"Going back to @CarabooA's question, another issue I have with CM is his use and marketing of this "rehabilitation" concept. As if a dog who has suffered some type of trauma that has lead them to physiologically react aggressive or fearful to a specific stimuli can be "fixed". As if CM, or anyone, can take a dog who has suffered in the past and "fix" him or undo the past trauma making him "balanced" again. It's just nonsense. "
I guess I look at this aspect from my days when I was training horses more. I've personally gained probably a couple dozen of horses trust (maybe more) who had been abused and taught them a new way to live life while interacting with people. Horses are extremely reactive (especially when been abused) but will most often choose flight over fight. Horses also are incapable of "faking it". You either succeed with them or you don't. Now, these horses will most likely never be able to reach their full potential due to the abuse they received. There is always scar tissue that will hinder them from that. But, they are capable of living a very balanced, content and happy life *** as long as they stay in the right hands ***. Even though I've never owned an abused dog, I would really like to think that in the correct hands that a dog that had been abused would be able to live a happy, balanced life with someone who understood the scar tissue there and knew how to properly set them up for success like what you talked about above!
@shibamistress I too think that people can be healed. I have a friend who went through some pretty intense REM therapy which has healed her past trauma's which were very severe. Healing I don't think means "like new" or that no trauma occurred in the first place. And she said accepting that was key to her success. I think it means simply healing from a wound whether it be physical or mental - there will always be scar tissue. Too bad there isn't someone out there who could do REM rehab on dogs!!!! - Dr. Spot says, " now Fido go back to the moment when Rufus stole your tennis ball...." Now that could be a show - hehe
I never choose punishment over reward. 95% reward - rarely, negative which would not hurt. Kicking in the nuts would not be on my list. It would be a jerk on the leash or a poke, it would be something to redirect; the rattle cans, good idea. I still think we are talking about two different things. I'm not encouraging cruelty, for god sake, in ordinary dog training, but I am contraditing the group when it comes to a dangerous situation. If you can keep a dangerous dog separated, by all means, but it's ticking timebomb and I'm not hearing anything that really helps. I don't have that problem and never have but I see it all around and if I had a clue as to how to help turn a bad situation around maybe some dog wouldn't get euthanized. This group is avid dog lovers and we take the time, we spend the money to train but the millions of people out there with dogs that just tie them in the yard. They are poor, they are busy, their lives are complicated and end up with trouble dogs and are not getting any help. TV could be a big help. I'm not hearing much constructive info. You don't like CM...what 'd got for the masses? In a million years I never thought I'd hit such a hot button topic right off the bat. yikes!
@CaliKai....actually, we've listed a number of things that would be better. Separation is NOT a ticking time bomb--it works. Also we mentioned behavioral modification technique (BAT) and other methods. We listed a number of trainers who do not use outdated, dangerous, and abusive methods.
We are also people who may have more or less money, and have busy complicated lives and also have ended up with troubled dogs or dogs with serious behavioral or health issues or both. And yet we manage--as many people to do--to find ways to work with our dogs that are not abusive.
However, I don't see the point of arguing with you over this anymore as we keep offering evidence that are other ways and you keep ignoring them and saying they won't work, even though there are people who here who are proof that you can treat even "problem" dogs other ways. And I don't see you acknowledging what a number of us have pointed out--that we believe that you should not harm dogs in training. But since you don't seem to think that kicking a dog is abusive (as long as its not in the nuts, presumably it is ok with you?) I doubt very much we'll come to any sense of agreement.
There is, also, plenty of evidence that extreme aversive methods--shock collars, even electric fences--reinforce or cause aggression dogs. I don't feel the need to link those studies yet again--they're around the forum here somewhere--but there is plenty of evidence from very good sources that those kind of methods only worsen aggression. Plus, I really don't understand dismissing the views of a host of other trainers, vets and vet associations, etc, who discuss the bad science and bad assumptions CM's methods are based on. I would also say I have serious problems suggesting that CM's methods are "good enough" for the "average" dog owner, though you might not use them yourself.
@carlikai - I don't mean to skirt your question, but I'm wondering... What is it you think CM does to "stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person?"
I mean, you do realize he has a TV show, right? It's edited like any other TV show. Certainly they aren't going to air any of his failures, and obviously anyone who is ever on the show is threatened by legal action if they discuss any part of the show with the media or other professional.
I don't mean to come off like an ass, but here is the deal... When I watch David Blaine do magic on TV I know it's an illusion. I don't actually think David Blaine can do magic. Same applies to CM, it's an illusion. I don't actually think he can walk into a room and "fix" an aggressive dog in 30 minutes... Do you???
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As for your question, instead of me rambling on and on some more. How about this...
A video of a real dog behaviorist and training professional working with a reactive dog. That's Dr. Yin, and she actually went to school for this stuff.
When I've been hiking and been charged by an aggressive off-lead dog in the past, I use my presence to scare the dog off. I point at the dog, give him a hard look, and charge directly at them yelling "BACK". 99.9% of dogs will turn and run from that. But, you have to know how to direct your "presence" correctly. Some people have it, others don't... CM does have it, that's one thing he has going for him, he knows how to pressure a dog effectively.
Same applies when 2 dogs get into it, I use my presence to stop one of them, then remove the other.
Got the 0.1% of dogs that do not run, and want confrontation, I guess I'd have to take that one for the team... so my family doesn't have to.
I just am not communicating my meaning to you, Shibamistress. I have not said you should harm a dog dogs in training. No. You have said you think CM is harming. And I never said I had ANY experience with collars; I'm not recommending them. You are pretty hot to insist that I believe in harming because I brought up CM. Are their trainers on tv you endorse? I'm not dismissing them...who are they? I only know of Me or the Dog.
I have a very good friend with a big silly standard poodle. They don't have any idea how to train tho they have owned several dogs. Suddenly he got big and he's dangerous around his food. ( I brought this up before) So far she has to feed him holding the food bowl because as soon as she sets it down he goes bezerk and they are afraid he's gonna bite; he's really vicious aroung feeding time, not training cookies tho. I have tried to help...I suggested she hold the bowl. She'd like him to eat like other dogs do but she's afraid of him. She's very wimpy anyway. The husband is the opposite. He takes him for a walk and if the dog doesn't walk without pulling he wants to beat the dog! Neither of them should have a dog but they do because they had a big poodle before and he was very mild mannered. They can't afford a behaviorist. They can't afford to even go to school. I'm just saying tv is a good way to reach these kinds of people. (they don't watch CM anyway) I don't have a problem with my dogs but a ton of people out there do and therefore they often become our problem...everyone thinks they know how to raise a dog. They don't come with computer chips in their heads. A mutual language has to be created that you both come to understand and it takes time. I'm not talking about us in here. I'm differentiating between us, who have a pretty resonable idea how to train a dog, and them, the great masses that just drag them around and staple them to the dog house in the back yard. I'm going up north MI next week and I hate what I see up there among the "unenlightened". It's how I originally got my first Kai. I rescued him from a life of neglect, abuse, starvation and he became the prince of my household. Maybe I have just been seen a lot more bad situations. I'm afraid to even bring this up...I don't know the membership here.... I don't even like the situation from whence I got my own puppy. I think it was pretty dreadful. My dog is already having a wonderful life.
Thanks for sharing that video! That was really great. I'm very visual so seeing it makes all the difference. What is really cool I thought (what I learned from it) was the zig zagging with the heel'ish facing up and sit. I "kinda" did that sort of thing with Mirra but expected her to be at my side because she knew heel and I figured if I zig zagged she had to pay more attention to where I was and what I was doing, not the other dogs/people. Also, Mirra has never been extremely food oriented so that was very difficult. She needed more praise and approval from me more so than treats. I see now how I could have accomplished things better with the quickness of reward she used and the quickness in her own movements. Very cool to see her in action!
That video is excellent, I agree. It's the exact problem that I get with Molly on a walk. I haven't had an opportunity very often to possess her attention when a strange dog is crossing our path but it's what I try to do and have had some success but not enough. At first when I attended dog school with her just entering the classroom was highly charged barking. I began to see that the reward was going inside to be in the class. So when she'd bark and pull we'd go right out again. A minute later go in again. If I had to do that a couple times and then get her in a ring doing exactly what Dr Yin was doing then she was fine. She's already fine off leash with others. She wants to be with them but was scared too.
Your explanation about what to do if you come across a strange dog unattended is VERY helpful; it's what I was trying to get out of the group to begin with. If I or my dog is suddenly accosted by a pit bull what do I do? I don't know. I did try something like that at the park but I wasn't sure what to do and fortunately I was able to get the hell out of there before something bad happened. And I don't want to take one for the team!
As to your earlier question about what I think I see from CM ( I hate to even write the intials anymore) it's kind of the same thing as what dr Yin is doing only she's doing it better. It setting up a stiuation that you already know presses the dogs buttons and then having a planned action as to how to get the dogs focus off the other dog and on you. Originally I had said I don't have his channel but from what I had seen to date they all looked helpful to me and I had never seen anything I considered cruel. But I can see what is upsetting with some of the videos you put up I'd never seen before. If I wouldn't like part of what he does it wouldn't stop me from trying something else of his I do think would be good in another situation. But in any event I wouldn't hurt a dog unless it was trying to kill me or my dog in an un supervised arena. I tried any number of his other techniques including the cross back kick and i reiterate, I don't hurt the dog it's simple poke as a way to redirect the s attention from what's in front so he looks backward and then I can draw him to me and my eye contact. It looks like he got way too heavy footed with the dogs or his aim was lousy. I have also been going to dog school for years. I used to have a husky and in dog classes we often used foot nudges and bumps and redirects. Really, I had no idea what I was opening myself up for and since i'm not one to run from a debate I've hung in there. I don't know anything about CM lawsuits. I looked on google to see what others were saying and I see a hefty debate there too. So here's where I'm at today...as I always have, I learn things from a variety of people and situations and I take from them what I think makes good common sense and I leave behind what doesn't. I ask, I listen and I use my best judgement as to what I will try. That's why I'm here asking.
@CarliKai....I do understand your meaning. I just don't agree with you. My example with the e-collars (including collars for electric "invisible" fences) was only that pain tends to make dogs more aggressive, not less. I was not saying you used them; I was using them as an example of why pain based training is not only abusive, but doesn't work well with many dogs. Also, you said earlier, that you don't feel kicking a dog is a problem and that it doesn't hurt them, and you reiterated in this last post. I disagree. (As I disagree about the Rodney King example you used as well. ) That's why there's probably little reason for me to continue this conversation after this--we have profound disagreements on dog training in general and CM in particular that I don't believe will be resolved.
It's not that there are not plenty of alternatives to Milan. There are. It's just they are not all in this thread. Dr. Sophia Yin is one example. We listed a number of other trainers (Pat Miller, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, etc) in this thread and elsewhere. There are a lot of alternatives to these methods, and in fact, the alternatives have been around longer and have plenty of success. We even have a thread that is a list of recommended training books, so there is plenty of this information available, if that's what you're looking for. And the other thing I was reiterating is what is also clear from this thread--it's not just a few of us saying CM is problematic--it's a great swathe of very experienced dog trainers (Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, etc) and vet associations etc.
The underlying disagreement is what Brad spoke of up thread: many of us here believe that training, esp. for the inexperienced, but really for anyone, should first do no harm. I believe that CM's methods do harm, and are dangerous. The idea that CM's methods might be ok for people that don't know dogs well is to me more frightening than anything else--though I see it happening due to the popularity of his show.
I don't think a TV show is a good way of getting real information on dog training, but I realize some people do watch it. I wish, instead, there was a better trainer who was on TV, but the fact is, real dog training is often not that watchable. No one wants to watch on TV the tiny slow steps of various types of BAT, for example, and how slow it progresses. Or how many different things you might have to try--and how long it will take--to rehabilitate a fearful aggressive dog. The real work of dog training, esp. with difficult dogs, is simply not conducive to TV. Still, I think many dogs would probably have better lives if CM wasn't on TV giving people the absolute wrong ideas about dogs and dog training.
A tv show is not the best way to train dogs but for the vast majority of dog owners it might be the only training they will ever get. So it would be really nice and good for a lot of dogs and their owners if there was someone out there doing a good job. Even if the training isn't perfect the attitudes about how people should train positively could have a huge impact on their willingness to try. When I was little we had a German Shepard that my dad took to dog school. It was totally negative. A lot has changed over the years and I think it is due to mass communications. Seeing something work even if you don't get all the steps at least creates a willingness to try to do it a better way.
I will say one good thing about this is a lot of people do know to take their dog to at least one puppy class--often at the big box stores, like Petsmart. Even my mom took her puppy to one, and I'd had no luck explaining about positive reinforcement methods, but the Petsmart does it, and so she tried that. I think Petsmart classes are wildly variable, so they are not my preference, but if more stores are doing positive training, that is, at least, something.
I don't agree with the logic that average people or people who are low on funds have to use TV. I mean, they're literate, aren't they? This is an age of free information. Anyone can know anything they want if they can be bothered. You don't have to spend hours poring over technical literature about animal behaviour, either. I mean, you could read that free online puppy primer by Ian Dunbar in as much time as it takes to watch an episode or two of the Dog Whisperer.
Here's another observation: almost all dog trainers view themselves as being "positive" trainers, even if they aren't. I'm sure if you asked CM or his fans, they'd say that he's extremely upbeat and positive with those dogs. My MIL, who likes CM, says that she likes his methods because they're kinder and gentler than other dog trainers. When I pointed out that they weren't actually considered positive training methods, she just said, "Well, at least he's not beating them." That's a pretty low bar if you ask me.
The instructor we're taking agility lessons from also told me beforehand that her training methods were "completely positive" and that the dogs were "never punished." And yet I went to class and noticed that she will yank a dog's leash or use her hand to jab it in the neck just like CM. I think in her case, she probably was more positive than most trainers when she started out. She says she's been doing agility for 20 years and as been working cattle dogs all her life. Compared to other trainers of that era, she is more positive, I'm sure, but she's still a little old school for the more modern trainers. She's a little old school for me, too, but she doesn't force me to do anything to Sosuke that I don't want to, so I take what I like and leave the rest.
I was also watching a bird dog demonstration with some labs retrieving bumpers and the guy running it went on and on about how you have to be totally positive, not harsh, no punishment, everything has to be fun... and yet the dog was wearing a shock collar. I'm not going to debate the use of shock collars, but you can't use one and say that your training is "no punishment."
I don't think any of these people think they're being mean to their dogs, and that's why they think they're being "all positive." CM doesn't think he's being mean to dogs. Even most people who are really harsh and authoritarian do it under the reasoning that dogs like being treated that way because they crave strict, unwavering dominance from their "pack leader."
On another note, there's another dog training reality TV show is starting up soon. Maybe it will be good. Link.
@hondru - I saw a pilot of that show, and he didn't look very good. He was training the dogs to not bark at the door with the use of leash pops and rewards, but his timing was pretty bad and he seemed to be confusing the dog. Going to have to find it now to share it. At least on the plus side, he raises money for rescues via stand up comedy
I guess if I want anyone to get their training advise from a TV show I would at least recommend "it me or the Dog" as opposed to Cesar Milan. At least the other show focuses on positive training methods. I have stayed out of this conversation as I see nothing good from Cesar Milan and I get tired of arguing the points all the time. I have trained many dog aggressive dogs and not once have I ever used an abusive method. All of my training is positive and fun for my dogs. I had a mixed breed dog several years ago. I got her as a 9 week old puppy from the humane society. Whoever turned the litter of pups in had used Cesars methods on these young pups. Ebony was the most mentally damaged of the puppies, and I took her since I knew I was her only hope for a somewhat normal life. It is heartbreaking to have to take a 9 week old puppy and try to undo the damage done. She was terrified to be a puppy. After using nothing but positive training methods, I ended up with the best dog you could ever ask for. I could never get her over her fear of leashes though. As soon as you put a leash on her, she froze. Even in a harness, if you attached a leash she froze.
I can't remember precisely which year, but on or around 2003, 2004 - I started watching the "Dog Whisperer" show on Nat Geo. I'm not a professional dog trainer, yet it's always been something I was interested in. I earned a living in the film, TV and entertainment industry as a costume designer and lived in Los Angeles, California, at the time.
What got me interested in the show:
1- It's name - which was taken from "horse whisperer" Buck Brannaman - whom I had known and read about..
2- the title "dog psychologist" - who could ever imagine that the Nat Geo channel would put a show on the air with a "psychologist" that isn't?
3- The 5min. "quick fixes" and results shown.
4- The Nat Geo brand association.
5- His "saving" pit bulls from death row.
I'm going to back track a little, just to throw some perspective of where I was coming from. I had moved to LA from NYC, there I had 2 Daschunds that I brought with me to LA. In NY, I had trouble potty training my older female - so, I got my first dog training book "Dog Friendly Dog Training" by Andrea Arden. In order to understand how to apply what was written in the book, I hired a trainer from the humane society, recommend in the book. So that was my approach to dog/animal training. I'd see or read something interesting and if I had the opportunity or the money, I'd hire them. Besides, back then there weren't so many youtube vids for us to see trainers applying their techniques.
I moved from a kitchenette type apartment in NYC's East Village to a nice house in LA with a nice back yard and behind the back yard a huge park-like lot called the "The Red Line Trestle Footings". The perfect place to have the dog breed of my dreams: Fila Brasileiro - I did a lot of researching online for a good breeder [that is an whole subject of its own], got a lemon from a highly recommended breeder. That first Fila died at about 1 y/o from an "immune mediated disorder"; it brought me to tears. Although, later, I realized how fortunate I was, because the dog was highly reactive and would bite me if I approached when he was barking at the gate. That is not part of the traits of the Fila. However, I had hired a dog trainer to guide me on how to deal with that dog and used some reward training, but also recommended a prong collar. She had been to several Ian Dunbar seminars.
After "Biggie's" death, I was very sad.. My husband bought me another Fila as a gift. This time we got a "show" quality Fila Brasileiro. A note of caution: "pet quality" for some breeders, is code for "vet quality". At this point, the "dog whisperer" show had debuted on Nat Geo and I saw an opportunity to call his "psychology center" for a consultation.
My gorgeous dog Cherokee was around 5 to 6 months when he met Cesar. My Daschunds were probably 3 and 2, respectively. They got along pretty well. He walked in with me and one could definitely sense he had an effect on the dogs. I concede he does have "something" about him that effects the dogs. However, he immediately pointed out to me that I should be dominant over them, that my dog Cherokee was competing with my other little Daschunds for supremacy. Plus, he showed me how to walk my Fila pup - all this with a lot of tsssts - leash jerking, claw hands on neck and body. I look back at it now and think of how intimidated my little dogs were of all that and how my 6 month old Fila shut down. CM, told me that my FB dog could not wrinkle his nose to the little dog, which he said I wasn't aware of because I didn't understand dog body language. I tried to tell him how things were friendly and easy going at the house and that all I wanted were some pointers if there were something to happen out of the ordinary. He was not hearing any of it and basically said the FB was not a breed for me, I would only be able to handle him if I had an Alpha personality, which I didn't, in his opinion..
After that visit, I started convincing myself that everything I had done till then was totally wrong and I was a major wuss. The stuff he showed me looked like it had immediate result, that day at my house. But, I didn't know I'd be gifted with the long term side effects that would present themselves later [the gift that keeps on giving]. Cherokee and Tex (Daschund) were friendly with other dogs before that day. But, after my consultation and my newly developed leash skills - a radical departure from what I had learned from more positive trainers till then, they became increasingly unfriendlier and reactive to other dogs. To the point where I could no longer take them to the park and I had to walk them only late at night, or very early in the morning. Every meal from then on, was tense, because they all had to eat together and I had to stand over them.. I'd become an uber control-freak about discipline. I became a defender of CM and I recommended him to friends! Even fellow Fila Brasileiro enthusiasts did not approve of his methods. Curiously and specially the folks that dealt with Filas in rescue and ACO friends.
The positive part is that I did take my dogs out for walks every day and they got exercise. Can't say the same about canine social skills.
On one of my trips overseas, I called the "psychology center" to board my dog there for 15 days. Because of his breed, it was nearly impossible to board him anywhere else. He was accepted there. It was more like a boot camp. Several pit bulls and pit mixes, and human monitors ready to tssst at any movement that remotely resembled interaction between dogs. Little dogs were kept together and they all slept in the same cushion in a room. Big dogs were made to stay together, as well as eat together. and many had shock collars on, at the time I really didn't know what they were.. . Cesar explained how things were done there, I took photos of my dog as a souvenir of my celeb experience, said goodbye and was off to my trip - entirely relaxed and sure things would work out fine.
When I picked up my dog from the psychology center, I noticed he was injured on the eye lid, and I questioned the monitor what that was about. I didn't get a straight answer because the person had not been there earlier and didn't see anything. Also, my dog had an electric collar on. I got home and waited to talk to the person that was his manager at the time. I was told is that my dog was a fighter - that is part of the breed characteristics [total nonsense] and I signed a waiver, there was nothing to be done..
Well, that episode opened my eyes quite a bit. After that stay, Cherokee's behavior became very bizarre when I left the house. He would follow me. Nothing could contain him. He would act very distraught if I left him. On the other hand, I started getting involved in volunteer training for Search and Rescue with him. I had become much interested in the work dog world, including taking my Daschunds for earth-dog trials. I learned so very much of reward training with the officers from the Sherrif's office and the earth-dog people. That's when I began to realize the effect os aversion and coercion in training. My fila had been damaged by those methods and developed an anxiety disorder. He had developed noise/storm phobia associated to separation anxiety, which he had never presented before those 10 days he was "whispered to"..
He became too big of a dog to follow through with the S&R, so then I took some herding instruction with him. He did well in that also. I learned he wasn't a full blooded Fila, that he had some mastiff in him - that's a whole other issue, though.. However, he learned to be a very well socialized dog, thanks to the herding and S&R, he does get along with other dogs pretty well too, well part of that might be from the shock collar training I suspect; but he paid a high price. I've been able to manage his anxiety disorders, only through positive techniques, relaxation protocols, bands and DAP. But, it's not going away as can be seen in th video. The long term effects of CM's influence [including his use of an electric collar] on my dog have been devastating to him.
Cesar Milan has a television show. I am a professional that is involved in the entertainment Industry - The show's producers have a script to follow, and they must keep those sponsors. They heavily edit the footage to make long processes and mistakes look instant and to cover up some of the even harsher techniques he uses.
Also, other things one can't even imagine, which I know that happened at a herding instructors facility, but are protected by confidentiality agreements and other waivers. Cesar is self-taught and he doesn’t even appear to understand why what he does works [or their long their term effects, for that matter]. There are professionals out there who really do understand the whys and hows of dog behavior and their consensus is that Cesar’s explanations are mostly nonsense. Bottom line is: Cesar is training for television entertainments, he uses difficult techniques with hocus-pocus explanations and that, in spite of his macho prowess, he frequently gets hurt!.
The reward that has come from my experience with CM is that I have learned to be an ok trainer myself, and have learned about Quandrants, operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, scent articles, stock-dog and livestock handling, evolution of dogs, wolf behavior, etc.. I have met many different trainers and learned incredibly efficient methods that require everything but force and are a lot of fun and partnership for me and the dogs!. Today, my dogs live with me in Brazil, on a farm. I have 3 more pure-bred Filas which I am attempting to teach snake detection, but all of them work with stock, in fact one of them got a 3rd place in a USBCHA event against 10 border collies, 2 rotties and 2 GSD's. I consider myself a cross-over hobby trainer, I use clicker, herding techniques, search and rescue techniques, SATS. I read a lot, and research as much as I can. I hope that from my recount, I can steer people toward a different direction, specially one that might spare their dogs.
I keep hearing ads for the new season on the radio this week. Apparently he "suffers the worst bite of his career." I wish he'd suffer the worst ratings of his career and get taken off the air.
@poeticdragon...apparently he is off the air! Or will be....I read somewhere that National Geo canceled his show!
I liked the link above even with the errors. But you know, now that I think of that, isn't that true that dogs and wolves came from a common ancestor but dogs did not directly come from wolves? I have this vague memory of reading that, maybe in the Coppinger book? I'm asking because that's a really good thing to remind people of when they come up with the CM bs.
Anyway, here's a CM related story. I'm at my puppy class yesterday. It's at the Humane society and is all positive reinforcement. Anyway, there's an older pup there, near 6 months, who is a resource guarder and a bit scrappy with other dogs, but is sweet with people. The teacher is really good at not intervening unless teeth are involved in the scraps, which I like (she's a GREAT trainer!) Anyway, I petted this pup a couple of times, and everytime I touch her, I noticed she made appeasing signs, like her mouth really pulled back in that kind of scared "grin" dogs get, and this: she rolls over on her back, and the second time she did it, I noticed she was dribbling just a tiny bit of pee. She didn't do this in the first couple of classes so I was mulling this over, and then I overheard this exchange after she'd snapped at another dog over a treat.
owner: shouldn't I roll her over on her back for being dominant? He already had his hand on her collar and was pulling her over. Trainer: absolutely not! She's fearful and she's guarding food. And this is a positive reinforcement class. Owner: but I heard....mumble, mumble, mumble. Trainer: that is TV not reality. Don't get your training advice from a TV show.
I thought, poor dog! That's why she is rolling over and peeing now--she's scared, and she's been alpha rolled!
As I was getting ready to leave, I was telling the trainer about how Oskar and Leo were playing now, and she noted something I said (Oskar handicapping while playing) and she complemented my dog behavior knowledge. I said on the forums I'm on, we mostly believe in positive reinforcement and we are pretty united in our dislike of CM. She looked utterly disgusted and said that she has wanted to quit training because of him, because she said that it is so hard to undo the false information and bad advice that people pick up from the show, and we talked briefly about how badly it can hurt dogs. I was glad to see the couple with the scared/resource guarding dog was listening, and as I left, she was trying to explain more about why CM was not good to follow, and was recommending better ways to train.
I'm sure it must be super frustrating for her, but I'm SO glad she's a trainer at the humane society, because so many people do their training there, often complete novices, and at least they have a good opportunity to start out with positive training.
But it is one of the reasons I hate this show--the fact is, it means real life dog trainers have to undo the damage he's done with bad advice, and real life dogs suffer.
@shibamistress I hadn't heard that. The new season hasn't even started to air yet (here). They're just advertising for it. Maybe this will be his last season? I don't know how many episodes it is.
I don't think the Coppinger model is entirely correct. Plausible, but I don't think it pertains to the domestication of every dog. But that's a completely different debate.
That was a pretty good article, and does, I think speak to Millan's popularity: there is the anti-intellectual crowd who react against anyone with academic credentials, and there is also those who find the idea of dominating anything appealing. It is sad, though, for dogs, that Dunbar is not the more popular one.
Hmm, or the story could be reframed as a NorCal vs. SoCal thing. (Kidding! Kidding!)
I do think that the "cult of personality" with Dunbar has grown since that article was written in 2006. Certainly he doesn't have Millan's television exposure, but the internet has kept apace with the developing debate. He will have the kind of staying power that Millan and other "celebrity" trainers before his time lack. Like William Koehler? Yeah, I had to recall Koehler's books from the off-site storage facility when I wanted to take a look at them... Whereas Dunbar's dissertation is still accessible right behind the main circulation desk... Okay, that's a filing technicality, but metaphorically, it speaks volumes to me about the relevance of each dog trainer's legacy. Anyway, Dunbar is still booking *serious* talks and workshops all around the world -- he's accessible in a way that celebrities don't get to be. And for those he can't reach in person, I still find him quite personable and engaging in his video demonstrations.
And I would MOST CERTAINLY recognize him if I saw him at my local off-leash dog park!
@Ayk....he did? Which video? (Not that I probably have it, but....Maybe his techniques have evolved too...)
@Saya...I don't think she'll quit. It was just spoken out of frustration. she's been training for years now, and I asked if she does classes other than the puppy class, and she said no, because she's mostly training younger people to be good, positive trainers, which is great news, esp. since she does the "trainer training" at the humane society shelter, so it really shows that the people there are not going to be taught all this dominance bs type of stuff, which is great.
Comments
"Going back to @CarabooA's question, another issue I have with CM is his use and marketing of this "rehabilitation" concept. As if a dog who has suffered some type of trauma that has lead them to physiologically react aggressive or fearful to a specific stimuli can be "fixed". As if CM, or anyone, can take a dog who has suffered in the past and "fix" him or undo the past trauma making him "balanced" again. It's just nonsense. "
I guess I look at this aspect from my days when I was training horses more. I've personally gained probably a couple dozen of horses trust (maybe more) who had been abused and taught them a new way to live life while interacting with people. Horses are extremely reactive (especially when been abused) but will most often choose flight over fight. Horses also are incapable of "faking it". You either succeed with them or you don't. Now, these horses will most likely never be able to reach their full potential due to the abuse they received. There is always scar tissue that will hinder them from that. But, they are capable of living a very balanced, content and happy life *** as long as they stay in the right hands ***. Even though I've never owned an abused dog, I would really like to think that in the correct hands that a dog that had been abused would be able to live a happy, balanced life with someone who understood the scar tissue there and knew how to properly set them up for success like what you talked about above!
@shibamistress I too think that people can be healed. I have a friend who went through some pretty intense REM therapy which has healed her past trauma's which were very severe. Healing I don't think means "like new" or that no trauma occurred in the first place. And she said accepting that was key to her success. I think it means simply healing from a wound whether it be physical or mental - there will always be scar tissue. Too bad there isn't someone out there who could do REM rehab on dogs!!!! - Dr. Spot says, " now Fido go back to the moment when Rufus stole your tennis ball...." Now that could be a show - hehe
We are also people who may have more or less money, and have busy complicated lives and also have ended up with troubled dogs or dogs with serious behavioral or health issues or both. And yet we manage--as many people to do--to find ways to work with our dogs that are not abusive.
However, I don't see the point of arguing with you over this anymore as we keep offering evidence that are other ways and you keep ignoring them and saying they won't work, even though there are people who here who are proof that you can treat even "problem" dogs other ways. And I don't see you acknowledging what a number of us have pointed out--that we believe that you should not harm dogs in training. But since you don't seem to think that kicking a dog is abusive (as long as its not in the nuts, presumably it is ok with you?) I doubt very much we'll come to any sense of agreement.
There is, also, plenty of evidence that extreme aversive methods--shock collars, even electric fences--reinforce or cause aggression dogs. I don't feel the need to link those studies yet again--they're around the forum here somewhere--but there is plenty of evidence from very good sources that those kind of methods only worsen aggression. Plus, I really don't understand dismissing the views of a host of other trainers, vets and vet associations, etc, who discuss the bad science and bad assumptions CM's methods are based on. I would also say I have serious problems suggesting that CM's methods are "good enough" for the "average" dog owner, though you might not use them yourself.
I mean, you do realize he has a TV show, right? It's edited like any other TV show. Certainly they aren't going to air any of his failures, and obviously anyone who is ever on the show is threatened by legal action if they discuss any part of the show with the media or other professional.
I don't mean to come off like an ass, but here is the deal... When I watch David Blaine do magic on TV I know it's an illusion. I don't actually think David Blaine can do magic. Same applies to CM, it's an illusion. I don't actually think he can walk into a room and "fix" an aggressive dog in 30 minutes... Do you???
----
As for your question, instead of me rambling on and on some more. How about this...
A video of a real dog behaviorist and training professional working with a reactive dog. That's Dr. Yin, and she actually went to school for this stuff.
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Same applies when 2 dogs get into it, I use my presence to stop one of them, then remove the other.
Got the 0.1% of dogs that do not run, and want confrontation, I guess I'd have to take that one for the team... so my family doesn't have to.
So, there is my answer.
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I have a very good friend with a big silly standard poodle. They don't have any idea how to train tho they have owned several dogs. Suddenly he got big and he's dangerous around his food. ( I brought this up before) So far she has to feed him holding the food bowl because as soon as she sets it down he goes bezerk and they are afraid he's gonna bite; he's really vicious aroung feeding time, not training cookies tho. I have tried to help...I suggested she hold the bowl. She'd like him to eat like other dogs do but she's afraid of him. She's very wimpy anyway. The husband is the opposite. He takes him for a walk and if the dog doesn't walk without pulling he wants to beat the dog! Neither of them should have a dog but they do because they had a big poodle before and he was very mild mannered. They can't afford a behaviorist. They can't afford to even go to school. I'm just saying tv is a good way to reach these kinds of people. (they don't watch CM anyway) I don't have a problem with my dogs but a ton of people out there do and therefore they often become our problem...everyone thinks they know how to raise a dog. They don't come with computer chips in their heads. A mutual language has to be created that you both come to understand and it takes time. I'm not talking about us in here. I'm differentiating between us, who have a pretty resonable idea how to train a dog, and them, the great masses that just drag them around and staple them to the dog house in the back yard. I'm going up north MI next week and I hate what I see up there among the "unenlightened". It's how I originally got my first Kai. I rescued him from a life of neglect, abuse, starvation and he became the prince of my household. Maybe I have just been seen a lot more bad situations. I'm afraid to even bring this up...I don't know the membership here.... I don't even like the situation from whence I got my own puppy. I think it was pretty dreadful. My dog is already having a wonderful life.
Your explanation about what to do if you come across a strange dog unattended is VERY helpful; it's what I was trying to get out of the group to begin with. If I or my dog is suddenly accosted by a pit bull what do I do? I don't know. I did try something like that at the park but I wasn't sure what to do and fortunately I was able to get the hell out of there before something bad happened. And I don't want to take one for the team!
As to your earlier question about what I think I see from CM ( I hate to even write the intials anymore) it's kind of the same thing as what dr Yin is doing only she's doing it better. It setting up a stiuation that you already know presses the dogs buttons and then having a planned action as to how to get the dogs focus off the other dog and on you. Originally I had said I don't have his channel but from what I had seen to date they all looked helpful to me and I had never seen anything I considered cruel. But I can see what is upsetting with some of the videos you put up I'd never seen before. If I wouldn't like part of what he does it wouldn't stop me from trying something else of his I do think would be good in another situation. But in any event I wouldn't hurt a dog unless it was trying to kill me or my dog in an un supervised arena. I tried any number of his other techniques including the cross back kick and i reiterate, I don't hurt the dog it's simple poke as a way to redirect the s attention from what's in front so he looks backward and then I can draw him to me and my eye contact. It looks like he got way too heavy footed with the dogs or his aim was lousy. I have also been going to dog school for years. I used to have a husky and in dog classes we often used foot nudges and bumps and redirects. Really, I had no idea what I was opening myself up for and since i'm not one to run from a debate I've hung in there. I don't know anything about CM lawsuits. I looked on google to see what others were saying and I see a hefty debate there too. So here's where I'm at today...as I always have, I learn things from a variety of people and situations and I take from them what I think makes good common sense and I leave behind what doesn't. I ask, I listen and I use my best judgement as to what I will try. That's why I'm here asking.
It's not that there are not plenty of alternatives to Milan. There are. It's just they are not all in this thread. Dr. Sophia Yin is one example. We listed a number of other trainers (Pat Miller, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, etc) in this thread and elsewhere. There are a lot of alternatives to these methods, and in fact, the alternatives have been around longer and have plenty of success. We even have a thread that is a list of recommended training books, so there is plenty of this information available, if that's what you're looking for. And the other thing I was reiterating is what is also clear from this thread--it's not just a few of us saying CM is problematic--it's a great swathe of very experienced dog trainers (Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, etc) and vet associations etc.
The underlying disagreement is what Brad spoke of up thread: many of us here believe that training, esp. for the inexperienced, but really for anyone, should first do no harm. I believe that CM's methods do harm, and are dangerous. The idea that CM's methods might be ok for people that don't know dogs well is to me more frightening than anything else--though I see it happening due to the popularity of his show.
I don't think a TV show is a good way of getting real information on dog training, but I realize some people do watch it. I wish, instead, there was a better trainer who was on TV, but the fact is, real dog training is often not that watchable. No one wants to watch on TV the tiny slow steps of various types of BAT, for example, and how slow it progresses. Or how many different things you might have to try--and how long it will take--to rehabilitate a fearful aggressive dog. The real work of dog training, esp. with difficult dogs, is simply not conducive to TV. Still, I think many dogs would probably have better lives if CM wasn't on TV giving people the absolute wrong ideas about dogs and dog training.
Here's another observation: almost all dog trainers view themselves as being "positive" trainers, even if they aren't. I'm sure if you asked CM or his fans, they'd say that he's extremely upbeat and positive with those dogs. My MIL, who likes CM, says that she likes his methods because they're kinder and gentler than other dog trainers. When I pointed out that they weren't actually considered positive training methods, she just said, "Well, at least he's not beating them." That's a pretty low bar if you ask me.
The instructor we're taking agility lessons from also told me beforehand that her training methods were "completely positive" and that the dogs were "never punished." And yet I went to class and noticed that she will yank a dog's leash or use her hand to jab it in the neck just like CM. I think in her case, she probably was more positive than most trainers when she started out. She says she's been doing agility for 20 years and as been working cattle dogs all her life. Compared to other trainers of that era, she is more positive, I'm sure, but she's still a little old school for the more modern trainers. She's a little old school for me, too, but she doesn't force me to do anything to Sosuke that I don't want to, so I take what I like and leave the rest.
I was also watching a bird dog demonstration with some labs retrieving bumpers and the guy running it went on and on about how you have to be totally positive, not harsh, no punishment, everything has to be fun... and yet the dog was wearing a shock collar. I'm not going to debate the use of shock collars, but you can't use one and say that your training is "no punishment."
I don't think any of these people think they're being mean to their dogs, and that's why they think they're being "all positive." CM doesn't think he's being mean to dogs. Even most people who are really harsh and authoritarian do it under the reasoning that dogs like being treated that way because they crave strict, unwavering dominance from their "pack leader."
On another note, there's another dog training reality TV show is starting up soon. Maybe it will be good. Link.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/20444826822?view=doc&id=10150311356541823
My Journey Beyond Whispering By Ligia Morris
I can't remember precisely which year, but on or around 2003, 2004 - I started watching the "Dog Whisperer" show on Nat Geo. I'm not a professional dog trainer, yet it's always been something I was interested in. I earned a living in the film, TV and entertainment industry as a costume designer and lived in Los Angeles, California, at the time.
What got me interested in the show:
1- It's name - which was taken from "horse whisperer" Buck Brannaman - whom I had known and read about..
2- the title "dog psychologist" - who could ever imagine that the Nat Geo channel would put a show on the air with a "psychologist" that isn't?
3- The 5min. "quick fixes" and results shown.
4- The Nat Geo brand association.
5- His "saving" pit bulls from death row.
I'm going to back track a little, just to throw some perspective of where I was coming from. I had moved to LA from NYC, there I had 2 Daschunds that I brought with me to LA. In NY, I had trouble potty training my older female - so, I got my first dog training book "Dog Friendly Dog Training" by Andrea Arden. In order to understand how to apply what was written in the book, I hired a trainer from the humane society, recommend in the book. So that was my approach to dog/animal training. I'd see or read something interesting and if I had the opportunity or the money, I'd hire them. Besides, back then there weren't so many youtube vids for us to see trainers applying their techniques.
I moved from a kitchenette type apartment in NYC's East Village to a nice house in LA with a nice back yard and behind the back yard a huge park-like lot called the "The Red Line Trestle Footings". The perfect place to have the dog breed of my dreams: Fila Brasileiro - I did a lot of researching online for a good breeder [that is an whole subject of its own], got a lemon from a highly recommended breeder. That first Fila died at about 1 y/o from an "immune mediated disorder"; it brought me to tears. Although, later, I realized how fortunate I was, because the dog was highly reactive and would bite me if I approached when he was barking at the gate. That is not part of the traits of the Fila. However, I had hired a dog trainer to guide me on how to deal with that dog and used some reward training, but also recommended a prong collar. She had been to several Ian Dunbar seminars.
After "Biggie's" death, I was very sad.. My husband bought me another Fila as a gift. This time we got a "show" quality Fila Brasileiro. A note of caution: "pet quality" for some breeders, is code for "vet quality". At this point, the "dog whisperer" show had debuted on Nat Geo and I saw an opportunity to call his "psychology center" for a consultation.
My gorgeous dog Cherokee was around 5 to 6 months when he met Cesar. My Daschunds were probably 3 and 2, respectively. They got along pretty well. He walked in with me and one could definitely sense he had an effect on the dogs. I concede he does have "something" about him that effects the dogs. However, he immediately pointed out to me that I should be dominant over them, that my dog Cherokee was competing with my other little Daschunds for supremacy. Plus, he showed me how to walk my Fila pup - all this with a lot of tsssts - leash jerking, claw hands on neck and body. I look back at it now and think of how intimidated my little dogs were of all that and how my 6 month old Fila shut down. CM, told me that my FB dog could not wrinkle his nose to the little dog, which he said I wasn't aware of because I didn't understand dog body language. I tried to tell him how things were friendly and easy going at the house and that all I wanted were some pointers if there were something to happen out of the ordinary. He was not hearing any of it and basically said the FB was not a breed for me, I would only be able to handle him if I had an Alpha personality, which I didn't, in his opinion..
After that visit, I started convincing myself that everything I had done till then was totally wrong and I was a major wuss. The stuff he showed me looked like it had immediate result, that day at my house. But, I didn't know I'd be gifted with the long term side effects that would present themselves later [the gift that keeps on giving]. Cherokee and Tex (Daschund) were friendly with other dogs before that day. But, after my consultation and my newly developed leash skills - a radical departure from what I had learned from more positive trainers till then, they became increasingly unfriendlier and reactive to other dogs. To the point where I could no longer take them to the park and I had to walk them only late at night, or very early in the morning. Every meal from then on, was tense, because they all had to eat together and I had to stand over them.. I'd become an uber control-freak about discipline. I became a defender of CM and I recommended him to friends! Even fellow Fila Brasileiro enthusiasts did not approve of his methods. Curiously and specially the folks that dealt with Filas in rescue and ACO friends.
The positive part is that I did take my dogs out for walks every day and they got exercise. Can't say the same about canine social skills.
On one of my trips overseas, I called the "psychology center" to board my dog there for 15 days. Because of his breed, it was nearly impossible to board him anywhere else. He was accepted there. It was more like a boot camp. Several pit bulls and pit mixes, and human monitors ready to tssst at any movement that remotely resembled interaction between dogs. Little dogs were kept together and they all slept in the same cushion in a room. Big dogs were made to stay together, as well as eat together. and many had shock collars on, at the time I really didn't know what they were.. . Cesar explained how things were done there, I took photos of my dog as a souvenir of my celeb experience, said goodbye and was off to my trip - entirely relaxed and sure things would work out fine.
When I picked up my dog from the psychology center, I noticed he was injured on the eye lid, and I questioned the monitor what that was about. I didn't get a straight answer because the person had not been there earlier and didn't see anything. Also, my dog had an electric collar on. I got home and waited to talk to the person that was his manager at the time. I was told is that my dog was a fighter - that is part of the breed characteristics [total nonsense] and I signed a waiver, there was nothing to be done..
Well, that episode opened my eyes quite a bit. After that stay, Cherokee's behavior became very bizarre when I left the house. He would follow me. Nothing could contain him. He would act very distraught if I left him. On the other hand, I started getting involved in volunteer training for Search and Rescue with him. I had become much interested in the work dog world, including taking my Daschunds for earth-dog trials. I learned so very much of reward training with the officers from the Sherrif's office and the earth-dog people. That's when I began to realize the effect os aversion and coercion in training. My fila had been damaged by those methods and developed an anxiety disorder. He had developed noise/storm phobia associated to separation anxiety, which he had never presented before those 10 days he was "whispered to"..
He became too big of a dog to follow through with the S&R, so then I took some herding instruction with him. He did well in that also. I learned he wasn't a full blooded Fila, that he had some mastiff in him - that's a whole other issue, though.. However, he learned to be a very well socialized dog, thanks to the herding and S&R, he does get along with other dogs pretty well too, well part of that might be from the shock collar training I suspect; but he paid a high price. I've been able to manage his anxiety disorders, only through positive techniques, relaxation protocols, bands and DAP. But, it's not going away as can be seen in th video. The long term effects of CM's influence [including his use of an electric collar] on my dog have been devastating to him.
Cesar Milan has a television show. I am a professional that is involved in the entertainment Industry - The show's producers have a script to follow, and they must keep those sponsors. They heavily edit the footage to make long processes and mistakes look instant and to cover up some of the even harsher techniques he uses.
Also, other things one can't even imagine, which I know that happened at a herding instructors facility, but are protected by confidentiality agreements and other waivers. Cesar is self-taught and he doesn’t even appear to understand why what he does works [or their long their term effects, for that matter]. There are professionals out there who really do understand the whys and hows of dog behavior and their consensus is that Cesar’s explanations are mostly nonsense. Bottom line is: Cesar is training for television entertainments, he uses difficult techniques with hocus-pocus explanations and that, in spite of his macho prowess, he frequently gets hurt!.
The reward that has come from my experience with CM is that I have learned to be an ok trainer myself, and have learned about Quandrants, operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, scent articles, stock-dog and livestock handling, evolution of dogs, wolf behavior, etc.. I have met many different trainers and learned incredibly efficient methods that require everything but force and are a lot of fun and partnership for me and the dogs!. Today, my dogs live with me in Brazil, on a farm. I have 3 more pure-bred Filas which I am attempting to teach snake detection, but all of them work with stock, in fact one of them got a 3rd place in a USBCHA event against 10 border collies, 2 rotties and 2 GSD's. I consider myself a cross-over hobby trainer, I use clicker, herding techniques, search and rescue techniques, SATS. I read a lot, and research as much as I can. I hope that from my recount, I can steer people toward a different direction, specially one that might spare their dogs.
*(copy and paste this to post on webites
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
http://hopefulveterinarian.tumblr.com/post/25902588496/queer-io-asked-i-know-its-not-really-my-place-to-ask
I liked the link above even with the errors. But you know, now that I think of that, isn't that true that dogs and wolves came from a common ancestor but dogs did not directly come from wolves? I have this vague memory of reading that, maybe in the Coppinger book? I'm asking because that's a really good thing to remind people of when they come up with the CM bs.
Anyway, here's a CM related story. I'm at my puppy class yesterday. It's at the Humane society and is all positive reinforcement. Anyway, there's an older pup there, near 6 months, who is a resource guarder and a bit scrappy with other dogs, but is sweet with people. The teacher is really good at not intervening unless teeth are involved in the scraps, which I like (she's a GREAT trainer!) Anyway, I petted this pup a couple of times, and everytime I touch her, I noticed she made appeasing signs, like her mouth really pulled back in that kind of scared "grin" dogs get, and this: she rolls over on her back, and the second time she did it, I noticed she was dribbling just a tiny bit of pee. She didn't do this in the first couple of classes so I was mulling this over, and then I overheard this exchange after she'd snapped at another dog over a treat.
owner: shouldn't I roll her over on her back for being dominant? He already had his hand on her collar and was pulling her over.
Trainer: absolutely not! She's fearful and she's guarding food. And this is a positive reinforcement class.
Owner: but I heard....mumble, mumble, mumble.
Trainer: that is TV not reality. Don't get your training advice from a TV show.
I thought, poor dog! That's why she is rolling over and peeing now--she's scared, and she's been alpha rolled!
As I was getting ready to leave, I was telling the trainer about how Oskar and Leo were playing now, and she noted something I said (Oskar handicapping while playing) and she complemented my dog behavior knowledge. I said on the forums I'm on, we mostly believe in positive reinforcement and we are pretty united in our dislike of CM. She looked utterly disgusted and said that she has wanted to quit training because of him, because she said that it is so hard to undo the false information and bad advice that people pick up from the show, and we talked briefly about how badly it can hurt dogs. I was glad to see the couple with the scared/resource guarding dog was listening, and as I left, she was trying to explain more about why CM was not good to follow, and was recommending better ways to train.
I'm sure it must be super frustrating for her, but I'm SO glad she's a trainer at the humane society, because so many people do their training there, often complete novices, and at least they have a good opportunity to start out with positive training.
But it is one of the reasons I hate this show--the fact is, it means real life dog trainers have to undo the damage he's done with bad advice, and real life dogs suffer.
http://www.care2.com/greenliving/national-geographic-cancels-the-dog-whisperer.html
Here's another article on the "canceling" of DW and what it's going to be replaced with:
http://insideoutdogtraining.com/nat-geo-wild-cancel-dog-whisperer
http://www.sfgate.com/magazine/article/The-Anti-Cesar-Millan-Ian-Dunbar-s-been-2550043.php#page-1
(Kidding! Kidding!)
I do think that the "cult of personality" with Dunbar has grown since that article was written in 2006. Certainly he doesn't have Millan's television exposure, but the internet has kept apace with the developing debate. He will have the kind of staying power that Millan and other "celebrity" trainers before his time lack. Like William Koehler? Yeah, I had to recall Koehler's books from the off-site storage facility when I wanted to take a look at them... Whereas Dunbar's dissertation is still accessible right behind the main circulation desk... Okay, that's a filing technicality, but metaphorically, it speaks volumes to me about the relevance of each dog trainer's legacy. Anyway, Dunbar is still booking *serious* talks and workshops all around the world -- he's accessible in a way that celebrities don't get to be. And for those he can't reach in person, I still find him quite personable and engaging in his video demonstrations.
And I would MOST CERTAINLY recognize him if I saw him at my local off-leash dog park!
Man I hope your trainer doesn't quit! You need to thank her and encourage her if she still feels that way.
I mean if she is a good trainer she quits it'll be bad for many dog owners. It's so hard find good trainers.
My trainer was very good positive and knew how to work with dogs and stuff.
I see a lot of bad information being passed a long like lightly smack the puppy for chewing on things with a newspaper or magazine.
I mean even lightly smacking a puppy doesn't sound right.
I gave my opinion and the person got mean with me and called me dog whisperer which I think is funny since I don't like the dog whisperer.
So sad that pup was on back peeing like that.
@Saya...I don't think she'll quit. It was just spoken out of frustration. she's been training for years now, and I asked if she does classes other than the puppy class, and she said no, because she's mostly training younger people to be good, positive trainers, which is great news, esp. since she does the "trainer training" at the humane society shelter, so it really shows that the people there are not going to be taught all this dominance bs type of stuff, which is great.