You can start with the best foundations (good temperament in the lines etc), but if the work isn't put in after in regards to constant socialisation then it really doesn't matter how the dog is when you get it , it comes down to the work put in by the owner to set the dog up for success
"Many NK breeds are reputed to be reactive. Not recommended off leash. Push boundaries. Difficult to train. We are all warned to keep an eye on our dogs. These aren't rules dictating how your dog will be, just traits the breed is known for. "
I just saying that this is not far from what I said. I was just more detailed and I say predispositioned or general temperament or just the Akita temperament. rather then they are reputed. And instead of many NK breed I just say Akita. I am also saying not sure if you blame me also. But its not always the owners fault.
You said: Socialization won't guarantee your pup will be a social butterfly or get along with dogs as they mature, but it will be doing everything within your power to set them up for success.
I agree with this. I socialized the crap out of Kenji. But I also said socialization won't guarantee a social butterfly.
You said: Not all dogs will get along, either. They just rub one another the wrong way. So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in.
I agree with this and also said this. When I can afford to employ one I will. Just a bit strapped right now.
It just feels to me like everything I say someone disagrees with. Even when I am right. It's just assumed that cuz my dogs have some issues I must know nothing.
That's why I thanked you cuz you said some things I have been saying you just worded it different. I am not using as a scapegoat. I can see how a person could see it that way. This is just gonna take me some time to study. Till then like you said. So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in. Maybe they'll have to be separated their entire life,
Ares taught me one thing for sure you can socialize the crap out of them. But that don't mean they will do better or worse with their pack. Ares did great in his pack. Just not at the park after his 11th month. Kenji was socialized alot also just not at the park everyday cuz that didn't work for Ares. Only difference is Kenji picked Eiji to not get along with. Ares got along with all in his pack Kenji included. When you attempt to socialize your Akita and he starts misbehaving you can only go so far before you say enough is enough. After all you are responsible for the vet bills if a fight happens and your Akita does damage. I learned long ago. My Akita is not aggressive if I don't put him in those social situations. Cuz not all Akita are social butterflys. In fact many Akita are not social butterflys. There will always be those who blame everything on the owner. But sometimes it just happens. Proper socialization and doing everything right still don't mean an Akita will not have these issues. It also don't explain why Kenji gets along with the dog that got the least socialization. Thing is we will never know with certainty why Kenji does this to Eiji but not to Mars or Tachi. If it were all my fault Kenji wouldn't get along with any of them. Something happened that day in the back yard and the rift it put in the pack might never heal. Thanks for the responses.
T_Dog, research Classical and Operant Conditioning, learning more about these methods of behavioral adjustment will help you better work with your dogs. Getting a certified behaviorist will best help you learn how to utilize these learning methods for your particular situation.
Try resources from behaviorists like Patricia McConnell, Sophia Yin, and Ian Dunbar.
I've purchased and distributed several copies of the "Leader of the Pack" booklets by Patricia McConnell to one of my puppy families. It's short enough to fit most people's and kids' attention span. 16 pages.
Oh- Patricia McConnell has a good one called "Feeling Outnumbered" about multi dog living.
Well, good luck with that. I hope you come to understand how good management is equally important in keeping a well adjusted group of dogs. Genetics surely plays a part and nobody denies that, but bad management can blow all that out of the water. That isn't "pitbull denial" or whatever you call it, it is embracing nature AND nurture. You might enjoy some of the Turid Rugaas films/books about Calming Signals and canine body language...you would probably be able to read your dogs better, at least be able to see the big stress signals they exhibited in the videos (the one who was fearful and the bully...you DO have a dog bully on your hands). But this is all falling on deaf ears, so best of luck.
Just sifting through the static and finding some of the best answers so I can more easily access them. Have not really had time to breath. I am going look into these helpful things that were said. It's not falling on deaf ears I am just moving slow and careful.
I don't post much on the forum these days (because I want the members to have a voice, not me), especially in these drama-filled threads. However, this thread keeps getting brought to my attention due to comments being flagged as rude, overly judgemental, or unhelpful.
So, with that said, I'd like to ask everyone to please keep the rude and unhelpful comment to themselves, and try to keep this discussion meaningful, helpful, and on topic.
Now here's my $0.02... As Chrystal ( @WrylyBrindle ) mentioned already, I own a lot of very aggressive intact dogs. Dog breeds that are much more powerful than an Akita. Thus, I have to manage most of my dogs very closely and consistently.
@T_Dog - I really think you mean well for your dogs and want them to get along, and I think you'd have a lot less stress in your life and among your dogs if you just accepted the fact that your dogs don't get along, and simply put some management in place to deal with this fact.
You seem to contradict yourself with these three Akita. On one hand you say Akita should be expected to be same-sex-aggressive, and the Akita fancy knows this and accepts it. But then on the other hand you want your three male Akita to get along, and are trying to force them to do so.
I really think it just comes down to this one simple rule in dog training: The more a dog is allowed to practice a behavior, the more often that behavior will be expressed.
The more time you allow your dogs to growl and bully each other, and be generally inappropriate, whether it's under your watchful eye, wearing a muzzle, or whatever, the more time they have to practice those behaviors that cause them to not be able to coexist. By trying to "fix" the problem, you are actually exacerbating it.
As mentioned above, time to accept the fact the damage is done, and accept the situation you and your dogs are in, and put some real solid management in place so your dogs can live a peaceful life w/o the stress of being forced to coexist when they clearly are not comfortable with it.
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I have owned a LOT of dogs now, and I can tell you with certainty, no dog (of any breed) lives 100% up to their breed description. The sooner you accept that, move past the "breed", and deal with your dogs as individuals the sooner you'll start to see the whole picture.
So everyone knows. I don't know how to flag things and I am not sure if I was flagged. I try to be polite as possible most the time. After so many rude comments I did start to get irritated and was starting to get snippy myself. Sorry about that I usually try real hard not to let people bring that kind of talk out of me.
Thanks for the comment @BradA1878 I think you are right. It's to risky to keep trying. I got caught up in defending my statement about how its known that Male Akita tend to not get along. Only in defence of myself. Because I was basically told I was a bad owner and that it's all my fault. It's not all my fault. I made mistakes. But I was just trying to get a few people to understand. This was never an easy task. Trying to get 3 male Akita to get along into adult hood.
You said in a thread that you have to many dogs to micromanage and that you let them figure things out on their own sometimes. Because you wanted them to be able to self manage. Sorry it's not an exact quote. You stated that you don't allow them to bully and you seperate them if they do. In that same paragraph. I really should go back and find the exact quote. But I don't wanna lose this comment in trying.
That's what I was trying to do. I realize that I probably let Kenji get away with to much and that's why it progressed into this. But I got chastised pretty hard for attempting to let them figure things out. The Video I posted that really is the first time Kenji did that type of thing to Eiji. After the response I got on here. he tried to do it one more time. I stopped it and they haven't been together since.
Lots gets lost with all the arguments in this thread. So I wanna say again that this all started after a fight in the backyard that I wasn't there to stop. Because I got complacent. Because I had both pups for 4 or 5 months by then with no issues. They all got along pretty well. But after that fight they seemed to have made up and was doing good. Like two days later. They did it again two days before the dog show on Nov 1st. I kept Eiji seperated. When I got home three days later. Eiji came in the house and barked at the other three dogs. He had to be rushed out the front door cuz the baby gate wasn't holding the three angry dogs much longer. The next day I posted the video of me trying to let Kenji make up with Eiji. What I am trying to say here is that things happened very fast. They went from getting along to not like a light switch. I believe it was because the Two pups got into a fight and Kenji tried to break it up. Because he had been stopping them from fighting for months. Well the last two times I believe Eiji stood up to Kenji the first time and Mars did during the second time. I know this cuz the two pups challenged each other many times but never Kenji. Well in the heat of battle. They must of faught back with Kenji instead of submitting. Forgive the use of the word.... Anyways I figured it was Eiji the first fight that got ganged up on and Mars on the second. I could tell because of who had the most blood and puncture wounds. The first time it was obvious Mars helped Kenji and the second time it was just as obvious the Eiji helped Kenji beat up Mars.
That was the turning point. I have my part in this cuz I should of been separating them when they were not supervised. Instead of getting complacent to the danger of them spending time alone. That's my biggest mistake I think. Letting them make their own agreements in the past had never included that type of behavior. With Ares and Kenji they did it during play and they would back off on their own if one got mad. With Tachi and Ares and with Tachi and Kenji. Same thing they would stop if one got serious. They figured this stuff out with my supervision. I did hafta pull them apart every once in a while just cuz I wasn't comfortable with letting it keep going. But I knew they did this stuff when I was not home also.
It seems to me now and I have been at this point for more then a few days now. That I know Kenji and Eiji will likely not be safe around each other anymore. I have not even tried to reconcile Mars and Eiji and after trying with Kenji. I don't want to try with Mars. So they will be in pairs. My best and favorite Breeder suggested this to me the day before I decided She was right. I needed to stop trying and just pair up the ones that get along. Thanks to her I have well designed Kennels thanks to her for many many conversations and advice. She is priceless to me.
I believe this thread has ran its course. No hard feelings if you close this thread.
@T_Dog I think you've been given a bit of a rough time, when it is obvious you're trying to do right by your dogs. It's why you're here, asking for help. And there's definitely been a lot of good recommendations given. It's why I mentioned to be mindful of the language being used, as I felt it was causing more issues than anything else.
The advice Brad gave you might be the among the best you'll get in regards to people who can empathize with the situation... and I think he chimed in at a good time.
@T_Dog - I remember writing that, and to a certain extent I still agree with it. However, as with anything in life, my opinion has changed with age and experience. What I've learned is there is no "one size fits all" strategy when it comes to managing a group of dogs.
I still cannot (and do not) micromanage my dogs, and I still expect them to get along in certain groups. I set those groups up for success by matching my dogs personalities' appropriately, and I accept the fact that some of their personalities just don't fit well together. Those dogs with personalities that don't fit well, I just don't bother trying to get them to get along. For me, getting dogs who do not mesh well together to get along is a project that is set for failure from the beginning.
Above all things, I do my very best to set my dogs up for success, not failure.
While your intention may have been good, and may have been derived from things you have read that worked with other people, your method and situation is unique to you. So you have to keep that in mind when trying to mirror advice you see online or in person.
For example, I personally wouldn't muzzle two conflicting dogs I want to get along, because the muzzle changes the way the dogs interact with each other, and so that creates a contrived environment.
With that said, I have heard (but never seen proof of) people having success with this technique. This just goes to show that there really isn't a "one size fits all" strategy to what you're trying to achieve.
Hell, even my strategy (which is loose and always changing) breaks down from time to time. Simple oversights on my side, like missing the start of a female coming into heat or forgetting to bring a dog in before letting others out, cause conflicts in my large dog group - and sometimes those conflicts cannot be recovered from.
An example of this, one that (embarrassingly) @zandrame got to witness in person at our house is Akashi (Kai Ken) and Kishin (Kishu Ken). They had always been good buddies, until @zandrame came to visit, and I stupidly let Ayu out to meet them in the dog yard when she was in heat while Akashi and Kishin. The addition of a dog in heat to the excitement of having new people out in the dog yard, excited Kishin, which made Akashi get guardy about Ayu, and we ended up witnessing a pretty bad fight between Akashi and Kishin. That fight ended their relationship for good. I tried a few times after that to put them out with each other, but it always just ended in conflict, and so I stopped. I accepted the fact I fucked up and caused a grudge that was probably not going to go away. It was humbling.
Which brings me to humility. That's the name of the game with dogs. Ask any professional trainer or behaviorist and I can guarantee they can give you an example of being humbled by a client dog (and if they claim they can't, then they're either lying or not as experienced as they claim to be). Dogs are living, thinking, creatures, attempting to understand them 100% is a snipe hunt. Just when you think you got it all down, something happens to show you just how little you know when it comes to understanding dogs.
Anyway, point is, we're all learning and trying. No one should be made to feel bad about wanting to learn. Everyone on this forum should be open to learning even when that learning is hard to swallow.
T_Dog I just want to say I NEVER said you were a bad owner. Inexperienced, especially when it comes to behavioral issues ? Yes. But I never said you were a bad owner. Like I said, its not my place to judge that. There are hundreds of people who dump their dogs at my daycare, I look at the dog and can tell it has had little to no training, or that it is matted and needs to be groomed, or that something might have happened to it because it cowards and shakes and slides along the ground when I put a leash on it. But I don't know what happens when these dogs aren't in my care, and I most likely never will. I know that Bastille comes everyday because if he is left alone he eats their house, but they refuse to crate him because it is cruel. They claim to train him a lot but he pulls his owners around and won't do basic commands for them. I only know what the dog shows me and the owner tells me.
I also feel like you take things the wrong way. Correct me if I'm wrong Brad, but I don't think you've ever let your dogs actually 'work it out'. You and Jen have always had an eye for body language, and I'm sure if you saw a particularly tense or one-sided situation then you would diffuse it. If the pups were bothering one of your older dogs and they were stiff, whale-eyed and not enjoying the interaction i'm positive you would relieve the adult dog and find the puppies another play mate. If one of your dogs was constantly pinning another dog you would step in, just because there is no give and take. It takes two to tango, just as it takes two to communicate. Some dogs don't care what the others say.
I'll show you an example of one of the only sort of 'work it out' I allow dogs to do. The GSD is mine, he is fear aggressive (strange dogs in his face stress him out), he got attacked/had bad experiences at the dog park many times as a puppy and that was my failure. I let him get bullied and then he turned into one. I came here, learned, and now he is 98% good with dogs (as long as they aren't large puppies he's unfamiliar with).
At 38 seconds he has a ball and goes to grab one that Wilson (black labradoodle) was getting close to. He realized Wilson wasn't going to snatch it out of his mouth, or take it, or whatever, and then leaves BOTH balls. This could have been a bad conflict of resource guarding or what not, I could've told him to leave it, I could've done a lot of things, but I let them work it out.
If you want more examples of things to look for in behavior and play, this was Nare being an asshole as a puppy (and me not knowing near as much as I do now).
They begin kind of sort of having fun, Zelda (malinois) wasn't really digging it honestly. and at 1:28 she is saying that she is DONE. She is by her owner and not engaging with Nare at all, all of her movements are away from him and she is desperately begging her owner to save her. That IMO is a bad social experience. If I was Zeldas owner I would've taken my dog away or asked me to leave lol. It had the potential to teach Nare he could get away with anything, and could've also taught Zelda she might have to do more next time (like growl, nip, or bare teeth).
You're correct @omgtain ... We do our best to not put dogs who are uncomfortable with each other together. So, we'd not do the "let them work it out" thing. I think my comments from years back have been misread that way more than once.
It comes back to the "setting them up for success" thing. Putting two dogs together who do not get along or putting a dog who is not comfortable around other dogs with dogs is setting them up for failure IMHO.
Here is another video of me letting dogs 'work it out', if thats what you want to call it. Mimi (Shiba / Eskie mix) wasn't comfortable in the daycare setting, tbh she was spoiled and wasn't socialized. She had short 20 minute sessions with Tavi (then slowly added more dogs) to get her socialized. If you watch, Mimi would nip at Tavi's face defensively at about 5 seconds to tell her that she was playing too rough (jumping on her, toppling over her). So Tavi handicaps herself and rolls over so Mimi is more comfortable. They successfully worked that out. If Tavi didn't listen to Mimi I would definitely step in. Mimi was known to escalate further if dogs didn't heed her warnings, but because Tavi listened then Mimi is learning she doesn't have to escalate.
It all boils down to what you want, I guess. I try to help dogs make good choices and reward them accordingly.
Good example of them working it out. @omgtain. Thanks for putting some videos up. I do notice in the dog park video that your pup seems like he is serious/not playing when chasing and nipping kinda growling at the other dog. I could be wrong here but it seemed like your pup was saying If i could catch you I would kick your butt. The other dog did take it well. The other dog probably knew he was serious. I see in that video potential for a fight to happen if the other dog was not so tolerant. Thanks for posting that. I appreciate you sharing that moment with me.
Thanks for the advice @BradA1878 it is very humbling. I thought I had this. I thought I was doing everything right. But I didn't know what I didn't know. Your right.. Now I have to just stop trying and keep them seperated. I hafta live with it. Lucky for me I have good facilities to be able to.
I bought 6 different books based on what I read in the other thread and authors and books mentioned on this one too.
Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D. How to be the Leader of the Pack...And have Your Dog Love You For It.
Alexandra Horowitz Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know
Turid Rugaas On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals
Patricia B. McConnell The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs
Stanley Coren How Dogs Think: What the World Looks Like to Them and Why They Act the Way They Do
Stanley Coren How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication
Heres a video of both of mine playing. At 42 secs Tavi stops, asking Nare for some room, he is really into the playing so he takes about 8 seconds to back off. This is also another form of decision making, instead of insisting on playing he leaves. Once he leaves Tavi reengages ( reinforcing his good decision with more play! ).
Heres a video the day after I got Tavi (she was 4lb and Nare 70lb), you can hear how loud he is and how much he mouths, but its all play.
Nare just happens to have a different (loud) play style. And this is why you have to look at dogs as individuals, and their body posture / language as a whole. He isn't hurting her, and he has never hurt another dog before. IMO he is a pussy, he's the dog who would run up to you and bark, then run away. ( Best defense is a good offense )
In the video of him with Zelda, he was playing. He was getting frustrated though because he couldn't catch her.
Honestly though go look at a bunch of videos of dogs interacting and try to figure out what is happening.
Comments
I just saying that this is not far from what I said. I was just more detailed and I say predispositioned or general temperament or just the Akita temperament. rather then they are reputed. And instead of many NK breed I just say Akita. I am also saying not sure if you blame me also. But its not always the owners fault.
You said: Socialization won't guarantee your pup will be a social butterfly or get along with dogs as they mature, but it will be doing everything within your power to set them up for success.
I agree with this. I socialized the crap out of Kenji. But I also said socialization won't guarantee a social butterfly.
You said: Not all dogs will get along, either. They just rub one another the wrong way. So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in.
I agree with this and also said this. When I can afford to employ one I will. Just a bit strapped right now.
It just feels to me like everything I say someone disagrees with. Even when I am right. It's just assumed that cuz my dogs have some issues I must know nothing.
That's why I thanked you cuz you said some things I have been saying you just worded it different. I am not using as a scapegoat. I can see how a person could see it that way. This is just gonna take me some time to study. Till then like you said.
So you separate them -- maybe bring an animal behaviourist in. Maybe they'll have to be separated their entire life,
Sorry not considering rehoming.
When you attempt to socialize your Akita and he starts misbehaving you can only go so far before you say enough is enough. After all you are responsible for the vet bills if a fight happens and your Akita does damage. I learned long ago. My Akita is not aggressive if I don't put him in those social situations. Cuz not all Akita are social butterflys. In fact many Akita are not social butterflys. There will always be those who blame everything on the owner. But sometimes it just happens. Proper socialization and doing everything right still don't mean an Akita will not have these issues. It also don't explain why Kenji gets along with the dog that got the least socialization. Thing is we will never know with certainty why Kenji does this to Eiji but not to Mars or Tachi. If it were all my fault Kenji wouldn't get along with any of them. Something happened that day in the back yard and the rift it put in the pack might never heal. Thanks for the responses.
If you are interested, here are a few relevant threads -
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5713/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-of-the-alpha-dog-valid/p1
http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/6867/lets-discuss-the-role-of-dominance-in-the-social-hierarchy-training-of-domestic-and-wild-canine-/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5911/the-macho-myth-dr-ian-dunbar/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5403/patricia-mcconnells-take-on-the-d-word-/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/4625/video-quantum-canine-no-such-thing-as-dominance/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5137/what-is-wrong-with-cesar-millan-and-what-is-wrong-with-us/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/6122/what-the-experts-say-about-the-dog-whisperer-cesar-millan/p1
http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/111719#Comment_111719 Just sifting through the static and finding some of the best answers so I can more easily access them. Have not really had time to breath. I am going look into these helpful things that were said. It's not falling on deaf ears I am just moving slow and careful.
I'm Brad, owner/administrator of this forum.
I don't post much on the forum these days (because I want the members to have a voice, not me), especially in these drama-filled threads. However, this thread keeps getting brought to my attention due to comments being flagged as rude, overly judgemental, or unhelpful.
So, with that said, I'd like to ask everyone to please keep the rude and unhelpful comment to themselves, and try to keep this discussion meaningful, helpful, and on topic.
Thanks!
~Brad
@T_Dog - I really think you mean well for your dogs and want them to get along, and I think you'd have a lot less stress in your life and among your dogs if you just accepted the fact that your dogs don't get along, and simply put some management in place to deal with this fact.
You seem to contradict yourself with these three Akita. On one hand you say Akita should be expected to be same-sex-aggressive, and the Akita fancy knows this and accepts it. But then on the other hand you want your three male Akita to get along, and are trying to force them to do so.
I really think it just comes down to this one simple rule in dog training: The more a dog is allowed to practice a behavior, the more often that behavior will be expressed.
The more time you allow your dogs to growl and bully each other, and be generally inappropriate, whether it's under your watchful eye, wearing a muzzle, or whatever, the more time they have to practice those behaviors that cause them to not be able to coexist. By trying to "fix" the problem, you are actually exacerbating it.
As mentioned above, time to accept the fact the damage is done, and accept the situation you and your dogs are in, and put some real solid management in place so your dogs can live a peaceful life w/o the stress of being forced to coexist when they clearly are not comfortable with it.
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I have owned a LOT of dogs now, and I can tell you with certainty, no dog (of any breed) lives 100% up to their breed description. The sooner you accept that, move past the "breed", and deal with your dogs as individuals the sooner you'll start to see the whole picture.
Thanks for the comment @BradA1878 I think you are right. It's to risky to keep trying. I got caught up in defending my statement about how its known that Male Akita tend to not get along. Only in defence of myself. Because I was basically told I was a bad owner and that it's all my fault. It's not all my fault. I made mistakes. But I was just trying to get a few people to understand. This was never an easy task. Trying to get 3 male Akita to get along into adult hood.
You said in a thread that you have to many dogs to micromanage and that you let them figure things out on their own sometimes. Because you wanted them to be able to self manage. Sorry it's not an exact quote. You stated that you don't allow them to bully and you seperate them if they do. In that same paragraph. I really should go back and find the exact quote. But I don't wanna lose this comment in trying.
That's what I was trying to do. I realize that I probably let Kenji get away with to much and that's why it progressed into this. But I got chastised pretty hard for attempting to let them figure things out. The Video I posted that really is the first time Kenji did that type of thing to Eiji. After the response I got on here. he tried to do it one more time. I stopped it and they haven't been together since.
Lots gets lost with all the arguments in this thread. So I wanna say again that this all started after a fight in the backyard that I wasn't there to stop. Because I got complacent. Because I had both pups for 4 or 5 months by then with no issues. They all got along pretty well. But after that fight they seemed to have made up and was doing good. Like two days later. They did it again two days before the dog show on Nov 1st. I kept Eiji seperated. When I got home three days later. Eiji came in the house and barked at the other three dogs. He had to be rushed out the front door cuz the baby gate wasn't holding the three angry dogs much longer. The next day I posted the video of me trying to let Kenji make up with Eiji. What I am trying to say here is that things happened very fast. They went from getting along to not like a light switch. I believe it was because the Two pups got into a fight and Kenji tried to break it up. Because he had been stopping them from fighting for months. Well the last two times I believe Eiji stood up to Kenji the first time and Mars did during the second time. I know this cuz the two pups challenged each other many times but never Kenji. Well in the heat of battle. They must of faught back with Kenji instead of submitting. Forgive the use of the word.... Anyways I figured it was Eiji the first fight that got ganged up on and Mars on the second. I could tell because of who had the most blood and puncture wounds. The first time it was obvious Mars helped Kenji and the second time it was just as obvious the Eiji helped Kenji beat up Mars.
That was the turning point. I have my part in this cuz I should of been separating them when they were not supervised. Instead of getting complacent to the danger of them spending time alone. That's my biggest mistake I think. Letting them make their own agreements in the past had never included that type of behavior. With Ares and Kenji they did it during play and they would back off on their own if one got mad. With Tachi and Ares and with Tachi and Kenji. Same thing they would stop if one got serious. They figured this stuff out with my supervision. I did hafta pull them apart every once in a while just cuz I wasn't comfortable with letting it keep going. But I knew they did this stuff when I was not home also.
It seems to me now and I have been at this point for more then a few days now. That I know Kenji and Eiji will likely not be safe around each other anymore. I have not even tried to reconcile Mars and Eiji and after trying with Kenji. I don't want to try with Mars. So they will be in pairs. My best and favorite Breeder suggested this to me the day before I decided She was right. I needed to stop trying and just pair up the ones that get along. Thanks to her I have well designed Kennels thanks to her for many many conversations and advice. She is priceless to me.
I believe this thread has ran its course. No hard feelings if you close this thread.
The advice Brad gave you might be the among the best you'll get in regards to people who can empathize with the situation... and I think he chimed in at a good time.
I still cannot (and do not) micromanage my dogs, and I still expect them to get along in certain groups. I set those groups up for success by matching my dogs personalities' appropriately, and I accept the fact that some of their personalities just don't fit well together. Those dogs with personalities that don't fit well, I just don't bother trying to get them to get along. For me, getting dogs who do not mesh well together to get along is a project that is set for failure from the beginning.
Above all things, I do my very best to set my dogs up for success, not failure.
While your intention may have been good, and may have been derived from things you have read that worked with other people, your method and situation is unique to you. So you have to keep that in mind when trying to mirror advice you see online or in person.
For example, I personally wouldn't muzzle two conflicting dogs I want to get along, because the muzzle changes the way the dogs interact with each other, and so that creates a contrived environment.
With that said, I have heard (but never seen proof of) people having success with this technique. This just goes to show that there really isn't a "one size fits all" strategy to what you're trying to achieve.
Hell, even my strategy (which is loose and always changing) breaks down from time to time. Simple oversights on my side, like missing the start of a female coming into heat or forgetting to bring a dog in before letting others out, cause conflicts in my large dog group - and sometimes those conflicts cannot be recovered from.
An example of this, one that (embarrassingly) @zandrame got to witness in person at our house is Akashi (Kai Ken) and Kishin (Kishu Ken). They had always been good buddies, until @zandrame came to visit, and I stupidly let Ayu out to meet them in the dog yard when she was in heat while Akashi and Kishin. The addition of a dog in heat to the excitement of having new people out in the dog yard, excited Kishin, which made Akashi get guardy about Ayu, and we ended up witnessing a pretty bad fight between Akashi and Kishin. That fight ended their relationship for good. I tried a few times after that to put them out with each other, but it always just ended in conflict, and so I stopped. I accepted the fact I fucked up and caused a grudge that was probably not going to go away. It was humbling.
Which brings me to humility. That's the name of the game with dogs. Ask any professional trainer or behaviorist and I can guarantee they can give you an example of being humbled by a client dog (and if they claim they can't, then they're either lying or not as experienced as they claim to be). Dogs are living, thinking, creatures, attempting to understand them 100% is a snipe hunt. Just when you think you got it all down, something happens to show you just how little you know when it comes to understanding dogs.
Anyway, point is, we're all learning and trying. No one should be made to feel bad about wanting to learn. Everyone on this forum should be open to learning even when that learning is hard to swallow.
I also feel like you take things the wrong way. Correct me if I'm wrong Brad, but I don't think you've ever let your dogs actually 'work it out'. You and Jen have always had an eye for body language, and I'm sure if you saw a particularly tense or one-sided situation then you would diffuse it. If the pups were bothering one of your older dogs and they were stiff, whale-eyed and not enjoying the interaction i'm positive you would relieve the adult dog and find the puppies another play mate. If one of your dogs was constantly pinning another dog you would step in, just because there is no give and take. It takes two to tango, just as it takes two to communicate. Some dogs don't care what the others say.
I'll show you an example of one of the only sort of 'work it out' I allow dogs to do. The GSD is mine, he is fear aggressive (strange dogs in his face stress him out), he got attacked/had bad experiences at the dog park many times as a puppy and that was my failure. I let him get bullied and then he turned into one. I came here, learned, and now he is 98% good with dogs (as long as they aren't large puppies he's unfamiliar with).
https://www.facebook.com/omgtain/videos/932766693448176/
At 38 seconds he has a ball and goes to grab one that Wilson (black labradoodle) was getting close to. He realized Wilson wasn't going to snatch it out of his mouth, or take it, or whatever, and then leaves BOTH balls. This could have been a bad conflict of resource guarding or what not, I could've told him to leave it, I could've done a lot of things, but I let them work it out.
If you want more examples of things to look for in behavior and play, this was Nare being an asshole as a puppy (and me not knowing near as much as I do now).
They begin kind of sort of having fun, Zelda (malinois) wasn't really digging it honestly. and at 1:28 she is saying that she is DONE. She is by her owner and not engaging with Nare at all, all of her movements are away from him and she is desperately begging her owner to save her. That IMO is a bad social experience. If I was Zeldas owner I would've taken my dog away or asked me to leave lol. It had the potential to teach Nare he could get away with anything, and could've also taught Zelda she might have to do more next time (like growl, nip, or bare teeth).
It comes back to the "setting them up for success" thing. Putting two dogs together who do not get along or putting a dog who is not comfortable around other dogs with dogs is setting them up for failure IMHO.
Here is another video of me letting dogs 'work it out', if thats what you want to call it. Mimi (Shiba / Eskie mix) wasn't comfortable in the daycare setting, tbh she was spoiled and wasn't socialized. She had short 20 minute sessions with Tavi (then slowly added more dogs) to get her socialized.
If you watch, Mimi would nip at Tavi's face defensively at about 5 seconds to tell her that she was playing too rough (jumping on her, toppling over her). So Tavi handicaps herself and rolls over so Mimi is more comfortable. They successfully worked that out. If Tavi didn't listen to Mimi I would definitely step in. Mimi was known to escalate further if dogs didn't heed her warnings, but because Tavi listened then Mimi is learning she doesn't have to escalate.
It all boils down to what you want, I guess. I try to help dogs make good choices and reward them accordingly.
I do notice in the dog park video that your pup seems like he is serious/not playing when chasing and nipping kinda growling at the other dog. I could be wrong here but it seemed like your pup was saying If i could catch you I would kick your butt. The other dog did take it well. The other dog probably knew he was serious. I see in that video potential for a fight to happen if the other dog was not so tolerant. Thanks for posting that. I appreciate you sharing that moment with me.
Thanks for the advice @BradA1878 it is very humbling. I thought I had this. I thought I was doing everything right. But I didn't know what I didn't know. Your right.. Now I have to just stop trying and keep them seperated. I hafta live with it. Lucky for me I have good facilities to be able to.
I bought 6 different books based on what I read in the other thread and authors and books mentioned on this one too.
Patricia B. McConnell Ph.D.
How to be the Leader of the Pack...And have Your Dog Love You For It.
Alexandra Horowitz
Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know
Turid Rugaas
On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals
Patricia B. McConnell
The Other End of the Leash: Why We Do What We Do Around Dogs
Stanley Coren
How Dogs Think: What the World Looks Like to Them and Why They Act the Way They Do
Stanley Coren
How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication
Heres a video of both of mine playing. At 42 secs Tavi stops, asking Nare for some room, he is really into the playing so he takes about 8 seconds to back off. This is also another form of decision making, instead of insisting on playing he leaves. Once he leaves Tavi reengages ( reinforcing his good decision with more play! ).
https://www.facebook.com/omgtain/videos/610428969015285/
Heres a video the day after I got Tavi (she was 4lb and Nare 70lb), you can hear how loud he is and how much he mouths, but its all play.
Nare just happens to have a different (loud) play style. And this is why you have to look at dogs as individuals, and their body posture / language as a whole. He isn't hurting her, and he has never hurt another dog before. IMO he is a pussy, he's the dog who would run up to you and bark, then run away. ( Best defense is a good offense )
In the video of him with Zelda, he was playing. He was getting frustrated though because he couldn't catch her.
Honestly though go look at a bunch of videos of dogs interacting and try to figure out what is happening.