off a Kawasemi Halne Wzgórze:
Ikiiki Ninki No Aru Halne Wzgorze Red Poland ---> sire and dam products of japanese imports. Noteworthy kennels Miyagi Kozaki and Hanamaki Azumasou and Yamagata Kagami
Niagara Mago Kakusui Halne Wzgórze Red Poland ---> Thayla Halne Wzgórze is part of this pedigree. There is also a whole lot of imported dogs as well.
I know this is super long winded and dry. The point I'm making is that instead of generations of un-interrupted Japanese stocks there is only 18 years (1994-2012) in this case. Does this make this dog or even better would I consider this dog a blend? The answer is no. This is the path that JKC took to get their split of the ground. They defined the breed along with the grace period.
This is a public database out of europe. It isn't checked like the JACA database so it may not be 100%. It's pretty good though. Thayla shows up 1 generation after your pedigree ends.
I am aware that the muzzle length to length of skull is a ratio of 2:3 (or 40/60) in the AKC Akita Standard. However, I have never seen any standard that says the same ratio is 1:1 (or 50/50,) including the FCI Akita standard. I don't recall seeing this ratio in either the AKIHO, AKIKYO, or NIPPO standards.
So the more correct statement is that Kawakita Fuji was of pre-1998 unsplit stock with relatives in the US. Placed into the FCI Akita (which Loren described in his article) from that breeding Thayla was born.
It is important to note that Aurora's Kumamoto Go is a post 1992 import from Japan.
What is the message to take away from this? Simply Thayla is an example of how the FCI split was handled. I hope this explains how I reached that conclusion.
You are correct the above, is not found in the standards sited. It was mearly quoted to help explain.