I just went back through this whole thread, and I'm having a little trouble recovering from all the cuteness. He sounds like a really good boy. I love the story about his puppy play sessions.
Well, this is kinda "old news" but Sosuke has had a couple of evaluations. First, I went duck hunting with a mentored hunt program and afterward there was a barbeque and retriever demonstration and all that, so I brought Sosuke over to ask all the duck dog enthusiasts what they thought of him. We threw a duck wing around, and Sosuke did quite well. Contrary to what I was expecting, he was really gentle with the wing. They were actually really impressed, too, saying that their lab puppies would have chomped it up more than that before they were trained to be gentle. Interesting! He retrieved it fairly well, although as usual, he dropped it before getting to me. The people there said he had lots of potential and with his drive, energy level, love of water, and his strong interest in critters and dead things, he could make a great duck dog.
They also said I should try him on upland birds because he seems really interested in smelling things, tracking things, and is very keen on everything that's going on. They said that retrievers are more like retrieving machines than hunters - that is, they really do just love retrieving and the tracking and smelling is just a small part of that. That's certainly how it seemed in the retriever demonstration as well, because the handler was actually giving the dog directional commands so that the dog didn't actually do most of the work actually locating the bird. That surprised me; I didn't think that water fowl retrieving was like that. Maybe not everyone does that, too, I don't know.
The day after that I took him back to the SAR people because I had been practicing with him with toys in the coulees, and he seemed to have really amped-up toy drive, even in the wilderness with the wild things. BUT... of course when he's being evaluated he acts completely differently. He was doing alright until he found some deer poop and it was like, "TOYTOYTOYomigoshTOYTOYTOY - hold that thought, deer poop..." And then the toy didn't exist. Nada, nothing, only the deer poop mattered. He rolled in it then started trailing off into the bushes... after that deer I suspect. So, I talked a bit with the SAR people and we basically decided that while he has a lot of attributes of a SAR dog, at the end of the day, he's simply too interested in wildlife. This is pretty much what happened the first time he was evaluated. A deer went by and he was too interested in that for the toy to matter.
So... I'm pheasant hunting on Saturday, through another mentored hunt. I will probably talk to some of those people about dogs, too.
Oh yeah, and just for fun, I bought a canvas training bumper and scented it with duck and threw it around for Sosuke. He bayed it up nicely, lol. He ran circles around it nipping and barking at it and jumping around. Then he cached it under his blankets.
I think I will try some scenting and trailing games with deer scent and track some deer with him. There's no one to talk to about that, though, since no one does it. I'm looking into places I could possibly move to where I could hunt big game with dogs when I graduate. But, until then... we'll see what happens.
Sorry to hear the SAR folks aren't so hot on him, but that's really sweet that he's got some retriever potential! I was just remarking to Brad a day or two ago, that if I had 1) be as "retriever wise" when I started training Ty as I am today, and 2) started him at a young age, he might have turned into a really good duck dog.
A couple of comments on your impressions. First, the soft mouth at a young age thing. In retriever lore, it's commonly believed that mouthiness and the desire to chew everything is a strong indicator of retrieving drive. Brad and I discussed this shortly after I got Diesel. I was overwhelmed with how mouthy he was. Brad, I believe correctly, pointed out that a really mouthy dog has a LOT more opportunity to learn how to moderate bite pressure...a desirable trait in a retriever. Second, the nose vs. directional signals thing. I strongly disagree with what they said about labs being retrieving machines rather than hunters. Labs were originally developed in Newfoundland to aid fisherman in retrieving their nets from the water. When they arrived in England, they were converted to *upland* bird dogs. It wasn't until they came to the US that they were turned more into waterfowl dogs. In addition, locating downed fowl autonomously is a highly desirable skill in a retriever. They should have a VERY strong nose. A wounded duck can run or swim a long way, requiring the dog to track. There are two types of retrieves: marks and blinds. A marked retrieve is one where the dog sees the bird in the air, hears the shot, and then watches (or marks) the fall. In this case, the dog should take a straight "line" to the spot of the fall and hunt for the bird. Dogs with poor marking skills may "break down" in tricky terrain like multiple changes in grass length or repeated water entries. In those cases, the hunter will "handle" them by using a whistle and hand signals to direct them to the spot of the fall. A blind retrieve is when the dog doesn't see the bird fall. In that case, the handler give the dog the direction to run, and they are expected to "line" in that direction until told otherwise. This is a taught skill, it is not instinctual. And it requires practiced choreography between dog and handler. Blind retrieves are a more advanced skill for retrievers. Lastly, the fact that Sosuke didn't bring the wing all the way back to you should not be a huge concern. Very few retrievers instinctually bring things all the way back. Retrieving to hand (holding the bird until the hunter takes it from their mouth) is a taught skill for almost all retrievers that typically requires an unpleasant training process known as "force fetch". Labs, of all retrievers, are prized for their ability to take "pressure" during training and not lose their drive to retrieve. That's why it's generally no big deal to "force fetch" a lab. If my experiences with Tyson are any indicator, your two biggest hurdles to successfully training Sosuke to be a duck dog will be: 1) ability to pressure him to learn new skills, and 2) the fact that you're starting his training so late in his life.
Anyway, end of long rant. Sounds like a fun day for the two of you! Fail for not taking some pictures. :-P
Juno sends some nibble grooming on the mane to her brother! I think these pups' caching behavior is quite cute. Ditto Dave on the no pictures, though: I want to see Brother S.!
You know, in our state we can't hunt deer with dogs either, but its possible to train up and be on a call list for tracking & recovering downed game. Maybe they have that in Alberta?
I need a mentored hunt- I'm a little jealous.;)
What's the resolution of tracking deer? Just asking because it makes no sense to to track deer only to say, Yay! there she is, now DON'T go over there! Some kind of reward/fulfillment is needed or its bound to be frustrating- need not be the deer itself, but it should be awesome enough to compete with the attraction of live deer. I dont know if you guys play tug (hard biting, full force), a real hide/fur tug might do it. I dont know.
Kevin Behan is very big on time with your dog being a "hunt" together and he has said that what the dog needs (but often doesnt get) is to fulfill the "hunt"- and that it doesnt matter what the prey object is, just that the dog gets to finish the job/resolve the energy he charges up in the hunting process, ie-playing tug (getting to bite) instead of acting frustrated, lunging, barking when he isnt allowed to bite the prey or whatever. For you guys, it will actually BE a deer tracking experience, not a hike/game/metaphorical hunt, so I'm interested in the end game.
Chrys, @WrylyBrindle, I'm not totally positive how I would go about tracking deer with Sosuke. Because it's illegal as it is to have a dog even with me while big game hunting, and particularly if you let the dogs bay up the deer (which would be the traditional Japanese way), I would probably have Sosuke on a line and have him track the deer, then when I spotted it, I'd shoot it, then let Sosuke go find the shoot deer. At which point, yeah, we can play fetch/tug with deer parts, and of course, I would be field dressing the deer after that and he'd get something to chew on. Maybe saw off a foot right away for him to play with? Finding a dead (or injured, if I'm not a good shot) deer would be pretty exciting and from what I can tell of my dogs - that would be a good reward right there. But, you know, I don't really know. I will be going deer hunting at some point before the season's up and when I have deer parts to work with, we can really get training.
Dave! @dlroberts I'm going pheasant hunting again this weekend or the next with some people from school and they don't mind if I bring Sosuke along for some training... so he needs a bit of a crash course before I take him into the field. Any suggestions? I made a "pheasant bumper" by tying pheasant wings to a rolled-up piece of fabric and am having him find it in tall grass and fetch it. He's pretty good at that - except when he gets the bumper and just tears around with it and won't give it back (but he mostly just does that when Rakka's around).
I have some videos of this, and I promise to post them soon! And I promise to take videos and photos of pheasant hunting.
Whatever the outcome is, sounds like you two are having some fun together. I have bumpers for Koda, and I scent them with pheasant and deer. They are the only toys he likes, but it's an outside game. I can't wait to get him out off leash again. I'm so envious of your adventures right now.
Sweet! A crash course huh? Well, I'd say you're doing the right thing. I'd recommend just going out and having fun this weekend. Your goal should be to teach Sosuke that there are birds to be found, and that's it. Don't worry about retrieving, or his range, or if he quarters correctly. Just get him out there and build his enthusiasm. The only thing you should be really careful about is letting him eat the birds. This was a big mistake I made in Tyson's training. While working him on training bumpers at home, I would take him on the weekends for work on live birds. I missed making the slow transition from training tools, to frozen birds, to freshly thawed birds, to freshly killed or wounded birds. In that order, they will be increasingly high value and increasingly enticing to chomp and eat. And once he tastes a freshly killed bird, that's basically it. You've got a hard mouth dog and there's not much you can do about it (except for force fetch and I can't see a Kai putting up with that).
If you haven't cleaned your birds from last weekend already, I would play with them in the yard still frozen. Do this up until a day or two before your hunt, then defrost them and play with them in the yard. Lastly, bring them defrosted on the hunt. If he's losing interest or looking bored, drop one of those birds in the field and let him find it. Because your job is to build enthusiasm on this trip, you want to make sure he has success. If you get a few birds without him in the field, plant them and let him find them too.
Really, all I suggest is to relax, and make sure Sosuke has as good a time as possible. And whatever you do, DO NOT SHOOT A BIRD OVER HIM. Even if he shows good sound recovery, a 12 gauge fired over his head is probably the loudest thing he will ever have been exposed to and you run the risk of not only creating gunshyness, but turning him off to birds completely. Make sure he's in a well shielded area when you're out hunting with the other dogs, then let him play with the freshly killed birds in the field. Make sure you don't expect/ask too much from him, and he's sure to have a good time. :-)
And most importantly, make sure you have a good time too! And, of course, keep us updated!
@hondru here in Oregon it's illegal to have a dog with you if you shoot a deer, even if you were originally hunting birds or something else. Gotta take the dog home if you spot and deer and want to shoot it first. You might even get in trouble for having a dog in the truck if you bag a deer with it in there. No tracking or any of that fun stuff allowed, and it's a pretty lame rule. Boar though... That's allowed and I hope it doesn't change. Same goes for rabbits.
The bird hunting thing sounds fun though! I hope it goes good.
I have dressed the birds, although I have all the pieces. I skinned them and have the skins, plus the wings and feet. Skins have the heads left on. The breast meat is waiting to be eaten and the carcasses are in doggie meal-sized portions in the freezer. I saw a pheasant pelt bumper online with freeze-dried pelts and I was thinking I could make something like that.
@Losech - yep, it's illegal here, too. It seems that it will be legal in 2013, though, and I have private land on which I can hunt with no wardens to penalize me. I could go to BC and do it legally, too. I could get in trouble, it's true.
Well, I don't have anything of value to add other than to say: Thanks for working him! ) It makes us so proud to hear/read about all Haur's pups working in their own way, whatever the work may be.
sorry, I thought you meant just tracking them, for tracking's sake. got it! You mean to shoot it.
I have talked with the VT Bearhound assoc guys and they say the dogs are pretty happy just to tree the bear, and get good-boy'd. Even if the guys just take a photo and go. these are a lot of hounds, plotts et al.
A couple of Sosuke pics. @jujee Julie, you wanted to see some S pics. Sorry they're late! I'm never home when it's light out.
All of the pics where he's looking at me are blurry. It was a lot darker than this picture lets on, but the 50mm did a pretty good job. Only so much you can do when it's dark and the dog is jumping around, though. But, you can see how he's filling out, and how his tail is getting curlier.
Rakka and Sosuke are pretty close on size now. Note that Sosuke finally lifts his leg when he pees *so proud*, lol. It's funny because he squatted forever, but now that he lifts his leg, he lifts it waaaaay up. Also, note the teamwork going on between packmates, here (Rakka is scuffing the grass). I think co-marking is good for their relationship :oP
This is the first time we've been to Sosuke's favourite swimming spot since it froze. He charged down the hill to the river and then stopped and kind of looked at me like, "Uhh... no swimming?"
He looks great! I was about to start nagging you for some pics again lol! Hmm, Kyuubi has been around the 31-32 lb mark for a few months now. I hope he starts filling out more.
Well at least Sosuke is lifting his leg.... Kyuubi still squats :P hahah
SAR has been kind of a roller coaster ride, but I actually have an update on that. Since I'm volunteering with SAR with or without a dog, I have to go through a whole bunch of training. Today we did a section on how to work with dogs and they showed us a bunch of videos. In one of the videos, the dog was being rewarded with a treat rather than a toy, and then the instructor (who is president of the local SAR dog organization) mentioned something about rewarding the dog "with a toy or food or whatever the primary reward is." So afterward I asked her about working with a dog that is less toy motivated and more food motivated, and I talked a bit about kai ken doing SAR in Japan and alternative training methods for a SAR dog that don't require high toy drive.
She then told me that I could go ahead and train Sosuke with food or with whatever I felt would work. Another experienced SAR dog handler was there, too, and they agreed that what they really care about was results, so if I can train Sosuke to find people, I'm welcome to be part of their group. They said that they're not familiar with training dogs any way other than by using toys, but that there's no right or wrong way. Then they brought up bloodhounds, which aren't toy motivated but make good SAR dogs, and suggested I get started in tracking.
So, turns out I can train Sosuke for SAR after all! Yay! I will need a bunch of books and videos now to get started on my own.
That is so cool, can't wait to see Sosuke in action...Have you tried seeing if there was anyone doing training classes competitive scent work? It's somewhat similar (more like a baby version) and may help in learning methods to training with treats. But for some reason, the hide and seek recall game comes to mind.
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They also said I should try him on upland birds because he seems really interested in smelling things, tracking things, and is very keen on everything that's going on. They said that retrievers are more like retrieving machines than hunters - that is, they really do just love retrieving and the tracking and smelling is just a small part of that. That's certainly how it seemed in the retriever demonstration as well, because the handler was actually giving the dog directional commands so that the dog didn't actually do most of the work actually locating the bird. That surprised me; I didn't think that water fowl retrieving was like that. Maybe not everyone does that, too, I don't know.
The day after that I took him back to the SAR people because I had been practicing with him with toys in the coulees, and he seemed to have really amped-up toy drive, even in the wilderness with the wild things. BUT... of course when he's being evaluated he acts completely differently. He was doing alright until he found some deer poop and it was like, "TOYTOYTOYomigoshTOYTOYTOY - hold that thought, deer poop..." And then the toy didn't exist. Nada, nothing, only the deer poop mattered. He rolled in it then started trailing off into the bushes... after that deer I suspect. So, I talked a bit with the SAR people and we basically decided that while he has a lot of attributes of a SAR dog, at the end of the day, he's simply too interested in wildlife. This is pretty much what happened the first time he was evaluated. A deer went by and he was too interested in that for the toy to matter.
So... I'm pheasant hunting on Saturday, through another mentored hunt. I will probably talk to some of those people about dogs, too.
Oh yeah, and just for fun, I bought a canvas training bumper and scented it with duck and threw it around for Sosuke. He bayed it up nicely, lol. He ran circles around it nipping and barking at it and jumping around. Then he cached it under his blankets.
I think I will try some scenting and trailing games with deer scent and track some deer with him. There's no one to talk to about that, though, since no one does it. I'm looking into places I could possibly move to where I could hunt big game with dogs when I graduate. But, until then... we'll see what happens.
A couple of comments on your impressions. First, the soft mouth at a young age thing. In retriever lore, it's commonly believed that mouthiness and the desire to chew everything is a strong indicator of retrieving drive. Brad and I discussed this shortly after I got Diesel. I was overwhelmed with how mouthy he was. Brad, I believe correctly, pointed out that a really mouthy dog has a LOT more opportunity to learn how to moderate bite pressure...a desirable trait in a retriever. Second, the nose vs. directional signals thing. I strongly disagree with what they said about labs being retrieving machines rather than hunters. Labs were originally developed in Newfoundland to aid fisherman in retrieving their nets from the water. When they arrived in England, they were converted to *upland* bird dogs. It wasn't until they came to the US that they were turned more into waterfowl dogs. In addition, locating downed fowl autonomously is a highly desirable skill in a retriever. They should have a VERY strong nose. A wounded duck can run or swim a long way, requiring the dog to track. There are two types of retrieves: marks and blinds. A marked retrieve is one where the dog sees the bird in the air, hears the shot, and then watches (or marks) the fall. In this case, the dog should take a straight "line" to the spot of the fall and hunt for the bird. Dogs with poor marking skills may "break down" in tricky terrain like multiple changes in grass length or repeated water entries. In those cases, the hunter will "handle" them by using a whistle and hand signals to direct them to the spot of the fall. A blind retrieve is when the dog doesn't see the bird fall. In that case, the handler give the dog the direction to run, and they are expected to "line" in that direction until told otherwise. This is a taught skill, it is not instinctual. And it requires practiced choreography between dog and handler. Blind retrieves are a more advanced skill for retrievers. Lastly, the fact that Sosuke didn't bring the wing all the way back to you should not be a huge concern. Very few retrievers instinctually bring things all the way back. Retrieving to hand (holding the bird until the hunter takes it from their mouth) is a taught skill for almost all retrievers that typically requires an unpleasant training process known as "force fetch". Labs, of all retrievers, are prized for their ability to take "pressure" during training and not lose their drive to retrieve. That's why it's generally no big deal to "force fetch" a lab. If my experiences with Tyson are any indicator, your two biggest hurdles to successfully training Sosuke to be a duck dog will be: 1) ability to pressure him to learn new skills, and 2) the fact that you're starting his training so late in his life.
Anyway, end of long rant. Sounds like a fun day for the two of you! Fail for not taking some pictures. :-P
You know, in our state we can't hunt deer with dogs either, but its possible to train up and be on a call list for tracking & recovering downed game. Maybe they have that in Alberta?
I need a mentored hunt- I'm a little jealous.;)
What's the resolution of tracking deer? Just asking because it makes no sense to to track deer only to say, Yay! there she is, now DON'T go over there! Some kind of reward/fulfillment is needed or its bound to be frustrating- need not be the deer itself, but it should be awesome enough to compete with the attraction of live deer. I dont know if you guys play tug (hard biting, full force), a real hide/fur tug might do it. I dont know.
Kevin Behan is very big on time with your dog being a "hunt" together and he has said that what the dog needs (but often doesnt get) is to fulfill the "hunt"- and that it doesnt matter what the prey object is, just that the dog gets to finish the job/resolve the energy he charges up in the hunting process, ie-playing tug (getting to bite) instead of acting frustrated, lunging, barking when he isnt allowed to bite the prey or whatever. For you guys, it will actually BE a deer tracking experience, not a hike/game/metaphorical hunt, so I'm interested in the end game.
Dave! @dlroberts I'm going pheasant hunting again this weekend or the next with some people from school and they don't mind if I bring Sosuke along for some training... so he needs a bit of a crash course before I take him into the field. Any suggestions? I made a "pheasant bumper" by tying pheasant wings to a rolled-up piece of fabric and am having him find it in tall grass and fetch it. He's pretty good at that - except when he gets the bumper and just tears around with it and won't give it back (but he mostly just does that when Rakka's around).
I have some videos of this, and I promise to post them soon! And I promise to take videos and photos of pheasant hunting.
Ditto on the pic fail, but I'm the same way. :-)
If you haven't cleaned your birds from last weekend already, I would play with them in the yard still frozen. Do this up until a day or two before your hunt, then defrost them and play with them in the yard. Lastly, bring them defrosted on the hunt. If he's losing interest or looking bored, drop one of those birds in the field and let him find it. Because your job is to build enthusiasm on this trip, you want to make sure he has success. If you get a few birds without him in the field, plant them and let him find them too.
Really, all I suggest is to relax, and make sure Sosuke has as good a time as possible. And whatever you do, DO NOT SHOOT A BIRD OVER HIM. Even if he shows good sound recovery, a 12 gauge fired over his head is probably the loudest thing he will ever have been exposed to and you run the risk of not only creating gunshyness, but turning him off to birds completely. Make sure he's in a well shielded area when you're out hunting with the other dogs, then let him play with the freshly killed birds in the field. Make sure you don't expect/ask too much from him, and he's sure to have a good time. :-)
And most importantly, make sure you have a good time too! And, of course, keep us updated!
Boar though... That's allowed and I hope it doesn't change. Same goes for rabbits.
The bird hunting thing sounds fun though! I hope it goes good.
PS: Yes, pictures please.
----
I have talked with the VT Bearhound assoc guys and they say the dogs are pretty happy just to tree the bear, and get good-boy'd. Even if the guys just take a photo and go. these are a lot of hounds, plotts et al.
All of the pics where he's looking at me are blurry. It was a lot darker than this picture lets on, but the 50mm did a pretty good job. Only so much you can do when it's dark and the dog is jumping around, though. But, you can see how he's filling out, and how his tail is getting curlier.
Rakka and Sosuke are pretty close on size now. Note that Sosuke finally lifts his leg when he pees *so proud*, lol. It's funny because he squatted forever, but now that he lifts his leg, he lifts it waaaaay up. Also, note the teamwork going on between packmates, here (Rakka is scuffing the grass). I think co-marking is good for their relationship :oP
This is the first time we've been to Sosuke's favourite swimming spot since it froze. He charged down the hill to the river and then stopped and kind of looked at me like, "Uhh... no swimming?"
Well at least Sosuke is lifting his leg.... Kyuubi still squats :P hahah
She then told me that I could go ahead and train Sosuke with food or with whatever I felt would work. Another experienced SAR dog handler was there, too, and they agreed that what they really care about was results, so if I can train Sosuke to find people, I'm welcome to be part of their group. They said that they're not familiar with training dogs any way other than by using toys, but that there's no right or wrong way. Then they brought up bloodhounds, which aren't toy motivated but make good SAR dogs, and suggested I get started in tracking.
So, turns out I can train Sosuke for SAR after all! Yay! I will need a bunch of books and videos now to get started on my own.
And I agree with Losech, it would be great for the kai's reputation if he did good
I hope that everything works out and that you are able to work with him in SAR. Let us know how it goes!