it saddens me that people don't understand what he's getting across, but that's life and everyone is entitled to they're own opinion. me, i believe in his philosophy, and i use his methods. It has worked for me, but there are some correction that i've learned are not right for my dogs and i had to find a different approach to correct them. thats training for you. got to find the method thats right for your dog and one you are comfortable with. that's how you become closer to your dog and build a forever bond.
@renae - Could you explain to us what we don't understand? What is he "getting across" that we are missing?
Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you could back-up the above requested info with scientific studies in support of his methods and behavioral understanding.
I've made this request on the Shiba side too. I'd like the CM supports to come forward with scientific studies that validate CM's methods and alpha/dominance theories.
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As posted on the Shiba side, here is the scientific studies/write-ups against CM and his techniques...
Here are official position statements and letters, from leading scientists and associations in the behavioral community, condemning CM and companies who support his methods...
Renae - what methods have you used on your dog that made the dog improve it's behavior? What type of behavior was the dog exhibiting that you were unhappy with enough to try Cesar's methods? Which methods did you try on your dog that did NOT improve it's behavior?
brada1878-Could you explain to us what we don't understand? What is he "getting across" that we are missing?
Every time some one post this kind of discussion, they always say that the words submission, dominance, and discipline are bad or are taboo. What he means about submission, yes its to follow and dominance is the one who leads. Its like the children are the submissive one's in the house and the parents are the dominant ones. Everyone needs discipline, right? To me I think so. For dogs it giving them boundaries and limitation, just like kids need boundaries and limitation. Some people don't like dog begging for food while the person is eating or some don't like dogs jumping on people. By having the dog relaxing for a distance when someone is eating and not having the dog jump on people, that discipline. And if the dog does something that's you do not approve, just give them a correction, that's discipline. It's his way of explaining it using those words.
There was also the comment about Cesar saying "taking the power away from the dog." Sorry but I kind of had to laugh at that, because I don't want my dog running my life. I should run my own life and they should follow in there own little way. I don't mind my dogs silly personality at all but I make the decision what we do, where we go, and how long we stay. You wouldn't want your kids running the house or your life(at some extent, kids do run the parents life, but by needing to take care for them and a fulfilling there essential needs, not what they want and on they're terms), do you? Why allow dog to do that?
brada1878-Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you could back-up the above requested info with scientific studies in support of his methods and behavioral understanding.
To be honest Brad, I don't have any scientific studies to support it, only my experience. Yeah, I know that doesn't help me out at all, but you can't always believe the experts. They can be wrong too. Its how we humans learn about the world. Trial and error. lol. I read and watch from all different kinds of methods and do use them, but when it comes down too it, I learn more from working with the dogs and watching how they behave around others.
I've also notice that politics and politician have gotten into this argument as well. What most of them got to say means nothing to me.
kwyld-what methods have you used on your dog that made the dog improve it's behavior? What type of behavior was the dog exhibiting that you were unhappy with? Which methods did you try on your dog that did not improve it's behavior?
For your first question, I've used his shhh, but I napping my finger works better snapping the dogs out of whatever they are doing that I don't approve of. When they are in a low level of excitement or attention, i do a correction with the leash. Its not hard, just a quick jerk from the leash towards me to snap them out when we are on a walk. It works if you have the right energy and you're calm and assertive. Kiyo has done pretty well with it. She doesn't pull and walk along side with you, especially with my little cousins.
The main behavior issue I have at my house is nervous and uncertain which leads to them becoming afraid. The 2 older dogs have a major issue with it, but i can't do anything about it because they are my parents dogs and they let them get away with a lot of stuff. Our shiba/mix is fearful of new and strange places and things. He has panic attacks when I take him to school, but follows me around or sits by the door. Our american staffordshire/mix is nervous of outsiders and will attack if cornered or he doesn't trust the animal or person. And there's nothing I can do about it because my parents think they are fine..... It me to hurts to watch them like that. They deserve better and can be happier if they weren't afraid.
Anyways, to your last question, here's one method that didn't work for me. When I was trying to train Reese(american staffordshire/mix) to not react to other dogs on walks, I tried to snap him out of it, but back then I had really weak energy, so he took over and was at a higher level where I couldn't control him. As much as I snapped the leash he pulled. We would stay till he calm down. And it continue to happen every time we saw another dog and I became frustrated and upset. With that I was no good to help improve his behavior so we would take the short cut home. And overtime he started to act the same way with people and I did even walk him to make him like that. I found out one night walking with my parents and the dogs that when Reese would act up like that, my dad got really mad and hit him pretty hard. ( no wonder he's scared now more then ever ) Me, I do the Cesar's touch(I don't hit him, just a firm touch) and wait till Reese was calm and I would award him for being calm by petting him or on rare occasions with a treat. Now I don't do much with Reese and Indy because my parents and I have different belief, so I work mainly with Kiyo.
Pretty much were I messed up was my energy level being to low. I have a low self esteem and for the past 2 years I've been working to improve it and it has shown through my dogs, but still have a long way to go. The energy you project when you're with your dog is key to helping and working with your dog.
Hopefully I answered your guys questions. If not just tell me. I'll try to answer them better. ^-^
"Now I don't do much with Reese and Indy because my parents and I have different belief, so I work mainly with Kiyo" Out of curiosity what are your parents differing beliefs?
JessicaRabbit-Out of curiosity what are your parents differing beliefs?
Pretty much all affection, no exercise (they know the dogs need exercise but they think they get enough going in the backyard) and hardly no discipline. Don't take the dogs anywhere till they have all there vaccines completed when they were puppies. Hardly any socialization or exposure to the outside world. They just expect they will be fine(that fine to expect a good behavior from the dog but without exercise, discipline, and socialization forget it).
@renae - I appreciate your honest response. I'm disappointed you couldn't provide any science to back-up his methods or your thoughts, as I honestly want someone to provide that type of info, but I respect your opinion and choices.
I respect CM too, to be honest. I mean, I respect anyone who wants to do the best for their dogs (or kids) even if I don't understand or agree with their methods/execution.
I guess what gets me about what you wrote is 2 things...
1) Your description of "discipline" and behaviors you don't like from a dog... IMHO, those behaviors you mention fall under the label of "manners", and it's up to the owner to teach their dog to have those manners. I guess I don't understand what this has to do with dominance/submission or even CM's methods specifically - aren't all trainers out to teach their dogs good manners? Are you not just simply advocating that people train their dogs to have good manners? (which, I would argue, is not a exclusively a "Dog Whisperer" ambition)
2) In regards to your comments about experts being wrong... That one I find kinda ironic within the context of this discussion. CM is said to be an expert too, no?
Anyway, what gets me about what you wrote in that section is this - you mention your experience, and that you follow CM due to your experience with dogs and using his techniques.
These other experts mentioned above, their knowledge also comes from experience - and I'd argue that their combined experience is more than any of us on this forum. I just find it surprising when people are willing to overlook that level of experience and education in favor of a concept that's directly condoned by it.
I've also notice that politics and politician have gotten into this argument as well. What most of them got to say means nothing to me. >> Really? I have not seen any politicians getting involved with this debate... You've got me interested, tell me more, please.
There are many things I'd like to respond to that you've posted @renae, but this one is one of my biggest pet peeves. You said "dominance is the one who leads". CM may be trying to convince you of that, but he is absolutely wrong. Dominance has nothing to do with leadership. Dominance actually means "priority access to a limited resource." Further, it has nothing to do with physical or mental intimidation either. Quite simply, dominance means that one dog who values a particular object or space highly gets to choose to posses that object or space even if another dog already posses it. It can change from object or space to object or space. One dog may value tennis balls very highly while another values food very highly. I observe this in my own dogs on a daily basis. They all know that Joey is dominant when it comes to tennis balls. They are his favorite thing in the world, and he gets to choose when and where he plays with them. Lucy on the other hand, is dominant when it comes to food. The other dogs know to stay away when food is coming because Lucy gets first dibs. It's that simple. There's no fighting, no biting, no kicking, no punching, no exercise, discipline, or affection, and no other 3-word sound bite that CM has brain washed the masses into believing.
So, when people like me start saying that dominance and submission are bad words, it's because people like you are using them incorrectly. Dominance---and I mean real dominance, not the bastardized and incorrect CM definition of dominance---is not a bad thing. Physical or mental intimidation, which are what CM preaches are the tools to achieve dominance over a dog, are actually bad things. You related CM's mantra of dominance over dogs to dominance over children. Would you ever choke, punch, or kick your child into submission? If not, how can you compare CM's methods to raising a child?
Tara, that really made me laugh. It's true, when I hear dominance and submission I always think were talking about dogs with fetishes... *lol*
One thing I've continually been puzzled by in terms of the CM methods are the emphasis on "energy" which is pretty vague and almost "new agey" for someone like CM. It seems to me that you could blame a lot of training problems on not having the right "energy" whatever that is.
@dlroberts - Wait, I thought dominance had nothing to do with "physical or mental intimidation". :oP
Really tho, I agree with your post.
I would add that dominance would only come to play in a case where both dogs value the resource equally. I would argue that a dog giving up an item to avoid conflict simply meant that dog didn't value the item as much as the other dog, which has nothing to do with dominance. Avoiding a conflict is not submission.
In most cases, we humans would interfere long before dogs were ever able to have a "draw" over a resource anyway. Thus circumventing the issue of dominance completely, no?
I really don't agree with comparing raising a child with raising a dog. I don't raise my child with boundaries, I raise my child so he can create his own boundaries. He's too young to understand all of it yet but he gets a reason for why I'm telling him to do something. It's not "don't touch that!" it's "don't touch that, it's hot and you'll hurt yourself" and so forth. I don't know about you but I don't sit there explaining to my dog why I want him to sit, he just has to. Obviously I would be training with treats in the beginning but he wont be getting a treat his entire life everytime I want him to sit. I say something, I expect him to listen. I am teaching my child to think for himself and I'm teaching my dog to listen to me.
Hey Renae, thanks for your comments. Just a few things I wanted to point out. You mentioned you use the shh verbal punishment, the finger touches and the leash jerks to stop your dog from doing the unwanted behavior.
By using a positive punishment technique like that, you most likely will get the dog to stop what it's doing at that very moment. You are not unfortunatly teaching your dog a more acceptable behavior to replace it with.
Your dog most likely doesn't pull on leash walks because he is afraid and anticipating a leash pop. Wouldn't it be kinder to teach your dog to walk next to you because he is anticipating a reward instead?
Counter conditioning your dog to something he is anxious of or fearful of works more efficiently. So this means pairing something really really good with that fearful or anxiety producing stimuli. If the dog is fearful of strangers, you pair the sight of strangers with filet mignon. If you start at a large enough distance and pair the two together, you will modify the dog's behavior and change it's emotional reponse to the anxiety producing stimuli from "Oh he's scary" to "Oh seeing him means I get filet!" This is science based learning. It's humane and gentle. These are just basics in teaching your dog a more appropriate behavior and what I'm trying to get at is that using Cesar's punishment based techniques are not teaching the dog anything, it's just making the dog stop what's it's doing at that moment, and it's not addressing the underlying motivation for the innapropriate behavior in the first place.
Does this make sense Renae?
And if you ask me, when it comes to "having the right energy" when working with your dog, don't you think a positive, kind approach is a better choice than a negative one? Why break down the bond you have with your dog when you don't have to?
All of those links posted above support a better way to communicate with your dog. Science is constantly changing, people are learning new ways to communicate with their dogs every day, Cesar on the other hand isn't teaching anything new, he's sticking steadfast to his old ways. He's way behind when it comes to dog training and behavior.
Furthermore, the dogs Cesar works with in his show have not been taught and reinforced the correct way to behave in the first place. The dogs don't know what they are doing is wrong, they just keep perfecting the behavior they use to best cope with the situation they are faced with. So Cesar "corrects", "disciplines", "sets boundries", whatever you want to call it, and the dog shuts down and doesn't know what to do, so it shrinks like a violet to avoid feeling uncomfortable again. Just because a dog is obedient and lies down when the scary skateboard rolls past because he's been poked 50 times with stubby fingers, doesn't mean the dog is better.
He's laying down and probably panting, frozen, drooling, and still very scared of the skateboard. If you are patient and take the extra steps to use science based learning techniques, the dog will then eventually not be afraid of the skateboard anymore.
You know... I posed a question on the Shiba-side version of this thread about a week ago. And not one person who stated they were an advocate of CM's techniques answered my question...
So I thought I would try it here. I am honestly curious to hear responses, so if you do use Millan's methods, please provide your opinions and reasonings.
Here is the quote from the Shiba-side:
I have a question for those of you who approve of aversive methods of training...
If you could receive the same result (or a BETTER result) using positive methods of training, would you choose to continue to use aversive methods?
If so, why? And if so, why not try the positive training methods instead?
@renae I have to give you a lot of credit for speaking up for what you believe in. I think there are more people on this forum who do use these methods but might not say it because of the wider culture adopted by many vocal owners on here.
I have never found a reason to use his methods, and believe that positive training techniques fit better for my home and with my relationship with my dog. I would encourage you to take a look at more positive methods. I think you will find that you will get great results with them.
brada1787-1) Your description of "discipline" and behaviors you don't like from a dog... IMHO, those behaviors you mention fall under the label of "manners", and it's up to the owner to teach their dog to have those manners. I guess I don't understand what this has to do with dominance/submission or even CM's methods specifically - aren't all trainers out to teach their dogs good manners? Are you not just simply advocating that people train their dogs to have good manners? (which, I would argue, is not a exclusively a "Dog Whisperer" ambition)
Yeah probably bad examples. LoL But its what came to mind. Yes it is up to the owner what the dog is allowed to do or not to do. To me, I don't like my dogs begging at my feet so I taught them to sit a couple of feet away from me when I'm eating but I don't mind them jumping on me. Its all preference to the owner. But Cesar isn't there train the dogs but to help change the unwanted behavior to a favorable behavior.
2) In regards to your comments about experts being wrong... That one I find kinda ironic within the context of this discussion. CM is said to be an expert too, no?
Yes, Cesar is considered an expert and he could be wrong about things too, but some of the methods I've used from him, have worked. I also read other methods. Trying to be well rounded. Being a student Vet Tech also helps too. Getting plenty of experience with other dogs and how they behave and many articles about dog behavior. But like I said before its all trial and error. If I'm wrong then I will change to something that works better. I'm open to new things and I'll try it out. If it works, it works and I will use it more. If it doesn't, it doesn't and got to find something else.
These other experts mentioned above, their knowledge also comes from experience - and I'd argue that their combined experience is more than any of us on this forum. I just find it surprising when people are willing to overlook that level of experience and education in favor of a concept that's directly condoned by it.
I haven't read all of them yet. Had surgery today and was busy trying to get ready for it. ^-^; Anyways, I try to read all that is out there, not just Cesar, and my instructors go over it at school as well from there experiences and from the many studies. I just read, watch videos, listen to others experiences and from my own experience, i use what seems right to me and what's right for the dog i'm working with.
>> Really? I have not seen any politicians getting involved with this debate... You've got me interested, tell me more, please.
I read the article and the people who were using Cesar methods, used it horribly. I would never do that to my dogs. That was totally extreme and people that need more education on handling there dogs, which it seems they got. I'm still shock about the shar-pei and the dog walker.
dlroberts-CM may be trying to convince you of that, but he is absolutely wrong. Dominance has nothing to do with leadership. Dominance actually means "priority access to a limited resource."Quite simply, dominance means that one dog who values a particular object or space highly gets to choose to posses that object or space even if another dog already posses it.
He's not convincing me anything, but yes I was wrong to just put to lead. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful how I word things. And your right that about a dog that is much higher energy taking what they want from another. I see it all the time with my dogs and other dogs.
dlroberts-So, when people like me start saying that dominance and submission are bad words, it's because people like you are using them incorrectly. Dominance---and I mean real dominance, not the bastardized and incorrect CM definition of dominance---is not a bad thing. Physical or mental intimidation, which are what CM preaches are the tools to achieve dominance over a dog, are actually bad things. Would you ever choke, punch, or kick your child into submission? If not, how can you compare CM's methods to raising a child?
Ok sorry but you are taking it to the extreme there. I would never choke, punch, or kick my dog or child. Think before you speak please. Its quite rude. Maybe how I worded dominance wasn't whole but I'm not using it incorrectly. I am not using physical and mental intimidation on my dogs, I expect them to obey me when I give them a command. The video above was a bit to rough and I don't believe doing that to my dog, but it has happen with me with Reese. He never tried to bite me but he was pulling so hard that he was doing it to himself. That another reason why I stopped working with Reese because it wasn't changing because my parents behavior.
ShibaMistress-One thing I've continually been puzzled by in terms of the CM methods are the emphasis on "energy" which is pretty vague and almost "new agey" for someone like CM. It seems to me that you could blame a lot of training problems on not having the right "energy" whatever that is.
Well Cesar isn't the only one that use that term. I hear it from a lot of people in the animal field. My teachers talk about having the right energy around animals. The energy they tell us to use positive thinking and being confident in what we are doing.
kwlyd-By using a positive punishment technique like that, you most likely will get the dog to stop what it's doing at that very moment. You are not unfortunatly teaching your dog a more acceptable behavior to replace it with.
I'm sorry but that doesn't work. You can have a positive punishment. You only encourage the bad behavior.
kwlyd-Your dog most likely doesn't pull on leash walks because he is afraid and anticipating a leash pop. Wouldn't it be kinder to teach your dog to walk next to you because he is anticipating a reward instead?
Ok I'm sorry, but you don't know how my dogs are when they are afraid. So you can't say that. I know when my dogs are afraid and I would wait till they relax before moving forward with something that gets them curious like a toy or a treat, but they still have over come there fear. She walks fine with happiness and confidence. I know the difference. And her reward after the walk is affection from me, water and much needed relaxing nap next to me.
kwlyd-Science is constantly changing, people are learning new ways to communicate with their dogs every day, Cesar on the other hand isn't teaching anything new, he's sticking steadfast to his old ways. He's way behind when it comes to dog training and behavior.
I disagree about Cesar being stuck in the old ways. He also uses the new ways as well. He always uses positive association and training with some of his cases. It just depends on the dogs needs.
kwlyd-Just because a dog is obedient and lies down when the scary skateboard rolls past because he's been poked 50 times with stubby fingers, doesn't mean the dog is better. He's laying down and probably panting, frozen, drooling, and still very scared of the skateboard. If you are patient and take the extra steps to use science based learning techniques, the dog will then eventually not be afraid of the skateboard anymore.
From my experience your method only encourages the bad behavior, being fearful. Nothing is instant and the panting and drooling is all the fight the dog put up to do its normal behavior and that's not healthy to be in that state of mind. I can tell you people do what Cesar does to get over fear, but dogs don't understand what's going on only knowing to fear the skateboard (continuing your example). So they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler that its not there to hurt them and they can be relax around it.
tjbart17-I have to give you a lot of credit for speaking up for what you believe in. I think there are more people on this forum who do use these methods but might not say it because of the wider culture adopted by many vocal owners on here. I would encourage you to take a look at more positive methods. I think yo will find that you will get great results with them.
Thanks. Yeah it took a lot of guts on my part to say something but some one had to shake things up even though its tough and responding to all these comments is really exhausting....... x_x LoL But like I've stated above, I don't just use Cesar's method, I do use positive reinforcement and others that feels right to me and my dogs. I want to do the best for them, that's all I want.
Anymore questions or response to my beliefs? Dang.... you guys have a lot to say about it. Wasn't expecting this but oh well. LOL It's quite interesting.
I'm sure others will probably address this in much greater detail but I need to deal with this statement:
"I'm sorry but that doesn't work. You can[t] have a positive punishment. You only encourage the bad behavior. "
This means to me there is a breakdown between your knowledge of Learning Theory and what we are discussing here. I am not trying to badmouth you but it would help to learn the proper terms before beginning an argument. Learning Theory has a basis in behaviorism and these terms relate to operant conditioning. First, there is "reinforcement" and "punishment" which are easy to understand. Reinforcement serves to increase the desired behavior while punishment decreases the behavior. Then there is "positive" and "negative" which are often confused - positive here means "adding something" while negative means "subtracting". So when you put the two halves of the expressions together you get a certain method, so to speak. Positive reinforcement seeks to get a behavior to happen more often by adding something: for example, a lure/treat is given when a dog performs a command like sit. Negative punishment would be taking away something in order to decrease the behavior, like when you ignore a dog for doing something you don't like or put them in time out. Positive punishment is introducing a stimulus in order to decrease the behavior, so for example a leash jerk. Negative reinforcement is the most tricky to understand; it involves removing an adversive stimulus in order to get the desired behavior. I can't think of an example for this one, but maybe someone else can provide one.
Is negative reinforcement similar to what is used in CAT training? I was thinking of Brad's examples of Blue and approaching dogs. The approaching dog is the adversive stimulus, and when Blue begins reacting, the other dog is removed so Blue can relax/go to work (sorry if I got this totally wrong Brad!)
@lindsayt I thought when Blue was doing CAT, the dog was removed when Blue did behaviors they wanted (like stop barking). Thus he was learning that the less he reacted to the dog, the sooner that dog goes away.
Damn, I wish the search function was better, I was trying to one of the many great posts that Brad had made explaining Positive/Negative Reinforcement/Punishment (so he doesn't have to type it out again), and I could have sworn he started a discussion explaining it but I couldn't find anything.
@renae I only have a few minutes before my train leaves but real quick, the political leanings of a publication does not make all of their articles political. I am (if someone really felt it necessary to label me) a liberal. However if there is an interesting article about nutrition on Fox news (and indeed I have read nutrition articles on Fox news' site), I will not deem it political because their leanings generally differ from mine.
The methods @kwyld described are considered the most scientifically advanced and most accepted methods of training in the scientific community. If they have not worked for you it is because they were not taught to you properly. They do work. Period. And they have the data and evidence to prove it. Dear friend of mine is a behaviorist for the ASPCA, she and I have talked about positive reinforcement training naysayers before. And the example she has given me (I believe Ian Dunbar makes this example in one of his TED talks too) is wild animal trainers; particularly bear and lions. Those trainers figured out a long time ago that punishment training not only didn't work it got them mauled if not killed (angry bears or lions are much scarier then a PO'd JRT or shiba). When I was in the shelter full time, I learned from first hand experience forcing a 100lb scared dog does not work (and I am the most confident woman you may ever meet). But teaching a dog that good things happened when they were near me eventually got them to trust me. Furthermore, punishment based methods are banned on film sets that want to have the "none of the animals here were harmed in anyway" disclaimer after their film.
Real quick story. There was a dog at my shelter. She was an abuse case. She was TERRIFIED of people. For one week, I sat next to her pen quietly and gently tossed treats to her. By day three she would creep up to take them from me. By day seven she would let me pet her. Then the shelter brought in a man who's tag line is "RI's Very Own Dog Whisperer". Uses CM techniques and was trained by him. He said this dog just needed to be forced from her shell. He put on gloves and charged into the kennel and dragged this dog out. She stood their trembling next to him. She urinated on herself. He said "see, problem solved" (this is technically called "flooding," one of his preferred methods). He walked her back and forth barking commands and hisses at her. The next day the dog was back in her corner. She would still come up to me, but now snarled and bore her teeth at any man who approached her kennel. She was euthanized. And the director of animal control at the time admitted to me, that he was certain that that trainer signed this poor dogs death sentence. He ruined her. That trainer is no longer welcome in ANY of RI's shelters.
@lindsayt & @Calia - Yes, CAT is Negative Reinforcement. CAT reinforces the behaviors you want to see by removing the thing that stresses the dog.
(The exact opposite of Negative Reinforcement - like CAT - is Positive Punishment, where you add something to punish the dog, like using a shock collar to shock the dog when the dog displays a behavior you do not like - like barking/lunging at another dog. This is the method CM uses most frequently in his show - tho usually he is using a touch, kick, or leash correction and not a shock collar.)
BAT is the "positive" version of CAT, in BAT, which uses Positive Reinforcement, you add reinforcement (like a treat) for behaviors you want to see.
What makes BAT kinda special is that it bridges Operant Conditioning with Classical Conditioning as you are doing both during the exercise: treating the dog for a behavior you like (not reacting to the other dog) while also feeding the dog when the stress-trigger (the other dog) is present (which is associating the stress-trigger with food - via classical conditioning).
Ok, I do want to make this absolutely clear with some of you who think I don't use positive reinforcement because obviously you are not reading my responses very well. I do use positive reinforcement and some have worked for me and some haven't. And I have learned many different kind of methods and use some that have worked for me in the past. I'm also a Vet Tech student, so all the scientific studies I do get some from school and if I'm ever allowed to go to a conference, I would attend the train/behavior seminars and they would be talking about more about there scientific studies. I believe in positive reinforcement too, but I can utilize both Cesar way and positive reinforcement. You take what feels right and works for you and your dog. And that's that. When I have a behavior issue, I look it up and see what solutions are out there. I even come here and see what you guys say about a behavior issue and a solution. Then I try them out. If one doesn't work, I start over again with a technique. I'm not a one way street.
Sorry about that, but its a little frustrating for me that I have to repeat myself.
nekopan-This means to me there is a breakdown between your knowledge of Learning Theory and what we are discussing here. I am not trying to badmouth you but it would help to learn the proper terms before beginning an argument.
No, no, your fine. Thanks for defining them. I can see that how you explain that. I probably read it wrong or I jumbled it up in my head some how. Sorry, my bad.
kwlyd- thanks for the link. I'm trying to still read from the ones above but I'll read it.
Comments
Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you could back-up the above requested info with scientific studies in support of his methods and behavioral understanding.
I've made this request on the Shiba side too. I'd like the CM supports to come forward with scientific studies that validate CM's methods and alpha/dominance theories.
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As posted on the Shiba side, here is the scientific studies/write-ups against CM and his techniques...
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articles/docs/DominanceArticle.pdf
http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/advanstar/vm0908/#/32
http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=254
http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=225
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/cesar-millan-and-merial/
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid
Here are official position statements and letters, from leading scientists and associations in the behavioral community, condemning CM and companies who support his methods...
AVSAB
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/acvb merialmilanletter09.pdf
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/merialletter6-10.pdf
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/avsab-rspca press release 12-15-09.pdf
ESVCE
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/bayer_uk_dog_whisperer.pdf
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/nat_geog_dog_whispererus.pdf
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/merial_us_dog_whisperer.pdf
CCPDT
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/09-06-24merial letter ccpdt.doc
SVBT
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/svbt letter to merial.doc
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Every time some one post this kind of discussion, they always say that the words submission, dominance, and discipline are bad or are taboo. What he means about submission, yes its to follow and dominance is the one who leads. Its like the children are the submissive one's in the house and the parents are the dominant ones. Everyone needs discipline, right? To me I think so. For dogs it giving them boundaries and limitation, just like kids need boundaries and limitation. Some people don't like dog begging for food while the person is eating or some don't like dogs jumping on people. By having the dog relaxing for a distance when someone is eating and not having the dog jump on people, that discipline. And if the dog does something that's you do not approve, just give them a correction, that's discipline. It's his way of explaining it using those words.
There was also the comment about Cesar saying "taking the power away from the dog." Sorry but I kind of had to laugh at that, because I don't want my dog running my life. I should run my own life and they should follow in there own little way. I don't mind my dogs silly personality at all but I make the decision what we do, where we go, and how long we stay. You wouldn't want your kids running the house or your life(at some extent, kids do run the parents life, but by needing to take care for them and a fulfilling there essential needs, not what they want and on they're terms), do you? Why allow dog to do that?
brada1878-Also, it would be greatly appreciated if you could back-up the above requested info with scientific studies in support of his methods and behavioral understanding.
To be honest Brad, I don't have any scientific studies to support it, only my experience. Yeah, I know that doesn't help me out at all, but you can't always believe the experts. They can be wrong too. Its how we humans learn about the world. Trial and error. lol. I read and watch from all different kinds of methods and do use them, but when it comes down too it, I learn more from working with the dogs and watching how they behave around others.
I've also notice that politics and politician have gotten into this argument as well. What most of them got to say means nothing to me.
kwyld-what methods have you used on your dog that made the dog improve it's behavior? What type of behavior was the dog exhibiting that you were unhappy with? Which methods did you try on your dog that did not improve it's behavior?
For your first question, I've used his shhh, but I napping my finger works better snapping the dogs out of whatever they are doing that I don't approve of. When they are in a low level of excitement or attention, i do a correction with the leash. Its not hard, just a quick jerk from the leash towards me to snap them out when we are on a walk. It works if you have the right energy and you're calm and assertive. Kiyo has done pretty well with it. She doesn't pull and walk along side with you, especially with my little cousins.
The main behavior issue I have at my house is nervous and uncertain which leads to them becoming afraid. The 2 older dogs have a major issue with it, but i can't do anything about it because they are my parents dogs and they let them get away with a lot of stuff. Our shiba/mix is fearful of new and strange places and things. He has panic attacks when I take him to school, but follows me around or sits by the door. Our american staffordshire/mix is nervous of outsiders and will attack if cornered or he doesn't trust the animal or person. And there's nothing I can do about it because my parents think they are fine.....
Anyways, to your last question, here's one method that didn't work for me. When I was trying to train Reese(american staffordshire/mix) to not react to other dogs on walks, I tried to snap him out of it, but back then I had really weak energy, so he took over and was at a higher level where I couldn't control him. As much as I snapped the leash he pulled. We would stay till he calm down. And it continue to happen every time we saw another dog and I became frustrated and upset. With that I was no good to help improve his behavior so we would take the short cut home. And overtime he started to act the same way with people and I did even walk him to make him like that. I found out one night walking with my parents and the dogs that when Reese would act up like that, my dad got really mad and hit him pretty hard. ( no wonder he's scared now more then ever
Pretty much were I messed up was my energy level being to low. I have a low self esteem and for the past 2 years I've been working to improve it and it has shown through my dogs, but still have a long way to go. The energy you project when you're with your dog is key to helping and working with your dog.
Hopefully I answered your guys questions. If not just tell me. I'll try to answer them better. ^-^
Out of curiosity what are your parents differing beliefs?
Pretty much all affection, no exercise (they know the dogs need exercise but they think they get enough going in the backyard) and hardly no discipline. Don't take the dogs anywhere till they have all there vaccines completed when they were puppies. Hardly any socialization or exposure to the outside world. They just expect they will be fine(that fine to expect a good behavior from the dog but without exercise, discipline, and socialization forget it).
I respect CM too, to be honest. I mean, I respect anyone who wants to do the best for their dogs (or kids) even if I don't understand or agree with their methods/execution.
I guess what gets me about what you wrote is 2 things...
1) Your description of "discipline" and behaviors you don't like from a dog... IMHO, those behaviors you mention fall under the label of "manners", and it's up to the owner to teach their dog to have those manners. I guess I don't understand what this has to do with dominance/submission or even CM's methods specifically - aren't all trainers out to teach their dogs good manners? Are you not just simply advocating that people train their dogs to have good manners? (which, I would argue, is not a exclusively a "Dog Whisperer" ambition)
2) In regards to your comments about experts being wrong... That one I find kinda ironic within the context of this discussion. CM is said to be an expert too, no?
Anyway, what gets me about what you wrote in that section is this - you mention your experience, and that you follow CM due to your experience with dogs and using his techniques.
These other experts mentioned above, their knowledge also comes from experience - and I'd argue that their combined experience is more than any of us on this forum. I just find it surprising when people are willing to overlook that level of experience and education in favor of a concept that's directly condoned by it.
I've also notice that politics and politician have gotten into this argument as well. What most of them got to say means nothing to me.
>> Really? I have not seen any politicians getting involved with this debate... You've got me interested, tell me more, please.
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So, when people like me start saying that dominance and submission are bad words, it's because people like you are using them incorrectly. Dominance---and I mean real dominance, not the bastardized and incorrect CM definition of dominance---is not a bad thing. Physical or mental intimidation, which are what CM preaches are the tools to achieve dominance over a dog, are actually bad things. You related CM's mantra of dominance over dogs to dominance over children. Would you ever choke, punch, or kick your child into submission? If not, how can you compare CM's methods to raising a child?
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One thing I've continually been puzzled by in terms of the CM methods are the emphasis on "energy" which is pretty vague and almost "new agey" for someone like CM. It seems to me that you could blame a lot of training problems on not having the right "energy" whatever that is.
Really tho, I agree with your post.
I would add that dominance would only come to play in a case where both dogs value the resource equally. I would argue that a dog giving up an item to avoid conflict simply meant that dog didn't value the item as much as the other dog, which has nothing to do with dominance. Avoiding a conflict is not submission.
In most cases, we humans would interfere long before dogs were ever able to have a "draw" over a resource anyway. Thus circumventing the issue of dominance completely, no?
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By using a positive punishment technique like that, you most likely will get the dog to stop what it's doing at that very moment. You are not unfortunatly teaching your dog a more acceptable behavior to replace it with.
Your dog most likely doesn't pull on leash walks because he is afraid and anticipating a leash pop. Wouldn't it be kinder to teach your dog to walk next to you because he is anticipating a reward instead?
Counter conditioning your dog to something he is anxious of or fearful of works more efficiently. So this means pairing something really really good with that fearful or anxiety producing stimuli. If the dog is fearful of strangers, you pair the sight of strangers with filet mignon. If you start at a large enough distance and pair the two together, you will modify the dog's behavior and change it's emotional reponse to the anxiety producing stimuli from "Oh he's scary" to "Oh seeing him means I get filet!" This is science based learning. It's humane and gentle. These are just basics in teaching your dog a more appropriate behavior and what I'm trying to get at is that using Cesar's punishment based techniques are not teaching the dog anything, it's just making the dog stop what's it's doing at that moment, and it's not addressing the underlying motivation for the innapropriate behavior in the first place.
Does this make sense Renae?
And if you ask me, when it comes to "having the right energy" when working with your dog, don't you think a positive, kind approach is a better choice than a negative one? Why break down the bond you have with your dog when you don't have to?
Science is constantly changing, people are learning new ways to communicate with their dogs every day, Cesar on the other hand isn't teaching anything new, he's sticking steadfast to his old ways. He's way behind when it comes to dog training and behavior.
Furthermore, the dogs Cesar works with in his show have not been taught and reinforced the correct way to behave in the first place. The dogs don't know what they are doing is wrong, they just keep perfecting the behavior they use to best cope with the situation they are faced with. So Cesar "corrects", "disciplines", "sets boundries", whatever you want to call it, and the dog shuts down and doesn't know what to do, so it shrinks like a violet to avoid feeling uncomfortable again. Just because a dog is obedient and lies down when the scary skateboard rolls past because he's been poked 50 times with stubby fingers, doesn't mean the dog is better.
He's laying down and probably panting, frozen, drooling, and still very scared of the skateboard. If you are patient and take the extra steps to use science based learning techniques, the dog will then eventually not be afraid of the skateboard anymore.
So I thought I would try it here. I am honestly curious to hear responses, so if you do use Millan's methods, please provide your opinions and reasonings.
Here is the quote from the Shiba-side:
I have a question for those of you who approve of aversive methods of training...
If you could receive the same result (or a BETTER result) using positive methods of training, would you choose to continue to use aversive methods?
If so, why? And if so, why not try the positive training methods instead?
Thanks in advance!
I have never found a reason to use his methods, and believe that positive training techniques fit better for my home and with my relationship with my dog. I would encourage you to take a look at more positive methods. I think you will find that you will get great results with them.
Yeah probably bad examples. LoL But its what came to mind. Yes it is up to the owner what the dog is allowed to do or not to do. To me, I don't like my dogs begging at my feet so I taught them to sit a couple of feet away from me when I'm eating but I don't mind them jumping on me. Its all preference to the owner. But Cesar isn't there train the dogs but to help change the unwanted behavior to a favorable behavior.
2) In regards to your comments about experts being wrong... That one I find kinda ironic within the context of this discussion. CM is said to be an expert too, no?
Yes, Cesar is considered an expert and he could be wrong about things too, but some of the methods I've used from him, have worked. I also read other methods. Trying to be well rounded. Being a student Vet Tech also helps too. Getting plenty of experience with other dogs and how they behave and many articles about dog behavior. But like I said before its all trial and error. If I'm wrong then I will change to something that works better. I'm open to new things and I'll try it out. If it works, it works and I will use it more. If it doesn't, it doesn't and got to find something else.
These other experts mentioned above, their knowledge also comes from experience - and I'd argue that their combined experience is more than any of us on this forum. I just find it surprising when people are willing to overlook that level of experience and education in favor of a concept that's directly condoned by it.
I haven't read all of them yet. Had surgery today and was busy trying to get ready for it. ^-^; Anyways, I try to read all that is out there, not just Cesar, and my instructors go over it at school as well from there experiences and from the many studies. I just read, watch videos, listen to others experiences and from my own experience, i use what seems right to me and what's right for the dog i'm working with.
>> Really? I have not seen any politicians getting involved with this debate... You've got me interested, tell me more, please.
This website that was posted is a liberal website: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sophia-yin/experts-say-dominance-bas_b_204482.html?ref=fb&src=sp
I read the article and the people who were using Cesar methods, used it horribly. I would never do that to my dogs. That was totally extreme and people that need more education on handling there dogs, which it seems they got. I'm still shock about the shar-pei and the dog walker.
dlroberts-CM may be trying to convince you of that, but he is absolutely wrong. Dominance has nothing to do with leadership. Dominance actually means "priority access to a limited resource."Quite simply, dominance means that one dog who values a particular object or space highly gets to choose to posses that object or space even if another dog already posses it.
He's not convincing me anything, but yes I was wrong to just put to lead. Sorry, I'll try to be more careful how I word things. And your right that about a dog that is much higher energy taking what they want from another. I see it all the time with my dogs and other dogs.
dlroberts-So, when people like me start saying that dominance and submission are bad words, it's because people like you are using them incorrectly. Dominance---and I mean real dominance, not the bastardized and incorrect CM definition of dominance---is not a bad thing. Physical or mental intimidation, which are what CM preaches are the tools to achieve dominance over a dog, are actually bad things. Would you ever choke, punch, or kick your child into submission? If not, how can you compare CM's methods to raising a child?
Ok sorry but you are taking it to the extreme there. I would never choke, punch, or kick my dog or child. Think before you speak please. Its quite rude. Maybe how I worded dominance wasn't whole but I'm not using it incorrectly. I am not using physical and mental intimidation on my dogs, I expect them to obey me when I give them a command. The video above was a bit to rough and I don't believe doing that to my dog, but it has happen with me with Reese. He never tried to bite me but he was pulling so hard that he was doing it to himself. That another reason why I stopped working with Reese because it wasn't changing because my parents behavior.
ShibaMistress-One thing I've continually been puzzled by in terms of the CM methods are the emphasis on "energy" which is pretty vague and almost "new agey" for someone like CM. It seems to me that you could blame a lot of training problems on not having the right "energy" whatever that is.
Well Cesar isn't the only one that use that term. I hear it from a lot of people in the animal field. My teachers talk about having the right energy around animals. The energy they tell us to use positive thinking and being confident in what we are doing.
kwlyd-By using a positive punishment technique like that, you most likely will get the dog to stop what it's doing at that very moment. You are not unfortunatly teaching your dog a more acceptable behavior to replace it with.
I'm sorry but that doesn't work. You can have a positive punishment. You only encourage the bad behavior.
kwlyd-Your dog most likely doesn't pull on leash walks because he is afraid and anticipating a leash pop. Wouldn't it be kinder to teach your dog to walk next to you because he is anticipating a reward instead?
Ok I'm sorry, but you don't know how my dogs are when they are afraid. So you can't say that. I know when my dogs are afraid and I would wait till they relax before moving forward with something that gets them curious like a toy or a treat, but they still have over come there fear. She walks fine with happiness and confidence. I know the difference. And her reward after the walk is affection from me, water and much needed relaxing nap next to me.
kwlyd-Science is constantly changing, people are learning new ways to communicate with their dogs every day, Cesar on the other hand isn't teaching anything new, he's sticking steadfast to his old ways. He's way behind when it comes to dog training and behavior.
I disagree about Cesar being stuck in the old ways. He also uses the new ways as well. He always uses positive association and training with some of his cases. It just depends on the dogs needs.
kwlyd-Just because a dog is obedient and lies down when the scary skateboard rolls past because he's been poked 50 times with stubby fingers, doesn't mean the dog is better. He's laying down and probably panting, frozen, drooling, and still very scared of the skateboard. If you are patient and take the extra steps to use science based learning techniques, the dog will then eventually not be afraid of the skateboard anymore.
From my experience your method only encourages the bad behavior, being fearful. Nothing is instant and the panting and drooling is all the fight the dog put up to do its normal behavior and that's not healthy to be in that state of mind. I can tell you people do what Cesar does to get over fear, but dogs don't understand what's going on only knowing to fear the skateboard (continuing your example). So they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler that its not there to hurt them and they can be relax around it.
tjbart17-I have to give you a lot of credit for speaking up for what you believe in. I think there are more people on this forum who do use these methods but might not say it because of the wider culture adopted by many vocal owners on here. I would encourage you to take a look at more positive methods. I think yo will find that you will get great results with them.
Thanks. Yeah it took a lot of guts on my part to say something but some one had to shake things up even though its tough and responding to all these comments is really exhausting....... x_x LoL But like I've stated above, I don't just use Cesar's method, I do use positive reinforcement and others that feels right to me and my dogs. I want to do the best for them, that's all I want.
Anymore questions or response to my beliefs? Dang.... you guys have a lot to say about it. Wasn't expecting this but oh well. LOL It's quite interesting.
"I'm sorry but that doesn't work. You can[t] have a positive punishment. You only encourage the bad behavior. "
This means to me there is a breakdown between your knowledge of Learning Theory and what we are discussing here. I am not trying to badmouth you but it would help to learn the proper terms before beginning an argument. Learning Theory has a basis in behaviorism and these terms relate to operant conditioning. First, there is "reinforcement" and "punishment" which are easy to understand. Reinforcement serves to increase the desired behavior while punishment decreases the behavior. Then there is "positive" and "negative" which are often confused - positive here means "adding something" while negative means "subtracting". So when you put the two halves of the expressions together you get a certain method, so to speak. Positive reinforcement seeks to get a behavior to happen more often by adding something: for example, a lure/treat is given when a dog performs a command like sit. Negative punishment would be taking away something in order to decrease the behavior, like when you ignore a dog for doing something you don't like or put them in time out. Positive punishment is introducing a stimulus in order to decrease the behavior, so for example a leash jerk. Negative reinforcement is the most tricky to understand; it involves removing an adversive stimulus in order to get the desired behavior. I can't think of an example for this one, but maybe someone else can provide one.
The methods @kwyld described are considered the most scientifically advanced and most accepted methods of training in the scientific community. If they have not worked for you it is because they were not taught to you properly. They do work. Period. And they have the data and evidence to prove it. Dear friend of mine is a behaviorist for the ASPCA, she and I have talked about positive reinforcement training naysayers before. And the example she has given me (I believe Ian Dunbar makes this example in one of his TED talks too) is wild animal trainers; particularly bear and lions. Those trainers figured out a long time ago that punishment training not only didn't work it got them mauled if not killed (angry bears or lions are much scarier then a PO'd JRT or shiba). When I was in the shelter full time, I learned from first hand experience forcing a 100lb scared dog does not work (and I am the most confident woman you may ever meet). But teaching a dog that good things happened when they were near me eventually got them to trust me. Furthermore, punishment based methods are banned on film sets that want to have the "none of the animals here were harmed in anyway" disclaimer after their film.
Real quick story. There was a dog at my shelter. She was an abuse case. She was TERRIFIED of people. For one week, I sat next to her pen quietly and gently tossed treats to her. By day three she would creep up to take them from me. By day seven she would let me pet her. Then the shelter brought in a man who's tag line is "RI's Very Own Dog Whisperer". Uses CM techniques and was trained by him. He said this dog just needed to be forced from her shell. He put on gloves and charged into the kennel and dragged this dog out. She stood their trembling next to him. She urinated on herself. He said "see, problem solved" (this is technically called "flooding," one of his preferred methods). He walked her back and forth barking commands and hisses at her. The next day the dog was back in her corner. She would still come up to me, but now snarled and bore her teeth at any man who approached her kennel. She was euthanized. And the director of animal control at the time admitted to me, that he was certain that that trainer signed this poor dogs death sentence. He ruined her. That trainer is no longer welcome in ANY of RI's shelters.
Check that link out real quick Renae, even better if you have a chance to actually read the book the little excerpt is from in that link.
(The exact opposite of Negative Reinforcement - like CAT - is Positive Punishment, where you add something to punish the dog, like using a shock collar to shock the dog when the dog displays a behavior you do not like - like barking/lunging at another dog. This is the method CM uses most frequently in his show - tho usually he is using a touch, kick, or leash correction and not a shock collar.)
BAT is the "positive" version of CAT, in BAT, which uses Positive Reinforcement, you add reinforcement (like a treat) for behaviors you want to see.
What makes BAT kinda special is that it bridges Operant Conditioning with Classical Conditioning as you are doing both during the exercise: treating the dog for a behavior you like (not reacting to the other dog) while also feeding the dog when the stress-trigger (the other dog) is present (which is associating the stress-trigger with food - via classical conditioning).
@Calia - I think the post you were thinking of might have been this one: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/111164/#Comment_111164
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Here is another thread where we suggest less-aversive methods for training behaviors that are typically done with aversive methods (like CM uses): http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5858/per-ramps-request-reward-based-training-alternatives-to-punishment-based-training-scenarios/
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Sorry about that, but its a little frustrating for me that I have to repeat myself.
nekopan-This means to me there is a breakdown between your knowledge of Learning Theory and what we are discussing here. I am not trying to badmouth you but it would help to learn the proper terms before beginning an argument.
No, no, your fine. Thanks for defining them. I can see that how you explain that. I probably read it wrong or I jumbled it up in my head some how. Sorry, my bad.
kwlyd- thanks for the link. I'm trying to still read from the ones above but I'll read it.