It's only due to intensive ring socialization and training that this is controlled.
And at any given show you will see dogs at all ends of the spectrum, because everyone is at a different point in their individual training and socialization progress.
She said growling at another dog at a show was not a DQ, not that it was acceptable. Aggressive dogs at dogshows is never acceptable.
It depends on the UKC venue. In southern California at regular UKC shows, a dog that growls but is corrected and under the control of the handler will get forgiven by most exhibitors.
Elsewhere, "under control" doesn't seem to matter. I've seen exhibitors complaining high and low about a growling dog.
Ayk I never pointed out any specific dog. Or instance. Never gave any details of anything I observed. If any of you thought I was talking about a dog you know or insulting any dog there. That is not my intention. I only stated that there was dog on dog aggression or tentions. It was in the air. I didn't place any fault on any dog or handler. In fact most the things you just mentioned, ayk I didn't even see. I only brought it up to illustrate that this is just how Akita are. There are many possible reasons for the behavior. I agree with that.
I know better then most how, and that two male Akita can co exist. Though my own life experience I am learning that having three males in the same home changes the dynamics. It's possible that in numbers of three or more things get more complicated and harder to manage. Alot because a two dog disagreement turns into a three dog fight. My experience with the Akita I have lived with also shows me that strange dogs are not safe around an Akita not to say that the Akita will always win, he could get hurt too. In my experience bringing an Akita to a dog park is very ignorant. Just one dog with the wrong attitude can anger an Akita no matter how nice that Akita is if you spend enough time at a dog park it will get in a fight and probably will hurt the other dog. The fact that Akita are dog on dog aggressive is not and should not be considered a fault. That's why it's in the AKC standard. It's part of what they are. I am actually disappointed that other kennel clubs have not put it in their standard; because it is a part of their temperament. When buying an Akita it should be expected. Even through breeders have been trying to breed this out. It is still there. It is in their genetics. It can be managed. There are success story's out there of Akita living with other dogs and playing nice with other dogs. I have a couple success story's myself about two Akita getting along and co existing. But its just bad judgment to try to lead anyone to believe that these dogs are just like any other dog. These dogs are far and away from normal dogs. These dogs are not first time owner dogs. These dogs are not good with strange children. But do well with children they grow up with. They have a terrible recall among other commands, especially compared to other breeds. They are independent and they like to be the top dog and can live with a dog that is OK with that. But not so much with another dog that wants top dog. These are NOT off leash dogs. These are the things that new buyers need to know. Not that fairy tail bs that it's all how you raise them crap. Many experienced owners who know how to train dogs, good owners, have experienced an Akita getting angry with another dog. Fact is its very likely that if you own an Akita no matter how knowledgeable and experienced the owner is. In that dogs life time, before its over. They WILL be pulling that dog off from another dog. To insinuate any differently to a potential buyer is irresponsible. I was fortunate my breeders made sure I knew what I was buying even after I told them I had already owned one.
I don't know who on here is a breeder and who is not. I don't know who's dog is who's at the show. I don't know many of your real names. Nothing I say is directed at any specific person or dog. I am speaking in general about the basic Temperament of the breed. I also know that I am talking to some experienced Akita owners. Not entirely sure which of you have Akita and which of you have Shiba or Kia. I know that many of you know more then me about the breed and about raising them. Many of the things I say is for people who don't know. I know most of you know the temperament of the Akita. I just think some are sugar coating it. Please don't think any of this is an attack on or directed specifically at any of you.
Here look at this simple video, its common knowledge. Its in books about Akita its in video all over youtube the Akita community not just here but world wide embraces this dogs temperament. They dont run from it or deny it like the pit bull community. I am not so ingnorent and inexperienced as some may think. The information is all over the place. When I say this stuff I am not cutting down the breed. There is no need to come to the breeds defence here. This is what they are genetically.
You are still really hung up on the Akita thing. You don't need to paste select quotes of Akita info, or link "Akita 101" videos, we get it.
But what you have is not a unique behavior for Akitas, nor limited to males. If you go back to your old thread about Ares at the dog park, it's the same stuff that leads to trouble - fear, stress, and inappropriate management. Add in adolescence and limited socialization, and you have a typical reaction for any dog. http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7605/my-j-akitas-aggression-any-advise-/p1
For now you should look past the breed stuff, and focus on your dogs as individuals. Do what you can to make each of them feel happy and safe, and your family as well. You are already on a great track with the kennel setup, but this is where a behaviorist can help you.
I was also at the JACA show, and I did not see any mentionable displays of aggression. Sure there was reactivity when strange dogs get too close, including from my own dogs - neither of which is a male Akita.
"I know better then most" "Honestly though the last place I expected to get disagreement on this about Akita was here" "Non Akita owners should not be disagreeing with this because how the heck would they know?" " I have learned about Akita in the last almost 4 years" "I attended my first Akita dog show not long ago"
@T_Dog the reason you're having a difficult time is because you have this very strange obsession with thinking you have more experience or knowledge than everyone else, while spouting off about 'dominance', 'alphas', etc.
You need to step back and accept that most people here have a lot more experience with dogs than you. Many of us have strong backgrounds with dogs-- including breeding, competitive sports / obedience / showing, controlling and managing large packs of dogs, veterinary field, etc
You're too caught up thinking you're so great and know everything because you have 4 dogs who fight and need a labyrinth to prevent fights.
As far as I'm concerned a dog's personality is 50% genetics ( potential ), and the other 50% is what you do with that potential ( whether you shape/nurture them to be the best dog their genes will allow them to be, or you let them figure things out for themselves and damage said potential ). And lets face it, not all Akitas have the same genes. They are not all cookie cutter dogs. In all dog breeds theres going to be thousands of different personalities. But trust me when I say, no breeder has any business breeding if they are breeding aggressive or weak nerved dogs for the joy of it.
Honestly, you handicap yourself thinking because your dog are Akita, that its just destined for them to be aggressive. That to me, is giving up. Everywhere people describe Shiba as being aloof, difficult to train, not willing to please, etc. Do you think Sandra, Lindsay, or anyone trained their dogs to do the amazing things they do with that in mind? fuck no. They looked at their dogs. Said 'this is a dog'. Then proceeded to work with their dog. they used their dog's full potential and achieved more than just ribbons, titles, and fame, they worked hard and got an amazing bond with their dogs.
I have said many times that I don't know everything I have admitted many times that I was wrong on certain things. I have said more then once in this tread that many here know more about the breed and how to raise them then me. So either you missed that when you read my posts or your just being hostile. Either way it don't matter. Omgtain go get yourself three Male Akita and raise them. Then come back here and tell me how all your knowledge and training help and what great dogs you have raised. I am still waiting for someone with three Intact Adult Male Akita that live in the same house and don't fight. Where is this owner? I am in search of such and owner. Because only this owner can truely help me. Otherwise is just others projecting their theory on to me, while I take all the risk. I am sorry but when you say an Akita is just a dog and like any other dog you lost me. When you said you don't live with an Akita you lost me further. Also I own a Shiba so I am acutely aware of the huge difference between the breed. You call the theory I have been studying old and outdated. You could be right. But the people who support the theory I have been studying say you are humanizing you dogs. While I did read some of but not all of the links that Brad posted in his thread that was posted above. The have not ruled that out and I need to study it more.
You think that because I have not just jumped on board with your advice that I think I know it all. That's just you trying to insult me. The fact is that I am in control of what happens with my dogs and if I listen to you and it don't work. Who loses. I lose. My dogs lose. So if you looking for someone to blindly follow your instructions that's not me.
If you want to experiment your theorys on Akita go buy three of your own and prove me wrong.
Ares may have not been a dog park dog. Most Akita are not. But him and Kenji had a great relationship. Him and Tachi(shiba) had a great Relationship. Ares May he Rest in Peace was not a bad dog. He was your average Akita. So omgtain don't bother telling me what an average Akita is like till you have raised a few for yourself.
Sorry if that sounds blunt or hostile or rude. But your comment was not nice.
Besides between your own dogs - what socialisation do you do with your dogs? My father in law was heavily involved with the American Akita breed many years ago when the breed was new to Australia. He had at one stage , 8 adult Akita (and an intact male Shiba and a Basenji). Now- the males did not all get along- but they were never given the opportunity to 'sort it out' or cause stress to eachother- this was unacceptable. Not all dogs will get along and that can't be expected to, but there still needs to be boundaries and appropriate management in place. Extra work to be put in to ensure that they are not allowed to be aggressive or intolerant. My father in law showed multiple intact male (and female) Akitas, not once has he ever said that aggressive behaviour displayed was tolerated because they are Akitas. Behaviour like this is NOT typical of the breed- aggressive Akitas here in AUS will not get awarded,the judge will not accept that in the ring. It is not in the breed standard to be aggressive. I show my adult female JAI, and have seen the only male JAI in the state here at shows - he displayed this aggressionand tension you described- not because he is a Japanese Akita, but because he was stressed and is a dog that grew up in a kennel in Japan and had no socialisation. And just because he was bred in Japan,does not mean that's how he should act. He is unsound and unsafe. He has been in the ring once in 12 months and the judge couldn't get near him-the judge did not accept this behaviour as being the breed ( it's NOT), and he was non-awarded. Our JA is a dream in the ring, the male American Akitas we know and watch in the ring have never displayed the behaviour you say is normal and accepted in the ring.
There you go again. Why do I need to have 3 akita? What would that prove ? I don't want to get 3 akita and live in harmony just to prove you wrong. It is already very clear that I raise dogs differently than you-- I get my dogs 2 years apart so I can achieve their full potential and dedicate everything I can to them while they are growing and learning the world around them. I will then go to a reputable breeder who matches the personality of their puppies to my dogs. As someone who has managed 30+ dogs on a daily basis, I know how important it is to match their personalities and how to integrate dogs into packs. If a dog in introduced into the pack on bad terms that experience is with all the dogs for the rest of their lives. If I let a new dog into our (established) pack, if its a puppy it will roll over and lick all the other dog's muzzles, appeasement behaviors. These are ANNOYING to adult dogs, not to mention if the puppy jumps on them, nips / bites them, normal puppy stuff. Many of the adult dogs will turn away, walk away, try to get far from the puppy. if i don't intervene then the puppy thinks it can get away with that bullshit and the adult dog loses its trust in me to protect them. Then once that puppy gets larger, the adult dog will defend itself with teeth.
Either way T_dog, you still said the things I quoted. You can't just backpedal and say you've said you were wrong before-- because just yesterday you claimed to know more than most of us.
Anyways. When you find the person with 3 male akita, lmk how much they helped you. Because I doubt you'll learn diddly squat. Theres no special trick, theres no certain way, this isn't harry potter, you won't suddenly be enlightened. I'm not the only person telling you this, either.
Omgtain control yourself. I did say I know more then most about how to have two male Akita in the same home. As I have successfully done it twice. My methods may not be the same as yours. But twice now I have raise a set of Male Akita that get along and are happy together. You twist my words to try and make that mean I said I know more then most people here. Well I can say this. I have more Akita experience then you. I know better then you what its like to live with multiple Male Akita.
Koyuki. I only stated what I have read in books and the information that is all over the place. That says these dog have a predisposition to be dog on dog aggressive. I never stated how much aggression would be acceptable in a ring. Ofcourse to much will get a dog disqualified. Ofcourse there are many different reasons for showing aggression which as was pointed out above is a very vague word. I only stated that AKC has it in their standard and that many educated experienced owners and breeders will acknowledge this is true. I also said there are those who deny it in every group. But I appreciate you acknowledged that not all Akita get along. I am sure your father in law was a great owner and the fact that those dogs decided not to like each other don't make him any less talented as an owner. I also am not giving them an opportunity to sort it out. I tried a couple times and I did it as safety as possible. But came to the conclusion that they will likely hurt each other if I continued. My experience with Ares at the dog park taught me that is no place to take an Akita to socialize. I believe there is good reason that experienced owners sag no off leash walking and its not just poor recall. If an Akita runs into a "bully" I know first hand what happens. And imo omgtain only shows his ignorance of the breed if he thinks it will be any different for him when or if he or she ever brings his own Akita to a dog park.
I believe a quiet growl or a little teeth bearing might slide by. But out right vicious acts will not.
I know there must be breeders on here who own 3+ intact male Akita. The fact is it must be very hard to find a set of three that all get along.
Omgtain just get one. Pick your best puppy. Time it how ever you want. Get back to me when HE is 11months old intact and getting along with all the dogs in your daycare. Or even just in your home. Let me know how he does at the dog park and on off leash walks with all his expert training. I look forward to reading about your experience.
I agree that dog parks are not the best place a lot of the time for socialisation,we have 5 Shiba and a JAS so avoid dog parks here due to ignorant and uneducated owners,BUT that is not the only place and way to socialise a dog. Obeduence training is great as it is controlled, so is meeting with well behaved dogs on leash etc. We don't take ours to dog parks, but we take them everywhere else .
@Omgtain Same reason you care about mine I guess. Just that you have very limited experience with Akita and even as educated as you are. "You don't know what you don't know" about Akita. But I do know what you don't know. Not more then you. Just different things. Cuz I have actually raised 4 of them. While I am not perfect and I don't know everything. I do know that an Akita is not like any other dog. They don't act like them think like them or behave like them. Some Things that work on normal dogs don't work for Akita. No matter how well you train your Akita I promise you if you take him to a park after 11 months old he will fight the first "bully" he meets. Cuz Akita don't take that shit. Please tag me in your posts when your Akita reaches that age.
@Koyuki. Yes. I did the dog classes and I also used other family members dogs. I only took Kenji to the park a few times. We left the minute a pit bull or charpai or any other dog that was bred to fight in the past arrived as they are the "bully's". I am being facetious about the "bully" part. What I mean is dominating dogs in all the vague and many ways that dogs do it... Opps being facetious again lol Kenji never had any problems at the dog park. But Ares went everyday till about 11 months old. After a few disagreements. I call them that cuz no dog ever need stiched up and there was no blood. Ares was no longer able to go to the park. Someone told me in a thread about Ares long ago. I will never forget... Cuz its when I realized something important about the breed. "Everyone thinks that their Akita is the one Akita that will get along in the dog park that theirs is the one special one that will be the exception." Maybe not exact words but it could be found in my past threads.
That sticks with me till this day. Another one. "Would your Akita be labeled aggressive if you never took him to the park?" Answer no. Because Ares gets along great with his pack. Being Kenji and Tachi and all my brothers dogs.
My brother had three dogs before his divorce where custody of two went to his x wife. He had a Doberman a German Shepard and a yellow lab. Kenji visited them a lot as a puppy. Kenji also lived with the Doberman while my brother got a new house during his divorce. All my brothers dogs were good balanced obediant dogs. Kenji got lots of socialization. Eiji has not been socialized accept for in conformation classes once a week usually and his pack and a couple visits with the Doberman. Mars has had no socialization. But I don't plan on him being around any other dog besides Kenji and Tachi at this point.
t_dog. in the videos i've seen your dogs were the bullys lol. if your dogs ever behaved that way to my dogs, i'd beat them. if i had a gun, i'd shoot them. i don't tolerate dogs being assholes to mine. my dog isn't going to develop fear or aggression because of your dog. my dogs look to me to protect them, and thats what i do. i've stopped caring about other peoples dogs. if your kid scared my kid, oh its on.
and perhaps that is your problem ? your dogs were never socialized? what the ?
i think its silly that you say akita are like no other dog. so.. tell me.. how many other of the hundreds of dog breeds have you had? LOL that is why i can't respect you. an akita is a dog. get over it. its nothing special.
Those videos again were after the change. See Akita go through a change between 9 and 11 months old and don't grow out of it till just around 2 years old. Ares had decided to go on offence. He had been in a few disagreements at the park and after the switch that's what he was doing. I hope your as brave as I am when all your education don't stop this from happening to you. I hope your brave enough to post your failures on this forum. BTW the 9-11 month change is discussed in my past threads too. Back when the people of the forum educated me about the temperament of an Akita. Hell has no fury like an angry Akita. When you have raised one and your talking on line a few years from now about the first time your Akita gets angry at another dog you can quote me. I won't mind. See now you got me on a roll. You bring out the smart ass in me.
-shrug- in all your previous threads, and in this one, people told you that absolute / definitive facts are wrong. and then they stop replying because they realize that you don't understand lol. still you go on like you know everything, zzz.
OK just let me know when your male Akita reaches 11 months old. I look forward to hearing about how social he is and how he spends his days in your daycare. If I am wrong then the people who taught me in the past threads must be wrong too. The books I have read that told me these things they must be wrong too. All the smart veterinarians and authors must all be wrong. Cuz yours is the only way. The number one rated Akita book Treasure of Japan simply must be wrong. You should refrain from giving out advice on this forum till you have actually raised an Akita.
if you havent noticed, this isnt an akita forum, lol. all anyone said was your dogs weren't fit for such social interactions. and now we know why.
"He had a Doberman a German Shepard and a yellow lab. Kenji visited them a lot as a puppy. Kenji also lived with the Doberman while my brother got a new house during his divorce. All my brothers dogs were good balanced obediant [sic] dogs. Kenji got lots of socialization. Eiji has not been socialized accept [sic] for in conformation classes once a week usually and his pack and a couple visits with the Doberman. Mars has had no socialization."
you set your dogs up for failure. good job. xD
so yeah i agree i would never take your dogs to dog parks or dog day cares. especially since you see no need to socialize your dogs. i on the other hand love to attend shows, events, group meetings, hikes, classes etc and so my dogs have had proper training to do so. does it make your dogs bad dogs if they can't do that? no. especially if they aren't enjoying themselves and are always on the offensive. but you made them that way.
You have no idea what your talking about. There you go again talking about other dogs after admitting that you beat your dogs for acting in certain ways. I don't suggest you get an Akita.
I socialized Ares and Kenji and I noticed that Ares only had problems outside the pack. You can take your socialization and wear it as a hat. When you raise your first Akita and you finally realize that even if you do everything right you will still find yourself pulling your angry Akita off from another dog. Even as perfect as you are. I just hope when the day comes for you to eat crow you fill your plate and tag me so I can watch you eat it.
Lol hey you taught me how to miss quote someone and to twist words. It's probably best we stop this exchange now. Nothing good will come of it anyways.
Just one more little thing tho omgtain. Labs and boxers and Golden's. They don't need near as much training and special attention to turn into good dogs. But Pitbulls and Akita and other dogs that were bred to fight at some point in history. They do need more attention. You don't see the problems nearly as much in other breeds. Akita require well trained owner to achieve what you expect. You said I should be able to take my Akita to the dog park. Try opening a thread and asking Akita owners if they take their dogs to the park. You will hear many reasons for the answer NO. But then ask yourself why can all the labs and Golden's and poodles and boxers and many other breeds go to the park everyday and not hurt another dog. Fact is all reasons to not go to the dog park have a root. The root is because they don't want their Akita to get in a fight. These dogs are not the social butterfly you think they can be. No matter how much you know. Only owning an Akita will teach you this.
never told you that you should be able to take your dogs to the dog park.
i've kicked out more labs, goldens, boxers, etc from my dog daycare than i have pit bulls.
they also think their dog is super special, that goldens and labs and whatnot are just good dogs because of their breed. so they don't bother to train or socialize them. aka the same thing as you, you think its impossible because you have an akita so you don't even try.
if you or your dogs dont enjoy dog parks or daycare, then i don't want you there. i happen to enjoy having my dogs off leash, running, peeing, playing with other dogs. i dont care about rules, i take treats with me and work on their training. all dog parks also say no balls / toys because dogs can fight over them yet people still do it.
again, i dont care what a dogs breed is. it isnt my job to label dogs based on breed. when you bring your dog to my daycare i assess it as a clean slate with no ill intentions. each dog is an individual. honestly you might as well say all muslims are part of ISIS.
I think one of the problems is the language I see in this thread. The emphasis of these traits being put on the breed rather than the individual dogs. What I see people telling you is to not attribute it to your three dogs being Akita, but rather... just how your dogs are. You consistently bring up that it's an 'Akita' thing, instead, as if the word is a scapegoat. Things like implying that Akita are 'allowed' to be aggressive.
Many NK breeds are reputed to be reactive. Not recommended off leash. Push boundaries. Difficult to train. We are all warned to keep an eye on our dogs. These aren't rules dictating how your dog will be, just traits the breed is known for. So, what then? Choosing a well balanced puppy helps -- genetics can play a role, after all. But as for the traits? Many owners use it as a guide on what to train. They work with it, and condition their dogs as best they can so their dogs can be safe and happy.
Not all dogs are dog park dogs... not because their breed is aggressive, but because they, as a dog, can get stressed in certain situations. Or they can be reactive to rude dogs. Many reasons. So! Socialization in controlled environments, then. And constantly -- not just till they are 5 months or whatever. For life. Not just with the same familiar dogs all the time, but with strange dogs, too.... and good role model dogs. Socialization won't guarantee your pup will be a social butterfly or get along with dogs as they mature, but it will be doing everything within your power to set them up for success.
Not all dogs will get along, either. They just rub one another the wrong way. So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in. Maybe they'll have to be separated their entire life, or get rehomed. Sometimes it's just best that way. But at least you know you tried everything you could.
That was my only point. Akita are predispositioned to these certain things. It seems like I am stuck on it cuz a certain someone disagreed with me on that point and wouldn't conceed that Akita and Shiba and I have not owned other NK to say. That they are predispositioned to act these ways. I agree that I need to focus on my individual dogs. But I haven't even got my next book in the mail yet. But thanks for acknowledging that I am right about the general temperament of the Akita and a few other things. Thanks
I agree that I need to focus on my individual dogs. But I haven't even got my next book in the mail yet. But thanks for acknowledging that I am right about the general temperament of the Akita and a few other things. Thanks
Well, I think temperament is a per-dog sort of deal. Not something to be attributed to the Akita as a breed. Some dogs can be pretty passive goofballs, some really excitable and easily stressed. We have to manage our dogs' temperaments on a dog-to-dog basis, not a general breed characterization. This is where choosing a well balanced puppy has the most impact, I think.
Comments
Elsewhere, "under control" doesn't seem to matter. I've seen exhibitors complaining high and low about a growling dog.
I know better then most how, and that two male Akita can co exist. Though my own life experience I am learning that having three males in the same home changes the dynamics. It's possible that in numbers of three or more things get more complicated and harder to manage. Alot because a two dog disagreement turns into a three dog fight.
My experience with the Akita I have lived with also shows me that strange dogs are not safe around an Akita not to say that the Akita will always win, he could get hurt too. In my experience bringing an Akita to a dog park is very ignorant. Just one dog with the wrong attitude can anger an Akita no matter how nice that Akita is if you spend enough time at a dog park it will get in a fight and probably will hurt the other dog. The fact that Akita are dog on dog aggressive is not and should not be considered a fault. That's why it's in the AKC standard. It's part of what they are. I am actually disappointed that other kennel clubs have not put it in their standard; because it is a part of their temperament. When buying an Akita it should be expected. Even through breeders have been trying to breed this out. It is still there. It is in their genetics. It can be managed. There are success story's out there of Akita living with other dogs and playing nice with other dogs. I have a couple success story's myself about two Akita getting along and co existing. But its just bad judgment to try to lead anyone to believe that these dogs are just like any other dog. These dogs are far and away from normal dogs. These dogs are not first time owner dogs. These dogs are not good with strange children. But do well with children they grow up with. They have a terrible recall among other commands, especially compared to other breeds. They are independent and they like to be the top dog and can live with a dog that is OK with that. But not so much with another dog that wants top dog. These are NOT off leash dogs. These are the things that new buyers need to know. Not that fairy tail bs that it's all how you raise them crap. Many experienced owners who know how to train dogs, good owners, have experienced an Akita getting angry with another dog. Fact is its very likely that if you own an Akita no matter how knowledgeable and experienced the owner is. In that dogs life time, before its over. They WILL be pulling that dog off from another dog. To insinuate any differently to a potential buyer is irresponsible. I was fortunate my breeders made sure I knew what I was buying even after I told them I had already owned one.
I don't know who on here is a breeder and who is not. I don't know who's dog is who's at the show. I don't know many of your real names. Nothing I say is directed at any specific person or dog. I am speaking in general about the basic Temperament of the breed. I also know that I am talking to some experienced Akita owners. Not entirely sure which of you have Akita and which of you have Shiba or Kia. I know that many of you know more then me about the breed and about raising them. Many of the things I say is for people who don't know. I know most of you know the temperament of the Akita. I just think some are sugar coating it. Please don't think any of this is an attack on or directed specifically at any of you.
Here look at this simple video, its common knowledge. Its in books about Akita its in video all over youtube the Akita community not just here but world wide embraces this dogs temperament. They dont run from it or deny it like the pit bull community. I am not so ingnorent and inexperienced as some may think. The information is all over the place. When I say this stuff I am not cutting down the breed. There is no need to come to the breeds defence here. This is what they are genetically.
But what you have is not a unique behavior for Akitas, nor limited to males. If you go back to your old thread about Ares at the dog park, it's the same stuff that leads to trouble - fear, stress, and inappropriate management. Add in adolescence and limited socialization, and you have a typical reaction for any dog. http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/7605/my-j-akitas-aggression-any-advise-/p1
For now you should look past the breed stuff, and focus on your dogs as individuals. Do what you can to make each of them feel happy and safe, and your family as well. You are already on a great track with the kennel setup, but this is where a behaviorist can help you.
I was also at the JACA show, and I did not see any mentionable displays of aggression. Sure there was reactivity when strange dogs get too close, including from my own dogs - neither of which is a male Akita.
"Honestly though the last place I expected to get disagreement on this about Akita was here"
"Non Akita owners should not be disagreeing with this because how the heck would they know?"
" I have learned about Akita in the last almost 4 years"
"I attended my first Akita dog show not long ago"
@T_Dog the reason you're having a difficult time is because you have this very strange obsession with thinking you have more experience or knowledge than everyone else, while spouting off about 'dominance', 'alphas', etc.
You need to step back and accept that most people here have a lot more experience with dogs than you. Many of us have strong backgrounds with dogs-- including breeding, competitive sports / obedience / showing, controlling and managing large packs of dogs, veterinary field, etc
You're too caught up thinking you're so great and know everything because you have 4 dogs who fight and need a labyrinth to prevent fights.
As far as I'm concerned a dog's personality is 50% genetics ( potential ), and the other 50% is what you do with that potential ( whether you shape/nurture them to be the best dog their genes will allow them to be, or you let them figure things out for themselves and damage said potential ). And lets face it, not all Akitas have the same genes. They are not all cookie cutter dogs. In all dog breeds theres going to be thousands of different personalities. But trust me when I say, no breeder has any business breeding if they are breeding aggressive or weak nerved dogs for the joy of it.
Honestly, you handicap yourself thinking because your dog are Akita, that its just destined for them to be aggressive. That to me, is giving up.
Everywhere people describe Shiba as being aloof, difficult to train, not willing to please, etc. Do you think Sandra, Lindsay, or anyone trained their dogs to do the amazing things they do with that in mind?
fuck no. They looked at their dogs. Said 'this is a dog'. Then proceeded to work with their dog. they used their dog's full potential and achieved more than just ribbons, titles, and fame, they worked hard and got an amazing bond with their dogs.
You think that because I have not just jumped on board with your advice that I think I know it all. That's just you trying to insult me. The fact is that I am in control of what happens with my dogs and if I listen to you and it don't work. Who loses. I lose. My dogs lose. So if you looking for someone to blindly follow your instructions that's not me.
If you want to experiment your theorys on Akita go buy three of your own and prove me wrong.
Ares may have not been a dog park dog. Most Akita are not. But him and Kenji had a great relationship. Him and Tachi(shiba) had a great Relationship. Ares May he Rest in Peace was not a bad dog. He was your average Akita. So omgtain don't bother telling me what an average Akita is like till you have raised a few for yourself.
Sorry if that sounds blunt or hostile or rude. But your comment was not nice.
My father in law was heavily involved with the American Akita breed many years ago when the breed was new to Australia. He had at one stage , 8 adult Akita (and an intact male Shiba and a Basenji).
Now- the males did not all get along- but they were never given the opportunity to 'sort it out' or cause stress to eachother- this was unacceptable. Not all dogs will get along and that can't be expected to, but there still needs to be boundaries and appropriate management in place. Extra work to be put in to ensure that they are not allowed to be aggressive or intolerant.
My father in law showed multiple intact male (and female) Akitas, not once has he ever said that aggressive behaviour displayed was tolerated because they are Akitas. Behaviour like this is NOT typical of the breed- aggressive Akitas here in AUS will not get awarded,the judge will not accept that in the ring. It is not in the breed standard to be aggressive.
I show my adult female JAI, and have seen the only male JAI in the state here at shows - he displayed this aggressionand tension you described- not because he is a Japanese Akita, but because he was stressed and is a dog that grew up in a kennel in Japan and had no socialisation. And just because he was bred in Japan,does not mean that's how he should act. He is unsound and unsafe. He has been in the ring once in 12 months and the judge couldn't get near him-the judge did not accept this behaviour as being the breed ( it's NOT), and he was non-awarded. Our JA is a dream in the ring, the male American Akitas we know and watch in the ring have never displayed the behaviour you say is normal and accepted in the ring.
Why do I need to have 3 akita? What would that prove ? I don't want to get 3 akita and live in harmony just to prove you wrong. It is already very clear that I raise dogs differently than you-- I get my dogs 2 years apart so I can achieve their full potential and dedicate everything I can to them while they are growing and learning the world around them. I will then go to a reputable breeder who matches the personality of their puppies to my dogs.
As someone who has managed 30+ dogs on a daily basis, I know how important it is to match their personalities and how to integrate dogs into packs. If a dog in introduced into the pack on bad terms that experience is with all the dogs for the rest of their lives. If I let a new dog into our (established) pack, if its a puppy it will roll over and lick all the other dog's muzzles, appeasement behaviors. These are ANNOYING to adult dogs, not to mention if the puppy jumps on them, nips / bites them, normal puppy stuff. Many of the adult dogs will turn away, walk away, try to get far from the puppy. if i don't intervene then the puppy thinks it can get away with that bullshit and the adult dog loses its trust in me to protect them. Then once that puppy gets larger, the adult dog will defend itself with teeth.
Either way T_dog, you still said the things I quoted. You can't just backpedal and say you've said you were wrong before-- because just yesterday you claimed to know more than most of us.
Anyways. When you find the person with 3 male akita, lmk how much they helped you. Because I doubt you'll learn diddly squat. Theres no special trick, theres no certain way, this isn't harry potter, you won't suddenly be enlightened. I'm not the only person telling you this, either.
Koyuki. I only stated what I have read in books and the information that is all over the place. That says these dog have a predisposition to be dog on dog aggressive. I never stated how much aggression would be acceptable in a ring. Ofcourse to much will get a dog disqualified. Ofcourse there are many different reasons for showing aggression which as was pointed out above is a very vague word. I only stated that AKC has it in their standard and that many educated experienced owners and breeders will acknowledge this is true. I also said there are those who deny it in every group. But I appreciate you acknowledged that not all Akita get along. I am sure your father in law was a great owner and the fact that those dogs decided not to like each other don't make him any less talented as an owner. I also am not giving them an opportunity to sort it out. I tried a couple times and I did it as safety as possible. But came to the conclusion that they will likely hurt each other if I continued. My experience with Ares at the dog park taught me that is no place to take an Akita to socialize. I believe there is good reason that experienced owners sag no off leash walking and its not just poor recall. If an Akita runs into a "bully" I know first hand what happens. And imo omgtain only shows his ignorance of the breed if he thinks it will be any different for him when or if he or she ever brings his own Akita to a dog park.
I believe a quiet growl or a little teeth bearing might slide by. But out right vicious acts will not.
I know there must be breeders on here who own 3+ intact male Akita. The fact is it must be very hard to find a set of three that all get along.
also i never told you to go to the dog park. lol.
@Koyuki. Yes. I did the dog classes and I also used other family members dogs. I only took Kenji to the park a few times. We left the minute a pit bull or charpai or any other dog that was bred to fight in the past arrived as they are the "bully's". I am being facetious about the "bully" part. What I mean is dominating dogs in all the vague and many ways that dogs do it... Opps being facetious again lol Kenji never had any problems at the dog park. But Ares went everyday till about 11 months old. After a few disagreements. I call them that cuz no dog ever need stiched up and there was no blood. Ares was no longer able to go to the park. Someone told me in a thread about Ares long ago. I will never forget... Cuz its when I realized something important about the breed. "Everyone thinks that their Akita is the one Akita that will get along in the dog park that theirs is the one special one that will be the exception." Maybe not exact words but it could be found in my past threads.
That sticks with me till this day. Another one. "Would your Akita be labeled aggressive if you never took him to the park?" Answer no. Because Ares gets along great with his pack. Being Kenji and Tachi and all my brothers dogs.
My brother had three dogs before his divorce where custody of two went to his x wife. He had a Doberman a German Shepard and a yellow lab. Kenji visited them a lot as a puppy. Kenji also lived with the Doberman while my brother got a new house during his divorce. All my brothers dogs were good balanced obediant dogs. Kenji got lots of socialization. Eiji has not been socialized accept for in conformation classes once a week usually and his pack and a couple visits with the Doberman. Mars has had no socialization. But I don't plan on him being around any other dog besides Kenji and Tachi at this point.
if your dogs ever behaved that way to my dogs, i'd beat them. if i had a gun, i'd shoot them. i don't tolerate dogs being assholes to mine. my dog isn't going to develop fear or aggression because of your dog. my dogs look to me to protect them, and thats what i do. i've stopped caring about other peoples dogs. if your kid scared my kid, oh its on.
and perhaps that is your problem ? your dogs were never socialized? what the ?
i think its silly that you say akita are like no other dog. so.. tell me.. how many other of the hundreds of dog breeds have you had? LOL that is why i can't respect you. an akita is a dog. get over it. its nothing special.
all anyone said was your dogs weren't fit for such social interactions. and now we know why.
"He had a Doberman a German Shepard and a yellow lab. Kenji visited them a lot as a puppy. Kenji also lived with the Doberman while my brother got a new house during his divorce. All my brothers dogs were good balanced obediant [sic] dogs. Kenji got lots of socialization. Eiji has not been socialized accept [sic] for in conformation classes once a week usually and his pack and a couple visits with the Doberman. Mars has had no socialization."
you set your dogs up for failure. good job. xD
so yeah i agree i would never take your dogs to dog parks or dog day cares. especially since you see no need to socialize your dogs. i on the other hand love to attend shows, events, group meetings, hikes, classes etc and so my dogs have had proper training to do so. does it make your dogs bad dogs if they can't do that? no. especially if they aren't enjoying themselves and are always on the offensive. but you made them that way.
I socialized Ares and Kenji and I noticed that Ares only had problems outside the pack. You can take your socialization and wear it as a hat. When you raise your first Akita and you finally realize that even if you do everything right you will still find yourself pulling your angry Akita off from another dog. Even as perfect as you are. I just hope when the day comes for you to eat crow you fill your plate and tag me so I can watch you eat it.
i've kicked out more labs, goldens, boxers, etc from my dog daycare than i have pit bulls.
they also think their dog is super special, that goldens and labs and whatnot are just good dogs because of their breed. so they don't bother to train or socialize them. aka the same thing as you, you think its impossible because you have an akita so you don't even try.
if you or your dogs dont enjoy dog parks or daycare, then i don't want you there. i happen to enjoy having my dogs off leash, running, peeing, playing with other dogs. i dont care about rules, i take treats with me and work on their training. all dog parks also say no balls / toys because dogs can fight over them yet people still do it.
again, i dont care what a dogs breed is. it isnt my job to label dogs based on breed. when you bring your dog to my daycare i assess it as a clean slate with no ill intentions. each dog is an individual. honestly you might as well say all muslims are part of ISIS.
Many NK breeds are reputed to be reactive. Not recommended off leash. Push boundaries. Difficult to train. We are all warned to keep an eye on our dogs. These aren't rules dictating how your dog will be, just traits the breed is known for. So, what then? Choosing a well balanced puppy helps -- genetics can play a role, after all. But as for the traits? Many owners use it as a guide on what to train. They work with it, and condition their dogs as best they can so their dogs can be safe and happy.
Not all dogs are dog park dogs... not because their breed is aggressive, but because they, as a dog, can get stressed in certain situations. Or they can be reactive to rude dogs. Many reasons. So! Socialization in controlled environments, then. And constantly -- not just till they are 5 months or whatever. For life. Not just with the same familiar dogs all the time, but with strange dogs, too.... and good role model dogs. Socialization won't guarantee your pup will be a social butterfly or get along with dogs as they mature, but it will be doing everything within your power to set them up for success.
Not all dogs will get along, either. They just rub one another the wrong way. So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in. Maybe they'll have to be separated their entire life, or get rehomed. Sometimes it's just best that way. But at least you know you tried everything you could.