Neko - are you speaking from knowledge or are you just saying? Honest question. I was just guessing. In my experience, Japanese folks are into "regionality."
Well, I dunno if you guys will get an answer to your pricing questions since it is kinda a personal question. But I have imported enough dogs to say that I would guess the price to be $1500 - $3000 for a Shikoku puppy, not including shipping, health checks, etc.
Also, the shipping cost for most of our dogs from Europe to the US has cost $2000 - $2500. The $1600 figure seems a little low to me, but I could be wrong.
Unless you're breeding, is there really any advantage to importing a shikoku?
I mean, Shikoku I get I think will most definitely be from Katja [ God willing & time allowed ] but Kai I have seriously considered importing, just because I've seen more handsome Kai in Japan [ via Shigeru & Corina Spam ] than I have here in the US.
But the Shikoku seem to be relatively similar, especially since Katja [ & Peggy ] have imported in the past few years, the only advantage I can see is that by importing you are introducing new blood lines for breeding, but if a pup is just for a pet, is there an advantage?
Just curious Personally, I'd rather spend the extra money on toys & stuff for the pup lol [ and one of those LDS collars! ]~
That was the point I was trying to make Osy. There really is no point in importing shikoku from Japan if you are not breeding. It would be damn hard to set up a health guarantee with a Japanese breeder - and I'm not even sure if they even offer one. For a pet owner, it would be a risk to import - especially if you're going to be spending thousands on a dog - it would be easier and more logical to go through one of the repuatble breeders like Katja or Peggy that come highly recommended.
For breeders - they go in it knowing all the risks - but it doesn't really make sense why a pet owner would take that risk if they didn't have to...you know?
Yeah, it's probably time we put this fantasy to rest. :)
Seems to me if you really wanted to set up a breeding program, what you'd be looking to do would be to establish relationships and connections with one or more breeders in Japan, for the purpose of going back every couple of years for new pups or to borrow healthy adults for your program. That is going to take time. From what I've read of her posts Corina has put a lot of work into it.
If you aren't looking to breed puppies, then it makes vastly more sense to talk to Katja or Peggy.
Just a thought - even if you did only want a pet, it would be a benefit to the breed if you imported a dog from an outside bloodline and allowed it to be used in someone else's breeding program. Even if you just get one dog and no more, it would help!
I, personally, am planning on importing and breeding, and there are a few others who plan to as well. If those of us who do plan on importing got together, we could probably make it easier for each other and if those who just want pets, but would like to help out joined in, it would be even easier. Especially if one of those people happens to be bilingual.
Heidi - that would make sense - however, for the owners who would import and just wanted the dog as a pet - then technically, wouldn't it be considered a co-ownership? Either the breeder would buy the dog and get it to the "dog" owner, but be able to use the dog for their breeding program - or - the "dog" owner would purchase the dog - but the breeder would compensate the "dog" owner for using their dog for their breeding program, ie: stud fee.
I think when co-owning dogs, it must be with someone you trust. Sometimes things don't work out, people change their minds...issues may come up - I mean, Katja is a prime example...She co-owned Ishi, some issues came up about breeding him and so the other owner no longer wanted him, so Katja had to BUY him back and re-sell him as a pet.
I think thorough contracts should be made when co-owning dogs, just so the breeder and co-owner is safe as well as the future of the dog and their well being.
It would be more helpful to have a suitable studs/bitches closer by then to have to send a dog to Europe or Canada. This would also help out Katja and Peggy. Exactly why would it be hard to setup a health guarantee with breeders in Japan? I must have missed something along the way. Is there actual fact on this or is it conjecture? From what I have read on Ms. Veghel site, (http://www.shikoku.nl/?pageid=16) The Japanese breeders care just as much if not more about their pups. If one were able to find other breeders in Japan, it does give them more variety on the kind of shikoku they want. I am sure Japanese breeders can tell you the personality types of their pups as well, if you were looking for something in particular. Also we would only benefit from reaching out to find breeders in Japan. I am sure there is a wealth of information (like health issues) to be sought from them. I think bringing more dogs from Japan would greatly help out the Shikoku society here in the States.
Well trying to find reputable breeders in Japan that will deal with foreigners is hard enough when looking for a pet, I couldn't imagine what Katja and Peggy had to go through to find one for breeding dogs. Unless you are fluent in the language or have a very trustworthy translator you're taking a risk of being duped more than if you spoke the same language. It's nice that you want a dog from its origin but what exactly is the point of getting a pet dog from Japan besides bragging rights?
Either it would be a co-ownership, or the owner of the dog could collect stud fees or the money from selling the puppies. I guess it would depend on what the people involved felt comfortable with. Co-owning dogs is pretty common with breeders, and they can sell puppies on co-ownerships if they want to keep that dog in their breeding program but can't keep the dog. Usually, the breeder gives up all ownership after an agreed upon number of breedings. Maybe they co-own the dog until they've had three litters, then they're spayed and are just a pet for the rest of their life. It does require a lot of trust, so I wouldn't enter into such a thing lightly, but if someone did want to contribute to the gene pool without having a full-out breeding program, that would be one way to contribute. The benefit would be that someone interested in breeding would help pay for the dog to be imported, and help with the connections on getting the dog in the first place. Then, the pet owner would have an easier time getting their dog from Japan and the breeder would have another dog in their breeding program without the full financial and time burden of owning another dog. Definitely a lot of contracts involved.
I don't think Japanese breeders do health guarantees. They don't do health checks over there, either. It's a different mentality.
Jessika - I am not sure - i'm sure Corina will be able to answer that for you. But even if there was - would it be worth it to ship a sick shikoku back to Japan for at least 1600.00 and pay another 1600.00 to receive another puppy? I don't think so. I NEVER said that the Japanese Breeders don't care about their dogs.
I think you are missing my point or are mis-reading my posts. I am simply saying...it is a risk to import a dog as a PET...why risk it when there are reputable breeders here that you can get a puppy from?
I understand Heidi's point about brining over imports for new bloodlines, but that's for her breeding program. I am all for breeder's to import or to co-own - they need to in order to continue to breed for the betterment of the breed and to avoid too much linebreeding.
As far as Japanese Breeders and health - From what I remember (corina, or someone else can correct me if im wrong) - Japanese breeders are not known to test their dogs.
The Breeder you referenced from Holland - I believe they are a part of this forum as well. I don't think they have logged on in a long time, but I do remember them introducing themselves. However, they imported puppies under 8 weeks old. I would think any reputable breeder knows that a puppy should stay with it's mother and litter mates until 8-12 weeks of age. Taking a puppy away from it's mother and litter mates early can cause lack of social skills with other dogs or other social problems. So that reference itself points out the differences in views of breeding in Japan and the US.
Not saying that Japanese Breeders don't care for their puppies or dogs - i'm just stating, they have a different way of breeding and what is appropriate over there may be considered inappropriate over here. Just different views on things.
Simply put - I think that importing of Shikoku's should be left to the breeders - if you want an imported dog, maybe you should possibly offer to co-own with a breeder.
Guys I don't want to argue, this is just what I think,
1) Reputable breeders here have still produced dogs that have problems. 2) It is just as much of a risk if the dog is for breeding. 3) I would not put a puppy that is sick back on a plane for a new one. There are many dogs on this forum that have problems and you guys didn't put a stamp on their forehead and send them back for a new one. 4) I stated for the beginning "if you are willing to put in the time and effort to do good research you can find a breeder in Japan just as good, if not better" you know, like the kind of effort that Katja and Peggy put in. 5) Some people may want a breeder who has been in the shikoku biz longer then Katja/Peggy and then be able to tap into a wealth of information, or they might want a shikoku that looks different from the ones Peggy and Katja have. 6) I don't think we all should be lumped into the assumption that paying for this or that is worth it or not. What people are willing to pay on things is their own prerogative. As is the trouble they are willing to go through. 7) Some people may also have resources at their disposal that make things easier. For example, I have military friends station in Japan, who have better resources (including translators)to look up breeders. Said friends have resources to get the dog checked out before it gets on a plane and could bring dog with them on a visit back to the States or send it on military sponsored flights. Or as being former military and a spouse I have access to cheap military sponsored flights.
My biggest thing is that I believe breeders in Japan have a ton of information that we would really find useful. I think that we should get in touch with breeders even if it is just for information alone.
Those are great points, Jessika. I've been talking with a woman who has been importing Slovak Cuvacs for a few years. She initially was working with a US breeder for her need of guard dogs but ran into some problems with the US breedings and lines and starting importing. Of course the US based breeders and fanciers are not pleased but she had to do what she had to do to get a stable, healthy stock for her guardian dogs and her needs.
My point is that if you are willing to do extensive research, make connections, maybe even travel to the origin country for more background checks or have someone who will, then be it pet, working line or breeding intention - its up to the individual because they are planning for, paying for, working with and living with the actual dog in the end. I think doing the work and introducing imports are helping to preserve and strengthen the breed.
Wow, personal viewpoint differences in details aside (kudos to keeping things civil), let it not be said you guys aren't passionate about dogs! Thanks for the enlightening read!
The more *quality* bloodlines that can be brought into Europe and North America for the Shikoku Ken [or ANY breed] is beneficial to the breed as whole - even if they are not kept intact and used for breeding since the data from their health, over the course of their lives, is super valuable on it's own. Obviously, for the best examples of the breed [most healthy and within the middle of the breed standard] it would be nice to keep them intact for breeders to out-cross too.
Having said that, only the most responsible owners should keep their dogs intact, and those responsible owners need to be willing to make the painful choice to neuter their pet if they don't fall within the standard for the breed or if they feel their dog would not add to the overall quality of the breed. Making a choice like that means potentially eating the investment you have made when purchasing your dog with the intent to stud it out. Just because it is a Shikoku doesn't mean it should be bred. Take Ahi for example, even without her health issues, she shouldn't be bred as she is way to big for the standard - but she is beautiful. That is why we neutered her before her knee issues ever came about.
Also, speaking from experience, it is really a good idea to meet the parents of the puppy you are getting and to meet the breeder face-to-face. you really just don't know what you are getting. I mean we met the father of most of our Akita [excluding Kahuna], and we still ended up getting screwed - and when I say screwed I don't mean from a breeding standpoint, I mean even from a pet owner standpoint. When you drop $5k on a dog and then find these health issues, and then have to fight a battle with someone in another country over these health issues [health grantee or not], it really becomes a crap shoot.
So, if you would rather import your Shikoku from Japan, or Europe, or the Moon, and you don't mind the risk and spending the money/effort, then do ti! Go for it! If that dog ends up being a top quality example of the breed, and you have done the work to link up with Shikoku breeders who have expressed interest in out-crossing to your imported Shikoku Ken - AWESOME! Just realize there is a bigger risk when importing a pup, and you can get screwed even if you do all the leg work to prevent it - and when/if you get screwed understand that the logistics of righting that wrong is extremely difficult once you have your pup.
Also living with an intact dog or bitch is not very fun.
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Tip for importing a pup: Most breeder in Japan *DO NOT* do health tests on their dogs, but if you want a dog from them and you want health tests preformed on the Sire and Dam of the litter you expect to get a puppy from, you can always pay them to do the health tests for you. A lot of the Akita breeders I work with do this.
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Jessika - You said: "The Japanese breeders care just as much if not more about their pups."
I'm sure that is the case, but that doesn't mean they do health checks. In some ways they probably care more about their dogs than the average US breeder, that is why it is so difficult to get a pup from Japan - they fear what will happen to the breed here in the states.
I have worked with breeders that care a lot for their dogs, and give them wonderful lives, but still don't do health checks on the majority of their breeding stock.
It is not just Japan that has this issue with health checks, it is the whole world. Most breeders, no matter the country they live in, don't do regular health checks on their breeding stock.
I think whether it's a good idea to import or not depends totally on what your expectations are. If you want to get the dog relatively easily and have the breeder close at hand to communicate with, then stick with North American breeders. If you're looking for something that North America doesn't offer and you're willing to put up with the time, jumping through the hoops, money, and risks, then importing is for you.
Also, shikokus are more expensive than your average purebred dog no matter where you get them from. The high cost of importing from Japan trickles down in a sense that the North American breeders have to charge more to help cover the cost to them. I really don't think there'd be a huge difference in terms of the risk of your dog developing a genetic disorder because the North American and European breeders have imported recently enough that I don't think they've had much chance to weed anything out. That, and it doesn't seem like shikokus are particularly prone to anything, at least not yet. I think the risk lies in trying to enforce a contract if your dog DOES end up having something. It's not like interpol is going to care. If your breeder isn't going to cooperate and honour their agreements, you're pretty much screwed.
On a slightly unrelated note... It seems to me - maybe someone can verify this (Corina? Brad?) - that there is less variation within the breed in shikokus since they've been isolated for so long and tend to breed more pure. I know there are lines within the breed and all, but most of the shikokus I've seen look pretty similar as opposed to kai ken and akita, there seems to be quite a bit of variation. Not to mention breeds like Iceland sheepdogs - they are aallll over the place in terms of variation.
Wouldn't it also be a factor whether you wanted a puppy or adult? Since there are only two breeders here and more in Japan, there would be a higher chance of an adult being available in Japan...correct me if I'm wrong. I myself am considering getting an older puppy or adult. Haven't given importing from Japan much thought though.
On another note, there are some other breeds that aren't available in North America at all. I have a couple in mind that I plan to import in the future, if there aren't breeders by the time I'm ready. One of them is the elusive Swedish Elkhound.
Heidi - I think there is a pretty wide variety in the Shikoku if you compare working lines to non-working lines.
Here is a pic of a working Shikoku that Shigeru posted in another thread:
*Note the tail.
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DJ - Good point about the older dogs, tho I know of a few older Shikoku that are open for placement right now.
From a breeding standpoint, if you plan to kennel your dogs, it is probably A LOT SAFER to import/purchase a young adult dog that has been proven [in the ring, working, health, etc.] then to get a puppy. Good points DJ.
I'm sure there are more adults available in Japan, but that brings me to another point. A shikoku raised in Japan is more likely to have spent its life in a kennel, not inside as a family pet. I think they're less likely to get along with other dogs (as with any adult shikoku).
Brad- Really? I thought that mostly only puppies were available. Could you give any more info on said dogs? Though I'm not ready to add another dog at the moment- the near future is reasonable.
And that's one interesting looking Shikoku. Never seen one with such a dark muzzle.
a Swedish Elkhound huh? there was another member not long ago that wanted one of those or a shikoku too.. there must be similarities that catch your eye in both shikoku and swedish elkhound!
That working shikoku has its own look to it, not at all like the North American ones we are used to seeing on this forum! There is another supposed shikoku's videos on youtube that actually has no resemblance other than body type to most other shikokus. Because there aren't many of them in existence worldwide, are the standard and types that varied?
It's as if the Shikoku Ken "breed" is more of a functional category, like Huskies. Which is weird because english-speaking conventional wisdom is that the breed is very pure because there haven't historically been a lot of other types of dog to interbreed with.
I mean, either that's not a Shikoku Ken, or our understanding of what the breed actually is, is somewhat off.
Comments
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I mean, Shikoku I get I think will most definitely be from Katja [ God willing & time allowed ] but Kai I have seriously considered importing, just because I've seen more handsome Kai in Japan [ via Shigeru & Corina Spam ] than I have here in the US.
But the Shikoku seem to be relatively similar, especially since Katja [ & Peggy ] have imported in the past few years, the only advantage I can see is that by importing you are introducing new blood lines for breeding, but if a pup is just for a pet, is there an advantage?
Just curious
For breeders - they go in it knowing all the risks - but it doesn't really make sense why a pet owner would take that risk if they didn't have to...you know?
Honestly though, I didn't know that Peggy & Katja offered health guarantees on their pups.
Seems to me if you really wanted to set up a breeding program, what you'd be looking to do would be to establish relationships and connections with one or more breeders in Japan, for the purpose of going back every couple of years for new pups or to borrow healthy adults for your program. That is going to take time. From what I've read of her posts Corina has put a lot of work into it.
If you aren't looking to breed puppies, then it makes vastly more sense to talk to Katja or Peggy.
I, personally, am planning on importing and breeding, and there are a few others who plan to as well. If those of us who do plan on importing got together, we could probably make it easier for each other and if those who just want pets, but would like to help out joined in, it would be even easier. Especially if one of those people happens to be bilingual.
I think when co-owning dogs, it must be with someone you trust. Sometimes things don't work out, people change their minds...issues may come up - I mean, Katja is a prime example...She co-owned Ishi, some issues came up about breeding him and so the other owner no longer wanted him, so Katja had to BUY him back and re-sell him as a pet.
I think thorough contracts should be made when co-owning dogs, just so the breeder and co-owner is safe as well as the future of the dog and their well being.
I don't think Japanese breeders do health guarantees. They don't do health checks over there, either. It's a different mentality.
I think you are missing my point or are mis-reading my posts. I am simply saying...it is a risk to import a dog as a PET...why risk it when there are reputable breeders here that you can get a puppy from?
I understand Heidi's point about brining over imports for new bloodlines, but that's for her breeding program. I am all for breeder's to import or to co-own - they need to in order to continue to breed for the betterment of the breed and to avoid too much linebreeding.
As far as Japanese Breeders and health - From what I remember (corina, or someone else can correct me if im wrong) - Japanese breeders are not known to test their dogs.
The Breeder you referenced from Holland - I believe they are a part of this forum as well. I don't think they have logged on in a long time, but I do remember them introducing themselves. However, they imported puppies under 8 weeks old. I would think any reputable breeder knows that a puppy should stay with it's mother and litter mates until 8-12 weeks of age. Taking a puppy away from it's mother and litter mates early can cause lack of social skills with other dogs or other social problems. So that reference itself points out the differences in views of breeding in Japan and the US.
Not saying that Japanese Breeders don't care for their puppies or dogs - i'm just stating, they have a different way of breeding and what is appropriate over there may be considered inappropriate over here. Just different views on things.
Simply put - I think that importing of Shikoku's should be left to the breeders - if you want an imported dog, maybe you should possibly offer to co-own with a breeder.
1) Reputable breeders here have still produced dogs that have problems.
2) It is just as much of a risk if the dog is for breeding.
3) I would not put a puppy that is sick back on a plane for a new one. There are many dogs on this forum that have problems and you guys didn't put a stamp on their forehead and send them back for a new one.
4) I stated for the beginning "if you are willing to put in the time and effort to do good research you can find a breeder in Japan just as good, if not better" you know, like the kind of effort that Katja and Peggy put in.
5) Some people may want a breeder who has been in the shikoku biz longer then Katja/Peggy and then be able to tap into a wealth of information, or they might want a shikoku that looks different from the ones Peggy and Katja have.
6) I don't think we all should be lumped into the assumption that paying for this or that is worth it or not. What people are willing to pay on things is their own prerogative. As is the trouble they are willing to go through.
7) Some people may also have resources at their disposal that make things easier. For example, I have military friends station in Japan, who have better resources (including translators)to look up breeders. Said friends have resources to get the dog checked out before it gets on a plane and could bring dog with them on a visit back to the States or send it on military sponsored flights. Or as being former military and a spouse I have access to cheap military sponsored flights.
My biggest thing is that I believe breeders in Japan have a ton of information that we would really find useful. I think that we should get in touch with breeders even if it is just for information alone.
My point is that if you are willing to do extensive research, make connections, maybe even travel to the origin country for more background checks or have someone who will, then be it pet, working line or breeding intention - its up to the individual because they are planning for, paying for, working with and living with the actual dog in the end. I think doing the work and introducing imports are helping to preserve and strengthen the breed.
Jesse
Having said that, only the most responsible owners should keep their dogs intact, and those responsible owners need to be willing to make the painful choice to neuter their pet if they don't fall within the standard for the breed or if they feel their dog would not add to the overall quality of the breed. Making a choice like that means potentially eating the investment you have made when purchasing your dog with the intent to stud it out. Just because it is a Shikoku doesn't mean it should be bred. Take Ahi for example, even without her health issues, she shouldn't be bred as she is way to big for the standard - but she is beautiful. That is why we neutered her before her knee issues ever came about.
Also, speaking from experience, it is really a good idea to meet the parents of the puppy you are getting and to meet the breeder face-to-face. you really just don't know what you are getting. I mean we met the father of most of our Akita [excluding Kahuna], and we still ended up getting screwed - and when I say screwed I don't mean from a breeding standpoint, I mean even from a pet owner standpoint. When you drop $5k on a dog and then find these health issues, and then have to fight a battle with someone in another country over these health issues [health grantee or not], it really becomes a crap shoot.
So, if you would rather import your Shikoku from Japan, or Europe, or the Moon, and you don't mind the risk and spending the money/effort, then do ti! Go for it! If that dog ends up being a top quality example of the breed, and you have done the work to link up with Shikoku breeders who have expressed interest in out-crossing to your imported Shikoku Ken - AWESOME! Just realize there is a bigger risk when importing a pup, and you can get screwed even if you do all the leg work to prevent it - and when/if you get screwed understand that the logistics of righting that wrong is extremely difficult once you have your pup.
Also living with an intact dog or bitch is not very fun.
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Tip for importing a pup: Most breeder in Japan *DO NOT* do health tests on their dogs, but if you want a dog from them and you want health tests preformed on the Sire and Dam of the litter you expect to get a puppy from, you can always pay them to do the health tests for you. A lot of the Akita breeders I work with do this.
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Jessika - You said: "The Japanese breeders care just as much if not more about their pups."
I'm sure that is the case, but that doesn't mean they do health checks. In some ways they probably care more about their dogs than the average US breeder, that is why it is so difficult to get a pup from Japan - they fear what will happen to the breed here in the states.
I have worked with breeders that care a lot for their dogs, and give them wonderful lives, but still don't do health checks on the majority of their breeding stock.
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It is not just Japan that has this issue with health checks, it is the whole world. Most breeders, no matter the country they live in, don't do regular health checks on their breeding stock.
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Also, shikokus are more expensive than your average purebred dog no matter where you get them from. The high cost of importing from Japan trickles down in a sense that the North American breeders have to charge more to help cover the cost to them. I really don't think there'd be a huge difference in terms of the risk of your dog developing a genetic disorder because the North American and European breeders have imported recently enough that I don't think they've had much chance to weed anything out. That, and it doesn't seem like shikokus are particularly prone to anything, at least not yet. I think the risk lies in trying to enforce a contract if your dog DOES end up having something. It's not like interpol is going to care. If your breeder isn't going to cooperate and honour their agreements, you're pretty much screwed.
On a slightly unrelated note... It seems to me - maybe someone can verify this (Corina? Brad?) - that there is less variation within the breed in shikokus since they've been isolated for so long and tend to breed more pure. I know there are lines within the breed and all, but most of the shikokus I've seen look pretty similar as opposed to kai ken and akita, there seems to be quite a bit of variation. Not to mention breeds like Iceland sheepdogs - they are aallll over the place in terms of variation.
On another note, there are some other breeds that aren't available in North America at all. I have a couple in mind that I plan to import in the future, if there aren't breeders by the time I'm ready. One of them is the elusive Swedish Elkhound.
Here is a pic of a working Shikoku that Shigeru posted in another thread:
*Note the tail.
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DJ - Good point about the older dogs, tho I know of a few older Shikoku that are open for placement right now.
From a breeding standpoint, if you plan to kennel your dogs, it is probably A LOT SAFER to import/purchase a young adult dog that has been proven [in the ring, working, health, etc.] then to get a puppy. Good points DJ.
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I will be commenting on a few things and asking a few more q's in a couple of hours, but right now its time to feed the horses and my family.
And that's one interesting looking Shikoku. Never seen one with such a dark muzzle.
That working shikoku has its own look to it, not at all like the North American ones we are used to seeing on this forum! There is another supposed shikoku's videos on youtube that actually has no resemblance other than body type to most other shikokus. Because there aren't many of them in existence worldwide, are the standard and types that varied?
I mean, either that's not a Shikoku Ken, or our understanding of what the breed actually is, is somewhat off.