Ugh, that one with Shadow (Malamute mix) makes me so sad. I look at that dog and I just see how I could have gone wrong when London started becoming reactive/dog aggressive. I think I linked it before in this thread - or maybe in another one here.
I just watched the full first vid and I do not understand, for the life of me, why Milan made his presence so "large" with that fearful/aggressive fawn Dane. That poor dog looks terrified (lunging forward and retreating) and he's just escalating the situation, imo.
Another example that comes to mind is an episode where he's "socializing" a Maltese to the brush and he's essentially terrorizing the dog by flooding it and lifting it up by the lead when it reacts. I understand that he may do well in some areas, but I feel like you can literally go through every episode and find an example of him being way too heavy-handed.
Ok, so how do you stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person. Personally I have come close to having to deal with this and it can mean death to another dog or another person if you cannot make or divert the dog from fulfilling his intent. These people are seeking help about their aggressive dogs. They don't know what to do and most of them are very whimpy with their dogs so they've maybe let things get out of control as the dog has grown to maturity. I've been at the dog park and almost every time I've gone I wonder will I be able to intervene. If I do it's not going to be pretty for either of us. When these dogs get to Milan they have already attacked and they don't want to have to put their dog down.
Ok, so how do you stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person?
That's the main question I have for this group too - using the methods that you guys are talking about (non CM methods). I've seen it in the horse world and in the dog world alike. The animal has been raised by people who really don't know what they are doing and inadvertently teach the animal a long list of dangerous behaviors that will either hurt: the animal, the handler/owner, another animal or handler/owner or all of the above. There are some people out there who really shouldn't own animals (until they learn how to raise them) but they do, and I've seen some pretty messed up animals raised by people who are really just ignorant to what they are teaching.
I love working with horses as they are the spirit of my soul. However, over the years there has been one horse that I refused to work with because it was not fearful aggressive (that I can change using gentle methods and earning trust) but it was "I'm going to attack you and kill you aggressive". I had done nothing more than walk into it's pasture (it was pastured with 3 other horses) and attempt to gauge it's state of mind simply by watching it interact with the other horses, observing not intruding. It singled me out from the horses and I feared for my life that day, and I'm not exaggerating - rearing, charging striking with teeth bared.... I couldn't get out of that pasture quick enough. I know that this horse was not born with a desire to kill people, it somewhere along the way learned to do these things. This horse was in absolutely no way afraid of me. It knew 100% how to make me afraid of it. Now, a dog isn't a 1500# animal but they can do damage just as quick if they are attacking from that same state of mind.... SO...lol
**How would you (and I'm going to be ornery and use a CM word..haha) rehabilitate a dog that is doing ill behaviors because it has learned that it can fight and win?** Or would you deem it not fit to be part of society and have it humanely euthanized?
I'm not talking about any of the dogs who are fearful. That's a whole different ball game to me. I'm talking about a dog who flat out wants to fight to win to get what it wants. Whether it be to attack an approaching dog/person...whatever, you name it. I feel like on some of CM's extreme videos that is what he was dealing with and - No, it wouldn't be for the greenhorn to attempt as they can misread an animals signals/intent and not be quick enough with their interactions with said animal?
There are a lot of ways to deal with aggressive dogs that does not include making them more aggressive by abusing them. I have a dog that nearly killed my other dog, and she is still bent on killing him, four years later and would if she could. How do I deal with it? Well, it's not something that anyone wants to put on TV because it's not sexy or easy to package for a TV audience. It takes patience, dedication, and management. Mostly, they are separated. I also had a behavioralist come out and teach me some behavior modification techniques that we used with moderate success on the dog that was attacked. The other dog as simply too unpredicatable to even begin training with (and that was according to a very good behavioralist who I don't believe gives up easily).
So while I manage them, I also tried to get at the root of her problem, and tried a lot of different meds to see if anything would work. NOthing did. We did find out she was low thyroid--and I wonder how often CM calls in a vet consult to make sure these dogs aren't low thyroid or have other issues? A few years later we discovered she has a seizure disorder. Now that she is treated for her hypthyroidism and epilepsy, she is a much more manageable dog. She would still kill my other Shiba if she could, instantly, but she is now pretty well behaved with other dogs. It's taken four years, and yes, I did come close to giving up on her sometimes, but I did not, and I'm glad I did not. And if I had used those aversive methods on her, it would have broken her completely and would NOT have stopped her aggression.
And I REALLY resent the idea that somehow people like me who ended up with an aggressive, unpredicatable dog some how "did" something to make our dogs like this. It has nothing to do with me not being "dominant" enough or any other CM bullshit. Yeah, I live everyday with one of these dogs, and it's not particularly easy, but if anyone tried this kind of crap on my dog, they would be very, very sorry.
There are people on the Shiba side who have dealt with Shiba who are aggressive towards people. One person has been repeatedly bit by their dog. They do not give in to these kind of methods, which wouldn't help, but rather take the often painfully slow method of rehabiliting a dog through patience and postive training. It does work--and often in cases where it might not, I suspect the dog has a medical problem.
Why would anyone think it would be a good idea to take an already "aggressive" dog and use violence on it is beyond me. ESPECIALLY if the animal had a history of biting people. All the animal would learn is that, indeed, humans are violent and something to be feared, and therefore attacked.
This isn't entirely relevant, but I feel like I have to get this out: fear doesn't always look like "fear".
Sometimes, people and animals are proactive about their fears. My Malamute used to be extremely fear aggressive with other dogs after getting attacked a few times - his fear escalated to where he would lunge, preemptively, and try to attack other dogs. Most people don't see this as "fear". Most people saw my 100 pound dog lunging and spitting and snarling and figured he was a man (or dog) eater. Really, it's just that London learned that exhibiting these behaviors was a really awesome and quick way to make the scary things go away.
A lot of the CM videos that have been linked here feature fear-aggressive dogs he's much too heavy-handed with or frustrated dogs that redirect their frustration onto him when he mis/man-handles them (see: Shadow, the Malamute mix in that last video or the Bulldog he lifts by the skin - those dogs are redirecting their frustration).
@carlikai wrote: Ok, so how do you stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person?
When I'm working the yards and straight-up dog fight breaks out (which is extremely rare, but we test all the dogs that come in), do what you can to separate the dogs. Most people go to screaming and yelling, but I tend to avoid this because it only makes the situation worse. I'm almost always silent and I always manage the aggressor first (never the reactive dog, unless the reactive dog BECOMES the aggressor). Some dogs are harder to separate. Some dogs are impossible to separate by yourself.
In my experience, a dog that people refer to as a dog that "fights to win" or "fights because they like it" or "because he's a jerk" is a dog that may be suffering from some anxiety in one form or another. Again, this is just my experience and I'm by no means an expert and this may not apply to every dog, but I just don't think CM methods are adequate for dealing with aggressive dogs (fearful or otherwise). You don't treat aggression with aggression, imo. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
People like CM because he gets dramatic results in a short time for TV. The truth is that aggression is not an easy fix and it can take years or even a dog's entire life to become "rehabilitated". As the owner of two fear-aggressive dogs (from entirely different walks of life with entirely different problems), it can be frustrating and taxing and some days you see no progress and other days, you can't believe how much progress they've made. It's a slow, ongoing process that requires patience and understanding.
I do have scuffles break out from time to time and seperating them as quickly as possible resolves the fight. Of course, preventing the fights with good management, learning to spot warning signs, taking classes, etc, is the ultimate solution. The mindset Cesar creates with his clients is to "put the fire out" instead of prevent it and plan ahead. If his clients are too "wimpy" to manage their dogs on their own, how reasonable is it to expect that they will be successful in the long term with physically manhandling a dog for every infraction?
An old timey term for fear related aggression is "reactive aggression", the "I will get you before you can get me" mindset, and people often fail to see it as fear, but it is indeed fear based.
"**How would you (and I'm going to be ornery and use a CM word..haha) rehabilitate a dog that is doing ill behaviors because it has learned that it can fight and win?** Or would you deem it not fit to be part of society and have it humanely euthanized?"
Don't let them win anymore. Dogs are smart, they can learn which behaviors pay and which behaviors don't. People control every single resource for their dogs, and the dog has a choice to comply or go without. Barring medical reasons for aggression/fear, and taking into consideration that some breeds have a very strong instinct to be intolerant of strangers and strange dogs (like livestock dogs), most things can be improved or resolve with good managment, prevention, and setting the dog up for success. Sometimes dogs do need to be euthanized for behavior.
I usually try to diffuse everything verbally and distract and regroup as much as possible (and my dogs respect that and are familiar with being called away or recalling). There are usually so many routes to take to avoid the situation of a dog wanting to kill another dog, and so many signals the dogs give that they are uncomfortable, there really shouldn't ever be a need for a physical intervention except if the dumb human misses those signals and a fight breaks out (then it is just seperating the dogs and removing them as fast as possible).
People on this site are avid dog people; either breeders or own these special breeds. We are talking about miliions of people out there that have dogs. They have no special knowledge about animal behavior and they are just wanting a nice dog to live with...sadly others actually want an agressive breed to extend their own arm of agression against others. I'm not going to go to any more length to defend CM becuase I see I have a whole group that doesn't like his methods but I think a great geal of good is imparted to ordinary people as to how to keep their dogs from going "red" before it happens. Yes, he sets up the dog to do what the dog has already demonstrated he is going to do so he can try to redirect the bad behavior before it happens. And yes, it's going to take a lot of work, perhaps years or the dogs lifetime. I watched the videos and the malamute was upsetting. I don't know how aggressive that dog is against other dogs. It's a little bit like watching the "Rodney King" video. As for the "kicking", really? You cannot hurt anyone with a rear cross kick. It's not abusive. Look closer. I've done it. It helps remove the dogs attention from the dog ahead. I don't hurt any dog ever. It's at best a shoe poke. But I don't want my dog going after another dog as we cross in the street. I have a very mild mannered dog (fearful really) that is completely different walking down the street and another dog is coming toward us. It's all I can do to make her "leave" the other dog especially if the other one takes the challenge which they usually do. Fortunately I've never had to haul a dog upward on a leash off his feet. Thankfully I don't have that kind of dog. But they are definitely out there. You cannot let him go to kill if you can prevent it. What if it was in your power and and oncoming dog was going after your dog/child and there was no person there on the end of his leash. If you could bring him down you would have to do it. I LOVE dogs but I have no illusions about what they can do. I mention the dog park again...the last time I was there all the dogs were playing and having a great time. Suddenly a new dog showed up and came rushing into the pack, a pit bull wouldn't you guess. He went to attack another dog, not mine, but the owner just stood apart and didn't intervene. We all had to leash up our dogs and go home. I repremanded the owner and told him he had to be a part of the group to intervene if his dog gets out of hand...his answer was, well she is just like that. What if his dog had tried to kill my dog. If I could drag that dog up and strangle it I would do it...but I doubt that I am strong enough. We cannot take a whimpy approach to dog aggression. It's the number one reason dogs are put down. Do you want your children hurt? Something really significant has to happen otherwise it is better the dog is destroyed. I know this is not PC but I'm sensing the idea that everything can be fixed with gentleness. I don't think so. Everything can't be fixed anyway. Sometimes dogs are too far gone. Sometimes people are too far gone. Sometimes we just don't know what to do about it. There's tons of people out there that have no business having a dog but they do.
I don't want to start an arguement with you or make you feel unwelcome. Many of your arguments are way off target however. I strongly encourage you to do some good research, starting with what has already been laid out at the start of this thread. Good luck to you.
To add, I've been in situations with charging dogs and dogs rushing to attack me and my dogs. Im still alive, my dogs are fine, and no dogs were injured. It makes no sense to go out of your way to physically wrestle this strange vicious dog into "submission". Getting on the ground with this kind of dog is a recipe for a mauling.
"And I REALLY resent the idea that somehow people like me who ended up with an aggressive, unpredicatable dog some how "did" something to make our dogs like this. It has nothing to do with me not being "dominant" enough or any other CM bullshit. Yeah, I live everyday with one of these dogs, and it's not particularly easy, but if anyone tried this kind of crap on my dog, they would be very, very sorry."
Please, please do not take what I said as a blanket statement that all aggressive dogs have been caused by their owners! Not at all - like you said sometimes there are medical issues and extenuating circumstances. Clearly, you are dealing with that and I really commend you for all the dedication you have for your dogs. Our life is such that I would never under any circumstances be able to manage having dog/s that need to be separated at ALL times due to aggression. So truly, good job on being able to manage that. I'm sure that you put much time and effort into making your situation workable and giving your dogs a good life. I'm really looking for examples of what your method LOOKS like! ) The most we have to do is on the very rare occasion, have someone (mainly Mirra) have a timeout in which she is deprived of play and love. That's enough for her to adjust her mood.
@lindsayt - thanks for the good examples! Can you give more of how you distract? Thanks!!
Mirra (the Siberian Husky/Border Collie) had extreme fearful aggression when she was a young dog. We had just finished puppy classes when we took a trip to Lake Tahoe. We were walking down a path when a jogger rounded the corner just as we were rounding the corner! Bad, bad timing for Mirra but no way to avoid it! There were other people around but because the jogger rounded the corner at the same time we did (so in Mirra's eyes the jogger was running AT us) she immediately went into protection mode and lunged and looked like a wild vicious attack dog, lol. So, at the time she was only 6 months old so I picked her up and removed her from the situation, got her calmed down (she was paranoid the rest of the day about corners and people)
After lots of work, socialization, outings and fun...today... Mirra may fear bark if she is surprised, but that's about all I get from her. She has confidence in me and trusts my judgement because I've earned that with her... Also, I always remained calm so that she could draw that "energy" from me. Animals are very in tune to our emotions - here is where dogs and horses are very similar despite being predator/prey different. To this day Mirra can go anywhere with me, she may get nervous but looks to me for what to do. She doesn't lash out anymore (just a "hey, you surprised me - I didn't like that!") She is also extremely good at ignoring other dogs now too. If one starts in with her when we are on a walk, I kinda giggle because to put it in human terms she is being so passive aggressive but she does the head drop and eye to eye stare but keeps walking merrily beside me without any hitch in her giddy-up.
BUT!!! What if I hadn't worked with her so much as a pup and now she was a 65lb ball of fur going berserk at a jogger who scared the poop out of her? I surely couldn't just pick her up and go somewhere quiet with her - especially if I were afraid she might bite me (which btw she never would bite me, lol - the rough and tumble girl wont even pull too hard when playing tug with us, lol) but what if? I would really like to know what the non aggressive method would look like in that circumstance. For the safety of the jogger who was inches from her at puppy hood would most likely have been bit had Mirra been an adult and been able to protect herself like she was feeling she needed to?
So, in the beginning she took a lot of work - and if someone had choked her out or been to domineering with her she could have easily been ruined. She's too sensitive of a dog for that, so when I integrated *some* of CM techniques it was on a much much lesser scale to accommodate her temperament. IMHO I think that is where people get his techniques wrong. I've seen it happen in the horse training world too. People look at a situation and are not trained themselves enough to see it for what it is... they go home see something in their own animal that they *think* looks like what they saw at the trainers and proceed to use the extreme technique they saw being used on the animal that was way out of control, which in turn confuses their own animal and has a backlash effect on everyone involved. Hmmm Hope that makes sense...lol
To me I think the most important thing to remember in training is that each animal is different and you can't have a set of rules set in stone for ALL animals. They all may need something a little different here and there. To me, that is the value of a good trainer. One who is willing to bend and find the right method that works for the betterment of the animal.
I find it interesting how people feel that the CM's patented belly kick/poke is not abusive or harmful. The belly is a VERY sensitive area, and experimenting on poking human friend's bellies will show that it is irritating at the least. Heck, even a light, open palmed slap, with less momentum than CM does, can at times cause people to lose their breath and clutch their stomach.
If a person feels the need to punish a dog, it can be done without having to cause pain. When I brought home Miyu, her and Tetsu did nothing but argue. Giving them time outs before an argument escalated, or even after breaking up an argument, really helped show them that "if you're going to be like this, then you're not going to get what you want". Dogs can easily learn a verbal "no" command, simply by removing them from what they want and without the use of aversives, and will know that "no" means to stop what they are doing.
In the end, it is all in how much a person is willing to manage and work with their dogs to mold them into what the owner/handler wants them to be. If a person feels the need to just base their training on what Hollywood throws at you, instead of actually doing research and educating themselves in what is out there, then why not watch "It's Me or the Dog" or "Super Fetch"? We forum members may seem like avid dog people, but you will see that many of us are just regular dog owners like everyone else in the world. The only difference is that when we had a problem behavior with a dog, we take the time to research and learn what's out there in order to make our own decisions in training, instead of just relying in what Hollywood wants us to see.
@Crispy - "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" I love that phrase, it tells so many truths.
It's funny, friends of mine initially started raising their child positively, but due to live stressors she had started inadvertently following the methods her parents raised her with. A child did something wrong gets a slap on the hand. It just subconsciously happened, and they didn't at first understand why their child was starting to hit the dog when it was "being bad". Once they figured it out, they started take conscious efforts to not use aversives when "punishing" their child, and the child stopped expressing it's frustrations in a physical manner.
I have seen dogs react in a similar manner, those who have been corrected physically are often more quick to react to a situation in a physical manner. At the dog park, the dogs who have been raised under CM style training are often the ones who will join in on(and are hard to remove from) a fight. While those who were raised without the dominance mantra over their heads had kept their distance and were easy to direct away from the altercation.
In regard to reactivity this may help explain developments that often owners are not aware they are doing that makes some problems worse. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2225?source=mnl_03_1204 I call it cohersive nagging. How people handle is crucial. Rolling, tapping, poking and prodding does not reassure most mammals when social pressure is applied.
Learning to manage dogs and recognize small signals is the biggest factor in circumventing problems before they are really big problems. Behavior characteristics are different for each dog, and within a group the dynamics will also change up for each animal you add to a given space or resource area. This requires different strategies (time outs, removal from threat to name two) to prevent escalation of fear responses, which as Crispy mentions and I also firmly believe, is the number one cause of reactive aggression aside from lack of early or ongoing socialization.
As far as fully aggressive dogs, I do not believe anyone will be able to say exactly what to do safely based a mere forum, as each case is different and requires evaluation. Honestly there isn't a cut and dry method/recipe to be used for each dog once "over threshold" behaviors appear, and that is the hitch. Assigning 4 principles sounds fine and dandy on tv a book etc but the majority of dogs that are reactive (outside of CMs easy obedience cases) will not simply fit into that mold any longer.
The average dog in the average family seems to be very forgiving of owner mistakes thank goodness. Although with sensitive dogs or mismanaged dogs for one reason or another (physiology, poor handling, mismatched placement or combination there of) will not be as flexible. When that is the reality, without a buffer (combined owner handling and management), the dog feels a need to direct/protect itself whatever direction that leads. Setting up for success as Lindsay mentions is soooo important, before problems occur. Not all dogs are mentally/neurologically equipped to overcome the hurdles so that has to be weighted as well in an action plan. It is important to avoid putting dogs in a situation they can not handle.
Many dogs go through a stage of irritation and alarm when startled with regard people objects running up behind them or directly forward toward them. Providing "outs" for them by directional blocking whenever possible and redirection of outburst onto another object or use of safety measures such as muzzle when you know your dog is unpredictable and will startle or aggress in a crowd or blind curve is the right thing to do. When in doubt put equipment to use until you can get to a sight zone or situation that gives view all angles. 99% can be controlled however the 1% is where owner proactive prep needs to be in place once the dog has established itself as unpredictable.
So I don't have my own dog yet... hoping for a Shikoku or maybe a Kai. I do know you have to find what works for the dog. Personally I was considering using a full spectrum negative positive punishment reinforcement. I don't want to Cm my dog since those methods don't seem good for NK. However, sometimes you need a stronger correction than NO. For example, if the dog is chewing on the table or your expensive high heel shoes, and actually know no means no but ignores you. What do you guys use?
I use a squirt bottle on my cat, it has good results when she is not in a playful mood. Sometimes she turns it into a game -_- I figure dogs are more so prone to make that a game. We have had family dogs, I just haven't had my own dog before. I no longer live at home but they only recently got a spitz type dog, and they have taken a much different training approach because he is very different than the golden retrievers dad usually has (been pretty proud of him for realizing that "matthew" needs something else). Hes a malamute mix and very independent, I was home a month ago and he decided he was taking himself for a walk. He just started walking down the driveway and wouldn't come, so we walked over to him and grabbed him (he didn't try to run or anything). Had to wait for my sister to get the lease because he wouldn't let you walk him with the collar... laid down and started playing -_- lease on... different dog, instant obedience.
The trainer of my last class had us put pennies or rocks in soda cans, tape them closed, and keep them around the house. When the dog does something wrong, is pulling on the lead, jumps on a guest, etc - throw the can behind them. Toss it under handed, don't hit the dog with it intentionally, and always aim in the direction of their rear end not the front. But the important part, he said, was to NEVER let the dog see you throwing or picking up the can. The dog knows its coming from you, but the fact that he can't catch you in the act will drive him nuts and he'll spend more time focused on you, watching and waiting for you to throw it. Having an assistant (like my ever dutiful husband) helps with this. He would silently go around behind us on walks, picking up the cans and sneaking them back into my jacked pocket.
Obviously this isn't something you should do with a very skittish or fearful dog. (Part of why I chose not to go back to that class with my new girl, who would be scared out of her mind if I ever did that.)
EDIT: The soda can "trick" was introduced very late in the class. Its ONLY to be used when the dog has already learned the desired behavior or command and you're just working on consistency. I'm not advocating this method, just passing on what our last trainer had us do.
EDIT x2: To reiterate upon @StaticNfuzz's post below, the key to "setting up for success" is management. Don't let the dog get into situations where he has the choice to do something you don't want, like chewing on your high heel shoes. Put the shoes away out of Fido's reach and/or crate Fido when you're not home.
LizzySt: think about proactive measures. I would ask myself what could I have done to set this dog up for success a little better. Break it down to bits in the thought process and kick the correction thing out the door.
1. Do not let a dog not fully trained off leash in a non fenced area (if that is what is going on). 2. Pair returning to you with reward (toy, food, motion) long before the leash is used. 3. Avoid grabbing and hauling as the dog will quickly figure out he is larger and will put the weight into it to avoid the nagging etc. 4. why are high heels in the zone of dogs proximal view?
This is part of setting up for success.
Yep, Dogs can behave very differently on leash and off if training has been applied differently with on and off scenarios. They are wise enough to know leash length up to the last millimeter. Start work off leash in a safe yard so that the dog starts following and offering behaviors as if he is on leash. Think invisible leash (where the leash would actually be) as you train.
To be quite honest if you are not nagging verbally or physically ....ie. too much chatty or pokey then the dog will take the "ah ah", "clap" or "nos" more seriously. Really you should not need a stronger "correction". If you can not watch the dog, be near enough to lure him away then the dog needs to be in a safe zone since he technically unsupervised.
Optionally keep a favorite item on you so you can redirect the chewing behavior and the dog back to you.
Lots of good stuff on these posts in regard to training. Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Cathy Sdao, Karen Pryor.....lots more to choose from of quality.
@CarabooA...I was responding more to the post from Carlkai than from you. From your most recent post, too, I'd say you have an idea of how to deal with problem dogs, because you worked it out with your dog. It is a very slow process, and as SnF said, it's hard to say what it looks like, because it's not the same for every dog.
@carlikai....I don't get a sense from your post that you read what we were talking about, because you seem to be repeating the same arguments. And the fact is, we are avid in our love and interest of dogs, but we are mostly just ordinary dog owners too, trying different things and learning. CM's methods will NOT help the average dog owner. As many positive trainers stress, and I believe, the first thing is to "do no harm" and that is a much safer method to pass on to the "average" dog owner than it is to say it is ok to abuse a dog in the name of "training." I understand having to use extreme methods if there is a dog fight--but that is different that the video of CM hanging a dog and saying he is "training" it. That was not a fight. No animals--including people--learn while they are in pain or in a state of fear for their lives. It makes no sense whatsoever. And I don't know what to say about thinking kicking a dog is ok. I think we have a hugely different view on what is acceptable with animals. I do not think hitting/kicking/hanging an animal is acceptable, and I don't even really know what to say to people who think that it is. Pain should not be a part of learning, in my mind, and I am really disturbed that some people think it is ok.
Recognizing problems and intervening can be a huge problem. The mistakes I made with my Shibas were not from being "wimpy" or not training correctly (in fact, when I had my male Shiba as a pup, I was still using coercive methods, though I was transitioning out of them. I stopped them because I could see quite clearly that dominance based methods made him much, much worse, not better. My mistake was not recognizing bullying between two dogs and not intervening sooner. It's possible that if I had recognized that the male Shiba was consistently bullying the female, I could have avoided some of the problems--but the so-called behavioralist I called in used dominance based methods and assured me the dogs would "sort out" their pack problems if I was "alpha" enough, and though I doubted her, I let them "sort it out" and one dog nearly killed the other (I have since learned some of her other clients did, in fact, lose dogs this way as the bullying dogs killed the other dogs). There's nothing I can do now about that, though I'm much clearer on signs of what are appropriate and inappropriate among my dogs and am willing to intervene sooner.
Also, Crispy's point that "fear doesn't always look like fear" is invaluable, and one that I started to make but was too tired to. My fearful male never looked liked an anxious dog. He looked a bully. He was always ready to attack anything he considered a threat. He "liked" to fight I thought. Now that he is 8, his fearfulness is alittle more clearly anxiety, but also, I now know his fear of other dogs motivated much of his fighting--he was going to get them before they got him. This is the case with many reactive dogs.
And yes, in terms of training, once I went over to positive training, I've had much more success with my dogs, because they enjoy working and see it as a fun game! The only aversives I have to use, for the most part, are the "nah, nah, nah" which we use generally if they are starting to do something we don't want (like growling at the puppy, or one of the Shibas counter surfing) and once they stop, we redirect to something they get a reward for (like sitting). There have been occasions when I've yelled "NO!" and since we almost never use it, it always stops them right away! (Actually, yelling anything would work--they never hear yelling so they immediately stop to see what that's about).
Shibamistress writes: As many positive trainers stress, and I believe, the first thing is to "do no harm" and that is a much safer method to pass on to the "average" dog owner than it is to say it is ok to abuse a dog in the name of "training." ...."No animals--including people--learn while they are in pain or in a state of fear for their lives. It makes no sense whatsoever. No animals--including people--learn while they are in pain or in a state of fear for their lives. It makes no sense whatsoever".
---Yep Completely agree. Learn to recognize the behaviors seen by turning off the sound and looking at the expressions. It's all too sad to call it training when looking at these older videos. Unfortunately many are confused or calloused about what is considered abusive when working with their canines. So so sad. Having some respect for the dog is part of benevolent leadership. Found this quick tidbit that can equally be applied the day to day.... it takes work, more than physical muscle. http://abetterdogblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/benevolent-leader-tbl.html and http://mackenzieheys.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/increase-trust-benevolent-leadership/
A quick note: funny you mention this, because I didn't actually listen to the CM videos when I first watched them....I just watched them with the sound off and was horrified by what I saw, because you can see by the body language of the dogs that they are confused, scared, etc. in many of those videos.
Well, I just want to say thank you to all for all the great posts about alternative dog training. I kinda feel like dog training is going through what horse training went through 20 years ago. The newer methods of joining up and round pen work still will get scoffed at by some people in the horse world, but for the vast majority it has really taken off, which is such a great thing to see. Horses (for the most part) are not being broken in but rather gentled and go through a process of "joining up" with their handler. It's a beautiful process and I like to think that dog training is getting there as well. Yay!
Well, um, CM does not, in my experience, help ordinary people's dogs at all. My neighbor, and quite a fan of CM, has this little schnauzer. Pepper is the most annoying thing in the world, it sounds like he's being killed when he barks but it's just the noise he makes. Well, I see the neighbor poke and prod and "tch" or whatever that obnoxious noise is, every time Pepper barks. Does nothing to stop the barking, and actually seemed to make him ramp up even more. I visited nthem ot too long ago and Pepper was going on and on about something. What did I do? Took Pepper away from the trigger. When he went out and began to bark again, I took him away from the trigger again (a neighbor's dog). Within about 10 minutes of doing this, he quit barking when he was outside. Unfortunately, this neighbor got a husky recently and "he doesn't listen" so they got a shock collar. He still "doesn't listen" especially when he knows the collar isn't on. Dogs are pretty smart, and people often don't give them credit for it. Aversive methods are NOT the way for so-called average dog owners. Not only is it abusive in many cases, it can cause the dog to develop worse behaviors than the originals they were trying to correct.
On a somewhat unrelated note, aversive methods would (and do, my uncle tried "training" this way until I told him to bugger off) make my Mom's dogs melt into puddles of jelly. When you teach them in a fun "lets learn how to sit!" manner rather than "I said SIT!" they not only learn faster, but greatly enjoy working with me. I'd rather have a relationship with my dog that is enforced by fun than enforced with fear.
@Losech I'd rather have a relationship with my dog that is enforced by fun than enforced with fear
I think this is key for all human/animal relationships, I'd throw trust and reliability in with the fun part. No fear needed when they trust your judgement.
@Caraboo....actually, dog training went through this years ago too. Probably about the same time horse training did. Many good trainers think CM has set dog training back 20 years or more, and I agree.
lol my high heel was a theoretical shoe... bad example I guess. I try to do the keep things clean thing with the cat.... but my current roommate does not follow my lead or suggestions. So the cat steal her pens, tampons and knocks glasses of water over all the time. Apparently the other day she let my cat knock the same glass of water over 5 times in one morning -_- and expected me to have sympathy.
Not planing to leave anything out but toys, but thinks for the ideas. The can thing is funny and makes me think of pretending to throw a tennis ball and holding it behind my back.
I'm not really talking about my own dogs. As you guys are describing all the positive ways to train...that's what I do too. My dogs are the most pampered and never tormented in any way. I've been to dog training and agility classes for years. i haven't had to do anything heavy handed but once and that was yelling. I just think I've learned a lot of good things from CM and to rule him out completely with out extracting all the good he does doesn't seem right to me. I won't be jumping on this feed anytime soon. So...there's a new show coming on network TV. Another dog trainer. I'm just saying there's a lot of badly behaved untrained dogs out there due to their owners being clueless. And they are dangerous. I just am not hearing any solutions offered for ALREADY dangerous dogs that we have to deal with.
So, I do have a problem with my dogs that maybe someone has a solution to...When they are in the van and I go into a store one of my dogs barks non stop. Barking is very hard to correct because you go away and they don't want to be separated. If I'm able to sneak behind the vehicle and into the store without her seeing me sometimes i can avert the problem. Sometimes I just have to go and listen to her bark. She also barks at oncoming dogs and once I had two dog classes in a row and she had to wait in a crate for her turn at class and she barked the whole time and drove everyone nuts including me. She won't take a bone or a toy under these circumstances. I'm about to head up north for a long drive and I will have to face this.
@carlikai what did the instructor do to address the barking issue?
I ask out of curiosity cause I have a barker too (though he barks for entirely different reasons), and I don't want to give advice that you've already heard because I assume you might want to hear something new.
(p.s. maybe this barking topic should be a new thread?)
Good idea. I think barking problems are so common and annoying to neighbors that don't have dogs that people want to just do something drastic. There are the Ecollars. I have never tried them. But dogs are smart and figure out ways around. Nothing happened when my Molly was barking in the crate. The instructor suggested a Kong filled with food but it doesn't work. I'll start a new thread.
Covering crates with dark blankets and blocking windows has really helped my reactive barkers, and it works really well for others at trials and in classes with us. There is a It's Me or the Dog episode about this but with Great Danes.
This topic has received way too much of my time in the past. I have just basically given up on arguing with the CM meme, or the "balanced dog" meme, or the "dogs are wolves" meme. It's like arguing with religious fanatics - too blinded by their narrow view on a topic to ever be able to see a different side.
Truth is, if you ignore the "energy", "pack leader", "balanced", "dominant", "submissive"(, and etc) nonsense words CM preaches, the techniques he is using is strait out of Koehler's dog training info. Which is another way of saying he is a punishment-based trainer. He uses punishment, instead of reward, to train his dogs to do what he wants. Sometimes in his show he will call an action a reward, but typically his "rewards" are based on his misunderstanding of the old-school alpha/dominance concepts.
Anyway, @carlikai, my question for you is this: If there are 2 different ways you can train your dog to do a behavior - one uses punishment, and the other uses reward. Both ways require skill and could be used incorrectly, but only one (punishment) can potentially cause damage to you and your dog's relationship. Why would you choose to use punishment over reward?
See, this question is at the core of the reason why I don't like CM. If it is true what you are saying, that there's a lot of badly behaved untrained dogs out there, and so there is a need for a mainstream show to help educate the public on how to better understand and train their dogs...
Well, doesn't it make more sense for that show to be teaching the public methods that, even if used incorrectly, do not do damage to their dog and their relationship?
Taking it even further, that show should be teaching the public to read their dog and understand dog behavior based on actual proven science and not a misunderstanding of an outmoded alpha/dominance concept?
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Going back to @CarabooA's question, another issue I have with CM is his use and marketing of this "rehabilitation" concept. As if a dog who has suffered some type of trauma that has lead them to physiologically react aggressive or fearful to a specific stimuli can be "fixed". As if CM, or anyone, can take a dog who has suffered in the past and "fix" him or undo the past trauma making him "balanced" again. It's just nonsense.
Let's use common sense here... Does that work with people? No.
People who have been abused or have lived through some type of trauma in their life can't just be "fixed". They can learn to manage the effects of the trauma, they can learn coping skills, they can learn avoidance, and they can learn to mimic normalcy... but the damage is always there. It's ever present - I'm speaking from experience here, no matter what you do it's still always there.
Can you think of an example where a person who has been altered due to trauma can have that alteration undone by physical punishment?
So, going back to what @shibamistress, @StaticNfuzz, @Calia, @lindsayt, and others have written already. You deal with dogs who have experienced trauma, or are born with a mental condition, via proper management - setting them up for success, teaching them coping skills, and teaching them "incompatible behaviors" that help them appear to act normal in public.
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Now let's talk about what training a dog actually is - what it actually does. It's a simple concept, really. You teach a dog to preform a behavior you want to see more of. That's what training is. Behaviors are simple actions, when chained together they become complex behaviors.
When you are looking at a situation where you need to train a dog to do something, you should consider all of the steps it takes for that dog to perform your requested behavior. Then you train each behavior independently, and later chain them together.
The more you reinforce (reward) a behavior the more the dog will preform the behavior. The less you reinforce a behavior the less the dog will perform the behavior. Some behaviors override other behaviors - like jumping up on you - a dog can't be jumping up on you and sit at the same time. So you reward your dog for the sit behavior, and ignore the jumping behavior, and you are training your dog to sit instead of jump when he greats you.
Punishment can be used to lessen the occurrence of a behavior quicker than simply ignoring. You use punishment (a correction) to associate a negative consequence with a behavior. Using the same example as above - you reward your dog when he sits, and punish him when he jumps on you. Your choice of punishment can be as simple and non-adversive as walking away (removing your attention is a negative consequence for jumping on you - punishment) to kicking the dog in the nuts (which is a physical correction - also punishment).
When choosing the appropriate punishment to use, you should consider all of the repercussions that can come from the punishment, with the understanding that your dog doesn't see the situation exactly the way you see it. Your dog doesn't understand that jumping on you is "rude" or "inappropriate"... He just wants your attention and is excited to see you. So kicking him in the nuts for jumping you you could be read (by your dog) as "I was so excited to see dad, but when I went to play with him he kicked me. Dad is crazy and mean, I'm not sure I like him that much" ...
Do you see how using physical punishment can inadvertently cause harm to your and your dog's relationship? Wouldn't it be safer to use a less physical approach and simply walk away? Then, perhaps your dogs would still be confused, but you will not have hurt your relationship with him over the confusion.
YES! GREAT POST, Brad! Covers everything I would ever want to say on the subject!
eta: except a slight digression: I believe trauma can heal in people--possibly in animals too--but even in people, when you can talk it through, do all sorts of various treatments for it, it is VERY hard to do and a very slow process. There are some techniques that can help people begin to recover from PTSD, for example, but obviously those are not things we would use for animals. Anyway, that's a digression--also based in personal experience--but something I was thinking of.
Comments
I just watched the full first vid and I do not understand, for the life of me, why Milan made his presence so "large" with that fearful/aggressive fawn Dane. That poor dog looks terrified (lunging forward and retreating) and he's just escalating the situation, imo.
Another example that comes to mind is an episode where he's "socializing" a Maltese to the brush and he's essentially terrorizing the dog by flooding it and lifting it up by the lead when it reacts. I understand that he may do well in some areas, but I feel like you can literally go through every episode and find an example of him being way too heavy-handed.
Ok, so how do you stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person?
That's the main question I have for this group too - using the methods that you guys are talking about (non CM methods). I've seen it in the horse world and in the dog world alike. The animal has been raised by people who really don't know what they are doing and inadvertently teach the animal a long list of dangerous behaviors that will either hurt: the animal, the handler/owner, another animal or handler/owner or all of the above. There are some people out there who really shouldn't own animals (until they learn how to raise them) but they do, and I've seen some pretty messed up animals raised by people who are really just ignorant to what they are teaching.
I love working with horses as they are the spirit of my soul. However, over the years there has been one horse that I refused to work with because it was not fearful aggressive (that I can change using gentle methods and earning trust) but it was "I'm going to attack you and kill you aggressive". I had done nothing more than walk into it's pasture (it was pastured with 3 other horses) and attempt to gauge it's state of mind simply by watching it interact with the other horses, observing not intruding. It singled me out from the horses and I feared for my life that day, and I'm not exaggerating - rearing, charging striking with teeth bared.... I couldn't get out of that pasture quick enough. I know that this horse was not born with a desire to kill people, it somewhere along the way learned to do these things. This horse was in absolutely no way afraid of me. It knew 100% how to make me afraid of it. Now, a dog isn't a 1500# animal but they can do damage just as quick if they are attacking from that same state of mind.... SO...lol
**How would you (and I'm going to be ornery and use a CM word..haha) rehabilitate a dog that is doing ill behaviors because it has learned that it can fight and win?** Or would you deem it not fit to be part of society and have it humanely euthanized?
I'm not talking about any of the dogs who are fearful. That's a whole different ball game to me. I'm talking about a dog who flat out wants to fight to win to get what it wants. Whether it be to attack an approaching dog/person...whatever, you name it. I feel like on some of CM's extreme videos that is what he was dealing with and - No, it wouldn't be for the greenhorn to attempt as they can misread an animals signals/intent and not be quick enough with their interactions with said animal?
So while I manage them, I also tried to get at the root of her problem, and tried a lot of different meds to see if anything would work. NOthing did. We did find out she was low thyroid--and I wonder how often CM calls in a vet consult to make sure these dogs aren't low thyroid or have other issues? A few years later we discovered she has a seizure disorder. Now that she is treated for her hypthyroidism and epilepsy, she is a much more manageable dog. She would still kill my other Shiba if she could, instantly, but she is now pretty well behaved with other dogs. It's taken four years, and yes, I did come close to giving up on her sometimes, but I did not, and I'm glad I did not. And if I had used those aversive methods on her, it would have broken her completely and would NOT have stopped her aggression.
And I REALLY resent the idea that somehow people like me who ended up with an aggressive, unpredicatable dog some how "did" something to make our dogs like this. It has nothing to do with me not being "dominant" enough or any other CM bullshit. Yeah, I live everyday with one of these dogs, and it's not particularly easy, but if anyone tried this kind of crap on my dog, they would be very, very sorry.
There are people on the Shiba side who have dealt with Shiba who are aggressive towards people. One person has been repeatedly bit by their dog. They do not give in to these kind of methods, which wouldn't help, but rather take the often painfully slow method of rehabiliting a dog through patience and postive training. It does work--and often in cases where it might not, I suspect the dog has a medical problem.
Why would anyone think it would be a good idea to take an already "aggressive" dog and use violence on it is beyond me. ESPECIALLY if the animal had a history of biting people. All the animal would learn is that, indeed, humans are violent and something to be feared, and therefore attacked.
Sometimes, people and animals are proactive about their fears. My Malamute used to be extremely fear aggressive with other dogs after getting attacked a few times - his fear escalated to where he would lunge, preemptively, and try to attack other dogs. Most people don't see this as "fear". Most people saw my 100 pound dog lunging and spitting and snarling and figured he was a man (or dog) eater. Really, it's just that London learned that exhibiting these behaviors was a really awesome and quick way to make the scary things go away.
A lot of the CM videos that have been linked here feature fear-aggressive dogs he's much too heavy-handed with or frustrated dogs that redirect their frustration onto him when he mis/man-handles them (see: Shadow, the Malamute mix in that last video or the Bulldog he lifts by the skin - those dogs are redirecting their frustration).
@carlikai wrote: Ok, so how do you stop a problem dog that is in the process of attacking another dog or person?
When I'm working the yards and straight-up dog fight breaks out (which is extremely rare, but we test all the dogs that come in), do what you can to separate the dogs. Most people go to screaming and yelling, but I tend to avoid this because it only makes the situation worse. I'm almost always silent and I always manage the aggressor first (never the reactive dog, unless the reactive dog BECOMES the aggressor). Some dogs are harder to separate. Some dogs are impossible to separate by yourself.
In my experience, a dog that people refer to as a dog that "fights to win" or "fights because they like it" or "because he's a jerk" is a dog that may be suffering from some anxiety in one form or another. Again, this is just my experience and I'm by no means an expert and this may not apply to every dog, but I just don't think CM methods are adequate for dealing with aggressive dogs (fearful or otherwise). You don't treat aggression with aggression, imo. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
People like CM because he gets dramatic results in a short time for TV. The truth is that aggression is not an easy fix and it can take years or even a dog's entire life to become "rehabilitated". As the owner of two fear-aggressive dogs (from entirely different walks of life with entirely different problems), it can be frustrating and taxing and some days you see no progress and other days, you can't believe how much progress they've made. It's a slow, ongoing process that requires patience and understanding.
Good post.
@carlikai
I do have scuffles break out from time to time and seperating them as quickly as possible resolves the fight. Of course, preventing the fights with good management, learning to spot warning signs, taking classes, etc, is the ultimate solution. The mindset Cesar creates with his clients is to "put the fire out" instead of prevent it and plan ahead. If his clients are too "wimpy" to manage their dogs on their own, how reasonable is it to expect that they will be successful in the long term with physically manhandling a dog for every infraction?
An old timey term for fear related aggression is "reactive aggression", the "I will get you before you can get me" mindset, and people often fail to see it as fear, but it is indeed fear based.
@CarabooA
"**How would you (and I'm going to be ornery and use a CM word..haha) rehabilitate a dog that is doing ill behaviors because it has learned that it can fight and win?** Or would you deem it not fit to be part of society and have it humanely euthanized?"
Don't let them win anymore. Dogs are smart, they can learn which behaviors pay and which behaviors don't. People control every single resource for their dogs, and the dog has a choice to comply or go without. Barring medical reasons for aggression/fear, and taking into consideration that some breeds have a very strong instinct to be intolerant of strangers and strange dogs (like livestock dogs), most things can be improved or resolve with good managment, prevention, and setting the dog up for success. Sometimes dogs do need to be euthanized for behavior.
I usually try to diffuse everything verbally and distract and regroup as much as possible (and my dogs respect that and are familiar with being called away or recalling). There are usually so many routes to take to avoid the situation of a dog wanting to kill another dog, and so many signals the dogs give that they are uncomfortable, there really shouldn't ever be a need for a physical intervention except if the dumb human misses those signals and a fight breaks out (then it is just seperating the dogs and removing them as fast as possible).
I don't want to start an arguement with you or make you feel unwelcome. Many of your arguments are way off target however. I strongly encourage you to do some good research, starting with what has already been laid out at the start of this thread. Good luck to you.
"And I REALLY resent the idea that somehow people like me who ended up with an aggressive, unpredicatable dog some how "did" something to make our dogs like this. It has nothing to do with me not being "dominant" enough or any other CM bullshit. Yeah, I live everyday with one of these dogs, and it's not particularly easy, but if anyone tried this kind of crap on my dog, they would be very, very sorry."
Please, please do not take what I said as a blanket statement that all aggressive dogs have been caused by their owners! Not at all - like you said sometimes there are medical issues and extenuating circumstances. Clearly, you are dealing with that and I really commend you for all the dedication you have for your dogs. Our life is such that I would never under any circumstances be able to manage having dog/s that need to be separated at ALL times due to aggression. So truly, good job on being able to manage that. I'm sure that you put much time and effort into making your situation workable and giving your dogs a good life.
I'm really looking for examples of what your method LOOKS like!
@lindsayt - thanks for the good examples! Can you give more of how you distract? Thanks!!
Mirra (the Siberian Husky/Border Collie) had extreme fearful aggression when she was a young dog. We had just finished puppy classes when we took a trip to Lake Tahoe. We were walking down a path when a jogger rounded the corner just as we were rounding the corner! Bad, bad timing for Mirra but no way to avoid it! There were other people around but because the jogger rounded the corner at the same time we did (so in Mirra's eyes the jogger was running AT us) she immediately went into protection mode and lunged and looked like a wild vicious attack dog, lol. So, at the time she was only 6 months old so I picked her up and removed her from the situation, got her calmed down (she was paranoid the rest of the day about corners and people)
After lots of work, socialization, outings and fun...today... Mirra may fear bark if she is surprised, but that's about all I get from her. She has confidence in me and trusts my judgement because I've earned that with her... Also, I always remained calm so that she could draw that "energy" from me. Animals are very in tune to our emotions - here is where dogs and horses are very similar despite being predator/prey different. To this day Mirra can go anywhere with me, she may get nervous but looks to me for what to do. She doesn't lash out anymore (just a "hey, you surprised me - I didn't like that!") She is also extremely good at ignoring other dogs now too. If one starts in with her when we are on a walk, I kinda giggle because to put it in human terms she is being so passive aggressive but she does the head drop and eye to eye stare but keeps walking merrily beside me without any hitch in her giddy-up.
BUT!!! What if I hadn't worked with her so much as a pup and now she was a 65lb ball of fur going berserk at a jogger who scared the poop out of her? I surely couldn't just pick her up and go somewhere quiet with her - especially if I were afraid she might bite me (which btw she never would bite me, lol - the rough and tumble girl wont even pull too hard when playing tug with us, lol) but what if? I would really like to know what the non aggressive method would look like in that circumstance. For the safety of the jogger who was inches from her at puppy hood would most likely have been bit had Mirra been an adult and been able to protect herself like she was feeling she needed to?
So, in the beginning she took a lot of work - and if someone had choked her out or been to domineering with her she could have easily been ruined. She's too sensitive of a dog for that, so when I integrated *some* of CM techniques it was on a much much lesser scale to accommodate her temperament. IMHO I think that is where people get his techniques wrong. I've seen it happen in the horse training world too. People look at a situation and are not trained themselves enough to see it for what it is... they go home see something in their own animal that they *think* looks like what they saw at the trainers and proceed to use the extreme technique they saw being used on the animal that was way out of control, which in turn confuses their own animal and has a backlash effect on everyone involved. Hmmm Hope that makes sense...lol
To me I think the most important thing to remember in training is that each animal is different and you can't have a set of rules set in stone for ALL animals. They all may need something a little different here and there. To me, that is the value of a good trainer. One who is willing to bend and find the right method that works for the betterment of the animal.
If a person feels the need to punish a dog, it can be done without having to cause pain. When I brought home Miyu, her and Tetsu did nothing but argue. Giving them time outs before an argument escalated, or even after breaking up an argument, really helped show them that "if you're going to be like this, then you're not going to get what you want". Dogs can easily learn a verbal "no" command, simply by removing them from what they want and without the use of aversives, and will know that "no" means to stop what they are doing.
In the end, it is all in how much a person is willing to manage and work with their dogs to mold them into what the owner/handler wants them to be. If a person feels the need to just base their training on what Hollywood throws at you, instead of actually doing research and educating themselves in what is out there, then why not watch "It's Me or the Dog" or "Super Fetch"? We forum members may seem like avid dog people, but you will see that many of us are just regular dog owners like everyone else in the world. The only difference is that when we had a problem behavior with a dog, we take the time to research and learn what's out there in order to make our own decisions in training, instead of just relying in what Hollywood wants us to see.
@Crispy - "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" I love that phrase, it tells so many truths.
It's funny, friends of mine initially started raising their child positively, but due to live stressors she had started inadvertently following the methods her parents raised her with. A child did something wrong gets a slap on the hand. It just subconsciously happened, and they didn't at first understand why their child was starting to hit the dog when it was "being bad". Once they figured it out, they started take conscious efforts to not use aversives when "punishing" their child, and the child stopped expressing it's frustrations in a physical manner.
I have seen dogs react in a similar manner, those who have been corrected physically are often more quick to react to a situation in a physical manner. At the dog park, the dogs who have been raised under CM style training are often the ones who will join in on(and are hard to remove from) a fight. While those who were raised without the dominance mantra over their heads had kept their distance and were easy to direct away from the altercation.
How people handle is crucial. Rolling, tapping, poking and prodding does not reassure most mammals when social pressure is applied.
Learning to manage dogs and recognize small signals is the biggest factor in circumventing problems before they are really big problems. Behavior characteristics are different for each dog, and within a group the dynamics will also change up for each animal you add to a given space or resource area. This requires different strategies (time outs, removal from threat to name two) to prevent escalation of fear responses, which as Crispy mentions and I also firmly believe, is the number one cause of reactive aggression aside from lack of early or ongoing socialization.
As far as fully aggressive dogs, I do not believe anyone will be able to say exactly what to do safely based a mere forum, as each case is different and requires evaluation. Honestly there isn't a cut and dry method/recipe to be used for each dog once "over threshold" behaviors appear, and that is the hitch. Assigning 4 principles sounds fine and dandy on tv a book etc but the majority of dogs that are reactive (outside of CMs easy obedience cases) will not simply fit into that mold any longer.
The average dog in the average family seems to be very forgiving of owner mistakes thank goodness. Although with sensitive dogs or mismanaged dogs for one reason or another (physiology, poor handling, mismatched placement or combination there of) will not be as flexible. When that is the reality, without a buffer (combined owner handling and management), the dog feels a need to direct/protect itself whatever direction that leads. Setting up for success as Lindsay mentions is soooo important, before problems occur. Not all dogs are mentally/neurologically equipped to overcome the hurdles so that has to be weighted as well in an action plan. It is important to avoid putting dogs in a situation they can not handle.
Many dogs go through a stage of irritation and alarm when startled with regard people objects running up behind them or directly forward toward them. Providing "outs" for them by directional blocking whenever possible and redirection of outburst onto another object or use of safety measures such as muzzle when you know your dog is unpredictable and will startle or aggress in a crowd or blind curve is the right thing to do. When in doubt put equipment to use until you can get to a sight zone or situation that gives view all angles. 99% can be controlled however the 1% is where owner proactive prep needs to be in place once the dog has established itself as unpredictable.
Snf
What do you guys use?
I use a squirt bottle on my cat, it has good results when she is not in a playful mood. Sometimes she turns it into a game -_- I figure dogs are more so prone to make that a game. We have had family dogs, I just haven't had my own dog before. I no longer live at home but they only recently got a spitz type dog, and they have taken a much different training approach because he is very different than the golden retrievers dad usually has (been pretty proud of him for realizing that "matthew" needs something else). Hes a malamute mix and very independent, I was home a month ago and he decided he was taking himself for a walk. He just started walking down the driveway and wouldn't come, so we walked over to him and grabbed him (he didn't try to run or anything). Had to wait for my sister to get the lease because he wouldn't let you walk him with the collar... laid down and started playing -_- lease on... different dog, instant obedience.
Obviously this isn't something you should do with a very skittish or fearful dog. (Part of why I chose not to go back to that class with my new girl, who would be scared out of her mind if I ever did that.)
EDIT: The soda can "trick" was introduced very late in the class. Its ONLY to be used when the dog has already learned the desired behavior or command and you're just working on consistency. I'm not advocating this method, just passing on what our last trainer had us do.
EDIT x2: To reiterate upon @StaticNfuzz's post below, the key to "setting up for success" is management. Don't let the dog get into situations where he has the choice to do something you don't want, like chewing on your high heel shoes. Put the shoes away out of Fido's reach and/or crate Fido when you're not home.
1. Do not let a dog not fully trained off leash in a non fenced area (if that is what is going on).
2. Pair returning to you with reward (toy, food, motion) long before the leash is used.
3. Avoid grabbing and hauling as the dog will quickly figure out he is larger and will put the weight into it to avoid the nagging etc.
4. why are high heels in the zone of dogs proximal view?
This is part of setting up for success.
Yep, Dogs can behave very differently on leash and off if training has been applied differently with on and off scenarios. They are wise enough to know leash length up to the last millimeter. Start work off leash in a safe yard so that the dog starts following and offering behaviors as if he is on leash. Think invisible leash (where the leash would actually be) as you train.
To be quite honest if you are not nagging verbally or physically ....ie. too much chatty or pokey then the dog will take the "ah ah", "clap" or "nos" more seriously. Really you should not need a stronger "correction". If you can not watch the dog, be near enough to lure him away then the dog needs to be in a safe zone since he technically unsupervised.
Optionally keep a favorite item on you so you can redirect the chewing behavior and the dog back to you.
Lots of good stuff on these posts in regard to training. Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Cathy Sdao, Karen Pryor.....lots more to choose from of quality.
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@carlikai....I don't get a sense from your post that you read what we were talking about, because you seem to be repeating the same arguments. And the fact is, we are avid in our love and interest of dogs, but we are mostly just ordinary dog owners too, trying different things and learning. CM's methods will NOT help the average dog owner. As many positive trainers stress, and I believe, the first thing is to "do no harm" and that is a much safer method to pass on to the "average" dog owner than it is to say it is ok to abuse a dog in the name of "training." I understand having to use extreme methods if there is a dog fight--but that is different that the video of CM hanging a dog and saying he is "training" it. That was not a fight. No animals--including people--learn while they are in pain or in a state of fear for their lives. It makes no sense whatsoever. And I don't know what to say about thinking kicking a dog is ok. I think we have a hugely different view on what is acceptable with animals. I do not think hitting/kicking/hanging an animal is acceptable, and I don't even really know what to say to people who think that it is. Pain should not be a part of learning, in my mind, and I am really disturbed that some people think it is ok.
Recognizing problems and intervening can be a huge problem. The mistakes I made with my Shibas were not from being "wimpy" or not training correctly (in fact, when I had my male Shiba as a pup, I was still using coercive methods, though I was transitioning out of them. I stopped them because I could see quite clearly that dominance based methods made him much, much worse, not better. My mistake was not recognizing bullying between two dogs and not intervening sooner. It's possible that if I had recognized that the male Shiba was consistently bullying the female, I could have avoided some of the problems--but the so-called behavioralist I called in used dominance based methods and assured me the dogs would "sort out" their pack problems if I was "alpha" enough, and though I doubted her, I let them "sort it out" and one dog nearly killed the other (I have since learned some of her other clients did, in fact, lose dogs this way as the bullying dogs killed the other dogs). There's nothing I can do now about that, though I'm much clearer on signs of what are appropriate and inappropriate among my dogs and am willing to intervene sooner.
Also, Crispy's point that "fear doesn't always look like fear" is invaluable, and one that I started to make but was too tired to. My fearful male never looked liked an anxious dog. He looked a bully. He was always ready to attack anything he considered a threat. He "liked" to fight I thought. Now that he is 8, his fearfulness is alittle more clearly anxiety, but also, I now know his fear of other dogs motivated much of his fighting--he was going to get them before they got him. This is the case with many reactive dogs.
And yes, in terms of training, once I went over to positive training, I've had much more success with my dogs, because they enjoy working and see it as a fun game! The only aversives I have to use, for the most part, are the "nah, nah, nah" which we use generally if they are starting to do something we don't want (like growling at the puppy, or one of the Shibas counter surfing) and once they stop, we redirect to something they get a reward for (like sitting). There have been occasions when I've yelled "NO!" and since we almost never use it, it always stops them right away! (Actually, yelling anything would work--they never hear yelling so they immediately stop to see what that's about).
---Yep Completely agree. Learn to recognize the behaviors seen by turning off the sound and looking at the expressions. It's all too sad to call it training when looking at these older videos. Unfortunately many are confused or calloused about what is considered abusive when working with their canines. So so sad. Having some respect for the dog is part of benevolent leadership. Found this quick tidbit that can equally be applied the day to day.... it takes work, more than physical muscle. http://abetterdogblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/benevolent-leader-tbl.html and http://mackenzieheys.wordpress.com/2011/04/29/increase-trust-benevolent-leadership/
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Unfortunately, this neighbor got a husky recently and "he doesn't listen" so they got a shock collar. He still "doesn't listen" especially when he knows the collar isn't on. Dogs are pretty smart, and people often don't give them credit for it.
Aversive methods are NOT the way for so-called average dog owners. Not only is it abusive in many cases, it can cause the dog to develop worse behaviors than the originals they were trying to correct.
On a somewhat unrelated note, aversive methods would (and do, my uncle tried "training" this way until I told him to bugger off) make my Mom's dogs melt into puddles of jelly. When you teach them in a fun "lets learn how to sit!" manner rather than "I said SIT!" they not only learn faster, but greatly enjoy working with me. I'd rather have a relationship with my dog that is enforced by fun than enforced with fear.
I'd rather have a relationship with my dog that is enforced by fun than enforced with fear
I think this is key for all human/animal relationships, I'd throw trust and reliability in with the fun part. No fear needed when they trust your judgement.
Not planing to leave anything out but toys, but thinks for the ideas. The can thing is funny and makes me think of pretending to throw a tennis ball and holding it behind my back.
So, I do have a problem with my dogs that maybe someone has a solution to...When they are in the van and I go into a store one of my dogs barks non stop. Barking is very hard to correct because you go away and they don't want to be separated. If I'm able to sneak behind the vehicle and into the store without her seeing me sometimes i can avert the problem. Sometimes I just have to go and listen to her bark. She also barks at oncoming dogs and once I had two dog classes in a row and she had to wait in a crate for her turn at class and she barked the whole time and drove everyone nuts including me. She won't take a bone or a toy under these circumstances. I'm about to head up north for a long drive and I will have to face this.
I ask out of curiosity cause I have a barker too (though he barks for entirely different reasons), and I don't want to give advice that you've already heard because I assume you might want to hear something new.
(p.s. maybe this barking topic should be a new thread?)
Truth is, if you ignore the "energy", "pack leader", "balanced", "dominant", "submissive"(, and etc) nonsense words CM preaches, the techniques he is using is strait out of Koehler's dog training info. Which is another way of saying he is a punishment-based trainer. He uses punishment, instead of reward, to train his dogs to do what he wants. Sometimes in his show he will call an action a reward, but typically his "rewards" are based on his misunderstanding of the old-school alpha/dominance concepts.
Anyway, @carlikai, my question for you is this: If there are 2 different ways you can train your dog to do a behavior - one uses punishment, and the other uses reward. Both ways require skill and could be used incorrectly, but only one (punishment) can potentially cause damage to you and your dog's relationship. Why would you choose to use punishment over reward?
See, this question is at the core of the reason why I don't like CM. If it is true what you are saying, that there's a lot of badly behaved untrained dogs out there, and so there is a need for a mainstream show to help educate the public on how to better understand and train their dogs...
Well, doesn't it make more sense for that show to be teaching the public methods that, even if used incorrectly, do not do damage to their dog and their relationship?
Taking it even further, that show should be teaching the public to read their dog and understand dog behavior based on actual proven science and not a misunderstanding of an outmoded alpha/dominance concept?
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Going back to @CarabooA's question, another issue I have with CM is his use and marketing of this "rehabilitation" concept. As if a dog who has suffered some type of trauma that has lead them to physiologically react aggressive or fearful to a specific stimuli can be "fixed". As if CM, or anyone, can take a dog who has suffered in the past and "fix" him or undo the past trauma making him "balanced" again. It's just nonsense.
Let's use common sense here... Does that work with people? No.
People who have been abused or have lived through some type of trauma in their life can't just be "fixed". They can learn to manage the effects of the trauma, they can learn coping skills, they can learn avoidance, and they can learn to mimic normalcy... but the damage is always there. It's ever present - I'm speaking from experience here, no matter what you do it's still always there.
Can you think of an example where a person who has been altered due to trauma can have that alteration undone by physical punishment?
So, going back to what @shibamistress, @StaticNfuzz, @Calia, @lindsayt, and others have written already. You deal with dogs who have experienced trauma, or are born with a mental condition, via proper management - setting them up for success, teaching them coping skills, and teaching them "incompatible behaviors" that help them appear to act normal in public.
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Now let's talk about what training a dog actually is - what it actually does. It's a simple concept, really. You teach a dog to preform a behavior you want to see more of. That's what training is. Behaviors are simple actions, when chained together they become complex behaviors.
When you are looking at a situation where you need to train a dog to do something, you should consider all of the steps it takes for that dog to perform your requested behavior. Then you train each behavior independently, and later chain them together.
The more you reinforce (reward) a behavior the more the dog will preform the behavior. The less you reinforce a behavior the less the dog will perform the behavior. Some behaviors override other behaviors - like jumping up on you - a dog can't be jumping up on you and sit at the same time. So you reward your dog for the sit behavior, and ignore the jumping behavior, and you are training your dog to sit instead of jump when he greats you.
Punishment can be used to lessen the occurrence of a behavior quicker than simply ignoring. You use punishment (a correction) to associate a negative consequence with a behavior. Using the same example as above - you reward your dog when he sits, and punish him when he jumps on you. Your choice of punishment can be as simple and non-adversive as walking away (removing your attention is a negative consequence for jumping on you - punishment) to kicking the dog in the nuts (which is a physical correction - also punishment).
When choosing the appropriate punishment to use, you should consider all of the repercussions that can come from the punishment, with the understanding that your dog doesn't see the situation exactly the way you see it. Your dog doesn't understand that jumping on you is "rude" or "inappropriate"... He just wants your attention and is excited to see you. So kicking him in the nuts for jumping you you could be read (by your dog) as "I was so excited to see dad, but when I went to play with him he kicked me. Dad is crazy and mean, I'm not sure I like him that much" ...
Do you see how using physical punishment can inadvertently cause harm to your and your dog's relationship? Wouldn't it be safer to use a less physical approach and simply walk away? Then, perhaps your dogs would still be confused, but you will not have hurt your relationship with him over the confusion.
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eta: except a slight digression: I believe trauma can heal in people--possibly in animals too--but even in people, when you can talk it through, do all sorts of various treatments for it, it is VERY hard to do and a very slow process. There are some techniques that can help people begin to recover from PTSD, for example, but obviously those are not things we would use for animals. Anyway, that's a digression--also based in personal experience--but something I was thinking of.