@brada1878 If we ever do find Shakko, I would consider breeding Mika to him. I know that his story might scare potential puppy buyers, but he's honestly a great dog. I adore Shakko. It was just a shitty accident losing him. I still haven't given up on the little guy.
@StaticNfuzz I know my statement comes as totally against what I said before. I don't talk about Shakko a lot because this has been a horrific past few months and at times very emotional for me, but I think Shakko should be bred, and the more that I look at Mika and how different the two of them are look-wise, I think that they would produce nice pups. Mika has a good back end and eye set. Shakko has a great muzzle, coloring, and tail. Mika being a 34 pd. female (which seems to be a good size for a girl) would compliment Shakko's smaller male size. Both have well developed muscle tone and hocks, Mika more so than Shakko. She's a beast of muscle in her rear. It's nice!
My thing is that I own a Kai out of UKC lines that comes from a long line of dogs that were bred because they all had a look that one breeder made the standard for UKC showing dogs. I like to see Kais with different looks being bred, as long as they meet the KKA breed standard. I like to see what comes out of the breedings.
I didn't realize how much Koda strayed from the KKA dogs until I had him in front of Akashi and Shakko at the expo. It amazed me. He began looking very inbred to me. You can tell that a standard for Kais was set in the US, based on one person's preference, and it changed the breed. So creating breed preferences or characteristics that are preferred is not something I really want to see the direction of these new lines going.
Of course if I decided to breed Mika, I would do all the necessary health checks, and would be transparent about the results.
Well, last March one allrounder FCI judge, and highly esteemed judge all over the world, saw my Kais in the ring. And of course after the ring I wanted to hear her opinion from my dogs because she has judged Kais in Europe and in Canada. She really liked Nuuk! And she said that if she would haven't known what breed was in the ring, she wouldn't have identified Ife to Kai. It was really funny.
Not going to add much to this off topic, but this comment strikes me..
"do you think that there should be a set age like 5 months or 6 that breeders should mandate that puppies should be neutered by? Or that owners should be able to wait until their dogs mature fully before they are neutered?"
I really wished I could kept Saya intact till she was a year old or so not to breed, but to let her mature physically more. Maybe it would help her with her health issues..
Sadly the breeder's contract made it sound like if I didn't get her spayed at 6month and send the proof to the breeder then I'd have to send Saya back to her breeder..
I should have just bucked up and called her and see if she'd allow me to leave her intact for a bit longer.. I'd never allow her to roam while intact or in any danger of being bred I've been through it with Pearly my first boxer we let her stay intact till she was a year and then she was spayed.. She was pretty healthy joint wise actually compared to Junior my dad's boxer who was neutered at 6months.
I'm all for contracts, but breeders should take more time to talk to puppy buyers. When I got Saya it felt like she gave me Saya I signed some paper gave her money and she was off. I wish she was more personal and talked some I dunno. I learned a lot after getting Saya so I'm glad I went with her despite her health issues.
I plan get male dog and I hope to do vasectomy instead of neuter.. Wolves at wolf park in battleground gets a vasectomy if they need it done so I know there is a vet out there that does it.
I'd never want to see a kai ken in puppy mill situation ever it's sad the situation shiba inu are in.
I agree keeping an intact male or female isn't easy, but it can be done with work.
I'm also concern health wise with kai ken.
Yeah I agree things aren't set in stone and I do think it's good people will be responsible and allow their dog to mature before any decisions are made to breed. It's hard to tell if a dog is good health wise as pups and is great people are willing to help and be responsible.
One question will checks on joints and stuff be made before breeding happens?
The topic has gone a bit off topic this was about meet up I think maybe this should be continued in another thread talking about goals in kai ken breeding? I dunno.
A good discussion is nice though I guess we all want what's best for the breed.
I like the idea of "a KKA-sanctioned bi-yearly venue where KKA Kai Ken can be shown in front of a KKA judge in the USA."
Sounds like a great idea I wouldn't mind going as a spectator if it happens.
Still would like to meet a kai ken someday.. I've met shikoku, shiba and American akita from afar.
I'd love a second dog to be a companion to Bella and Saya and a hiking buddy.
okay 2 questions. 1. how in the world do you change the title of threads after you've posted them? 2. not to get all existential on everyone but who is this supreme Kai master that decides how big Kai are supposed to be? or is it kind of like a market/tradition mix? Personally, I like gigantic Gorilla-Kai like Goro :P
@Yandharr The same way you can edit your post. Just click on edit (of course it has to be your thread for you to be able to edit it). LOL thanks, Gorilla-Kai a new name for him
@Yandharr - Well, actually, for question two, you have hit on a very controversial issue. So, I can answer your question with a lot of information - or I can just answer with: the respective breed club within the parents club sets the standard which defines the appropriate size for the breed.
@brada1878 Is it controversial? Really? Well I guess the standard is in respect to steering away from Japan's, but I don't think anyone has had an issue with size as much as they have had with color. lmao.
I can only comment on my own behalf in regards to UKC breeders. I do not agree with the UKC standard. My breeding program is geared more toward breeding for the KKA standard. Truthfully most UKC judges do not even know what the kai standard is. I want my dogs to be able to perform their original function.
@sjp051993 Since I have the largest Kai I know of right now in the US, I'll speak up. I agree with Stacey. It doesn't offend me in any way that people want to stick to the KKA standard.
@Yandharr in the list of thread topics, if you mouse over one that you have started there is a little Edit box that appears on the right right end of the topic's rectangle, click that, good to go!
Wow, I missed all this, and of course I also have an intact male Kai, who may or may not be bred at some point.
But having read everything together, I have a couple of things to say. First, I didn't take Snf's comments at all as attacking anyone here, but as a real concern for the breed--any breed really--which I suspect comes out of the nightmarish situation Shibas are in now. I forget that not everyone here reads the Shiba forum, so you can't all see how dire the situation with the breed is. Now I may be simply reading Snf's comments in my own interpretation (so I'm not saying this is what was meant!) but I think it is a legitimate concern to be worried about what could happen to the breed. Of course we're not there and hopefully will not every be there, but if I take this conversation out of the context of Kai breeding and apply it to another breed (like Shibas!) yes, I'd be jumping in here asking people what the hell are they thinking? So I don't think it is a bad thing at all to remind people who may not have had to think about that it much that yes, there are a whole lot of questions to be considered with breeding, and it's not bad to look at, say, Shibas, as a warning, and be careful. So I think asking the questions, and perhaps making people aware of how bad this can get in other breeds (if they are not aware of that) is important. And it is important to have people think about how careful we need to be with intact dogs and who gets sold where and when. There are dogs from good breeders that somehow end up in mills (shibas) and so yes, as the population gets larger, and breeders have less first hand knowledge of who they are selling to, it might be even more important to have limited contracts)
That said, the dogs we are talking about are pups, and we are forum members, and know our very good breeder(s) well, and I don't think there is anything that needs to be done different right now. I wouldn't neuter my boy right now anyway--he's too young. When he's older, if Brad and Jen are interested in him and have dogs that he's not so closely related to and they'd like to breed him, then I'll bring him out. He's not as big as Goro, but he has pretty good brindling and color, and who knows, perhaps he'd be an asset to their program, if he passes all his health tests when that time comes. I haven't weighed him lately, but he's probably around 35 pounds or so, maybe a little under. He's a little taller than my female Shiba who is 32 pounds. He's got the thick Akashi tail and starting to get his face shape too. If not, we'll probably neuter him somewhere down the line. I wouldn't do it before a year anyway, so nothing much changes in how I would handle my dog, except that I'll probably keep him intact longer than I normally would.)
(So yes, to answer Nicole's question, all proper health tests will be done on the dogs before they are considered for breeding). Just for the record, Brad and Jen are very clear in their contracts and in discussion that IF they want the dog for breeding (still a big if) they want the tests done one the dogs.
AND wow, wish I was at the meet up! The dogs look great!
Comments
@StaticNfuzz I know my statement comes as totally against what I said before. I don't talk about Shakko a lot because this has been a horrific past few months and at times very emotional for me, but I think Shakko should be bred, and the more that I look at Mika and how different the two of them are look-wise, I think that they would produce nice pups. Mika has a good back end and eye set. Shakko has a great muzzle, coloring, and tail. Mika being a 34 pd. female (which seems to be a good size for a girl) would compliment Shakko's smaller male size. Both have well developed muscle tone and hocks, Mika more so than Shakko. She's a beast of muscle in her rear. It's nice!
My thing is that I own a Kai out of UKC lines that comes from a long line of dogs that were bred because they all had a look that one breeder made the standard for UKC showing dogs. I like to see Kais with different looks being bred, as long as they meet the KKA breed standard. I like to see what comes out of the breedings.
I didn't realize how much Koda strayed from the KKA dogs until I had him in front of Akashi and Shakko at the expo. It amazed me. He began looking very inbred to me. You can tell that a standard for Kais was set in the US, based on one person's preference, and it changed the breed. So creating breed preferences or characteristics that are preferred is not something I really want to see the direction of these new lines going.
Of course if I decided to breed Mika, I would do all the necessary health checks, and would be transparent about the results.
"do you think that there should be a set age like 5 months or 6 that breeders should mandate that puppies should be neutered by? Or that owners should be able to wait until their dogs mature fully before they are neutered?"
I really wished I could kept Saya intact till she was a year old or so not to breed, but to let her mature physically more. Maybe it would help her with her health issues..
Sadly the breeder's contract made it sound like if I didn't get her spayed at 6month and send the proof to the breeder then I'd have to send Saya back to her breeder..
I should have just bucked up and called her and see if she'd allow me to leave her intact for a bit longer.. I'd never allow her to roam while intact or in any danger of being bred I've been through it with Pearly my first boxer we let her stay intact till she was a year and then she was spayed.. She was pretty healthy joint wise actually compared to Junior my dad's boxer who was neutered at 6months.
I'm all for contracts, but breeders should take more time to talk to puppy buyers. When I got Saya it felt like she gave me Saya I signed some paper gave her money and she was off. I wish she was more personal and talked some I dunno. I learned a lot after getting Saya so I'm glad I went with her despite her health issues.
I plan get male dog and I hope to do vasectomy instead of neuter.. Wolves at wolf park in battleground gets a vasectomy if they need it done so I know there is a vet out there that does it.
I'd never want to see a kai ken in puppy mill situation ever it's sad the situation shiba inu are in.
I agree keeping an intact male or female isn't easy, but it can be done with work.
I'm also concern health wise with kai ken.
Yeah I agree things aren't set in stone and I do think it's good people will be responsible and allow their dog to mature before any decisions are made to breed. It's hard to tell if a dog is good health wise as pups and is great people are willing to help and be responsible.
One question will checks on joints and stuff be made before breeding happens?
The topic has gone a bit off topic this was about meet up I think maybe this should be continued in another thread talking about goals in kai ken breeding? I dunno.
A good discussion is nice though I guess we all want what's best for the breed.
I like the idea of "a KKA-sanctioned bi-yearly venue where KKA Kai Ken can be shown in front of a KKA judge in the USA."
Sounds like a great idea I wouldn't mind going as a spectator if it happens.
Still would like to meet a kai ken someday.. I've met shikoku, shiba and American akita from afar.
I'd love a second dog to be a companion to Bella and Saya and a hiking buddy.
1. how in the world do you change the title of threads after you've posted them?
2. not to get all existential on everyone but who is this supreme Kai master that decides how big Kai are supposed to be? or is it kind of like a market/tradition mix? Personally, I like gigantic Gorilla-Kai like Goro :P
Let me know if you want more info.
----
But having read everything together, I have a couple of things to say. First, I didn't take Snf's comments at all as attacking anyone here, but as a real concern for the breed--any breed really--which I suspect comes out of the nightmarish situation Shibas are in now. I forget that not everyone here reads the Shiba forum, so you can't all see how dire the situation with the breed is. Now I may be simply reading Snf's comments in my own interpretation (so I'm not saying this is what was meant!) but I think it is a legitimate concern to be worried about what could happen to the breed. Of course we're not there and hopefully will not every be there, but if I take this conversation out of the context of Kai breeding and apply it to another breed (like Shibas!) yes, I'd be jumping in here asking people what the hell are they thinking? So I don't think it is a bad thing at all to remind people who may not have had to think about that it much that yes, there are a whole lot of questions to be considered with breeding, and it's not bad to look at, say, Shibas, as a warning, and be careful. So I think asking the questions, and perhaps making people aware of how bad this can get in other breeds (if they are not aware of that) is important. And it is important to have people think about how careful we need to be with intact dogs and who gets sold where and when. There are dogs from good breeders that somehow end up in mills (shibas) and so yes, as the population gets larger, and breeders have less first hand knowledge of who they are selling to, it might be even more important to have limited contracts)
That said, the dogs we are talking about are pups, and we are forum members, and know our very good breeder(s) well, and I don't think there is anything that needs to be done different right now. I wouldn't neuter my boy right now anyway--he's too young. When he's older, if Brad and Jen are interested in him and have dogs that he's not so closely related to and they'd like to breed him, then I'll bring him out. He's not as big as Goro, but he has pretty good brindling and color, and who knows, perhaps he'd be an asset to their program, if he passes all his health tests when that time comes. I haven't weighed him lately, but he's probably around 35 pounds or so, maybe a little under. He's a little taller than my female Shiba who is 32 pounds. He's got the thick Akashi tail and starting to get his face shape too. If not, we'll probably neuter him somewhere down the line. I wouldn't do it before a year anyway, so nothing much changes in how I would handle my dog, except that I'll probably keep him intact longer than I normally would.)
(So yes, to answer Nicole's question, all proper health tests will be done on the dogs before they are considered for breeding). Just for the record, Brad and Jen are very clear in their contracts and in discussion that IF they want the dog for breeding (still a big if) they want the tests done one the dogs.
AND wow, wish I was at the meet up! The dogs look great!