@renae Once again it's appreciative that you are so open with expressing the techniques you use with your dog. I think a lot of people do assume that when working with a dog anyone who thinks differently thinks in an extreme on that way, like it's hard to comprehend that you can do both CM stuff and Positive stuff. Personally, I can't stand any of the CM philosophy but I think mostly that's because a lot of people who do follow it do so ignorantly (I'm not saying this is you) and don't even bother with the Positive stuff.
Like you said "You take what feels right and works for you and your dog", I agree with that and I feel that is something we should all remember. Each person's philosophy is different (just as there are different religions and political views), and even when we don't agree on something it is still nice to hear the other side. It helps reinforce my own beliefs, as well as know that you can have an intelligent conversation with someone who sees differently than you.
@brada1878 yeah I think that's the link, I know you have explain it a million times on this forum
@renae - I too appreciate you enduring all of the rebuttals and not taking it personally.
I really only want to comment on two things, as I think it's important that we (as dog owners) do not continue to support these incorrect concepts (misunderstandings)...
You wrote: "To me, I don't like my dogs begging at my feet so I taught them to sit a couple of feet away from me when I'm eating but I don't mind them jumping on me. Its all preference to the owner. But Cesar isn't there train the dogs but to help change the unwanted behavior to a favorable behavior." >> I'm with you, I HATE dogs begging or being under my feet.
What I wanted to point out tho, is that changing (unwanted) behavior is training. Dog training is teaching a dog behaviors you like to see while teaching them not to do behaviors you don't like. That is exactly what CM does - he trains dogs.
I know he calls himself a "dog psychologist" (I've watched his shows and read his books too), but he really has no formal training in dog behavior or dog training. He only calls himself a "dog psychologist", which is a made up term, because he would be falsely representing himself if he called himself a Dog Behaviorist (as he has no formal education or degree in that field). CM is essentially a glorified (and self-taught) Koehler-method dog trainer (which is to say his methods are largely based on training dogs using punishment).
You wrote: "From my experience your method only encourages the bad behavior, being fearful. Nothing is instant and the panting and drooling is all the fight the dog put up to do its normal behavior and that's not healthy to be in that state of mind. I can tell you people do what Cesar does to get over fear, but dogs don't understand what's going on only knowing to fear the skateboard (continuing your example). So they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler that its not there to hurt them and they can be relax around it." >> This is really a dangerous misunderstanding that's very common in the dog world. The truth is, and it's been scientifically proven, you cannot reinforce an emotion. You can only reinforce a behavior. Treating a dog while they are being fearful does NOT reinforce their emotional state.
In the behavioral and training community, the behaviors you describe above (where you write "...they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler...") is called learned helplessness. When a dog is shut down like that (aka "learned helplessness") they are actually not learning anything. This is another thing that's been proven via science.
Dogs only learn (new) behaviors when they are not in a fearful or defensive state, the quickest way to get a dog out of a fearful state is to feed them as the mechanics of dog's brain works in a way where they cannot be fearful and eat at the same time (and they cannot learn when they are fearful).
By feeding a fearful dog you actually condition them to the fearful item by pairing it with positive stimuli (food). This is called Classical Conditioning, once the dog is taking food and no longer fearful (even tho the fearful item is still present), you can then start to teach them new behaviors (reinforce behaviors) and use the treats to reward them for those behaviors (which is reinforcement).
I, and many others, honestly feel that the scenario you described above is the single most dangerous concept CM has popularized, many many dogs are now being tortured by their owners who are forcing them to "confront their fears" because CM says that's the way you get them over it... but he couldn't be further from the truth in that aspect. It really is very dangerous to do this type of thing to a dog - you can create a fear biter (I'm speaking from experience here).
By feeding a fearful dog you actually condition them to the fearful item by pairing it with positive stimuli (food). This is called Classical Conditioning, once the dog is taking food and no longer fearful (even tho the fearful item is still present), you can then start to teach them new behaviors (reinforce behaviors) and use the treats to reward them for those behaviors (which is reinforcement).
I, and many others, honestly feel that the scenario you described above is the single most dangerous concept CM has popularized, many many dogs are now being tortured by their owners who are forcing them to "confront their fears" because CM says that's the way you get them over it... but he couldn't be further from the truth in that aspect. It really is very dangerous to do this type of thing to a dog - you can create a fear biter (I'm speaking from experience here).
I have been reading all the posts carefully, and I think that I'm finally ready to really chime in. I wanted to wait to get a better understanding of what exactly Renae was talking about when saying that she uses CM Methods because I don't think that all of them are used. I'm hoping that not all of them are used, especially the ones that I find physical assault methods.
I will chime in and try and back Brad up on his statement. Recently, as most of you know, Koda and I were hit by a car. Koda had been socialized and conditioned to be fine around cars, bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades, etc. I worked very diligently with him since he first came home at 9 weeks old to get him used to and ok with these items. One hit of a car, and all that conditioning went out the door. He would freak anytime a bicycle went by. My neighbor kids on their skateboards sent him into shaking turmoil. It was bad all around, and he lacked an ability to overcome his fear in a timely manner.
Many owners would become extremely frusterated with his new hysterical responses seeing them as irrational. I admit it frusterated me, but mostly made me sad for him.
I tried to get his attention and treat him when bikes would go by and he still flipped and wouldn't take food. This was my big red stop sign in front of my face. I can't force him not to be scared, so I took him away from the negative stimulus for a couple of weeks until he became a bit more emotionally stable. It took work. We had to drive out to hills to walk, stayed home when it was raining, and found dirt fire roads that no one drives on, but slowly he became more comfortable with being out.
So, we tried it again. We went to a semi-quiet area of the park and waited for a bicyclist. One came by, and I got his focus using treats. He flipped a bit, and I turned him away from the bike walking the other direction. We did it again. Bicycle came, I got his focus, he ignored the bicyclist I treated him.
It took a month to get Koda back. But the month and patience was well worth it. I have a dog who is finding his confidence and security back in the world of cars.
Had I used CM's methods and forced him to face his fears until he finally gave up, I'd be breaking his spirit. Sorry, but I couldn't live with myself if I f*cked up my dog that bad.
Trust me, I'm far from perfect. I have made mistakes with my dogs, and I don't want to act like I know everything. I truly don't, but for me, and what I feel is best for my dogs, is a bit more patience than most people have. It takes time to train a dog. From what I see of people using CM's methods is that they want that instantaneous gratification of speed training that emotionally breaks your dog.
@Renee I do think people are reading your responses.....we just don't agree. and of course, most of this discussion has little to do with what you actually DO to train your dogs....it's more that we're discussing the ideas and training philosophies (and for the most part everyone is doing that quite sanely, though I did take a bit of issue with you accusing DLRoberts of being rude, as he wasn't being rude--he was simply explaining the actual definition of two terms which are thrown around a lot but not actually used correctly).
It seems to me from reading your posts that you don't have a lot of experience with positive training/reinforcement and good positive trainers. And here I don't mean just praising your dog for something, but I mean doing real training whether it is clicker training or lure and reward. It seems to me that until you (general you here, meaning anyone) have a good working knowledge and experience with positive training, then it's hard to really know if it will work or not. When I first heard about it, years ago when I still did "traditional" training (ie.aversive training with leash pops, punishment, etc), I thought the ideas behind positive training were ridiculous. I thought, how would you ever train a dog unless you taught it what was wrong? It took a lot of reading and a lot of learning theory to get me to understand how it works (I'd suggest reading Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" btw, for a good background in how clicker training works), and then I saw how much better it was for my dogs. For me, that was the thing that convinced me: my Shibas could not be trained in "conventional" methods. So I would say, respectfully, that until you've actually worked with a good positive trainer and know more about it, then perhaps you're not really able to say definitively that it doesn't work. Because it does. And most of us at least started training dogs with "traditional" (ie. CM) methods, so it's not like we don't have a point of comparison. Also, I've learned A TON about dog behavior and learning theory on this forum, and I think if you're open minded, then you'll find a lot of exciting new stuff to learn about dog behavior too! You'll probably find the learning theory really interesting and it can become another part of your continuing education, right?
As with the others, the thing I revile CM the most for is what he does to fearful dogs. It's not just that I disagree with his methods, but in this case I believe what he does is abusive, and there are too, too many stories like the heartbreaking one Jessica told about fearful dogs being utterly destroyed by wrong handling. That's the beauty of positive training: you can't harm a dog even if you do it wrong. They may be confused. They may get fat from too many treats. But you won't ruin a dog...and those other methods can and do destroy some dogs, esp. fearful dogs. My female Shiba is so fearful of people she shuts down entirely around strangers even if they aren't interacting with her. CM's methods would utterly destroy her. But through clicker training, I've seen a very fearful dog (with a lot of issues) become a confident little girl, at least when she's feeling safe at home and training.
Finally, @Brad, yes, BAT is really really exciting. It wasn't until you posted that I thought about how it was a bridge, as you described it, between operant conditioning and classical conditioning. I'm really amazed at how well it works. We play the "look at that!" game (based in BAT) to work on Toby's reactiveness, and it's also very useful for fearful dogs. (For those of you who haven't done this, I tell the dogs "look at that" and they get a treat for looking at something then looking back to me, and we work up from innocuous things to more scary things that they may react to. The idea is that instead of reacting with growling or fearfulness in the presence of the trigger, they look to me for a treat, and begin to associate the scary thing with "oh, treat!" )
@shibamistress - Dani taught us the "look at that" concept for Lani, before her thyroid issue was diagnosed, and we had amazing results. I was really amazed by how effective a tool it was. Dani rocks.
brada1878-If you are in school to be a vet tech, you should check out the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT).
Yeah I've been on that website day one when I started school and went over animal behavior.
Regarding the facing fear, I wrote one that I recently had with Kiyo to tjbart17's response. just below. It's still a work in progress.
tjbart17-I know I'm not perfect. No one is. Kiyo had developed a fear of storm drains after one day I stepped on one and she flipped. And every time she saw something metal on the ground or the street, she would shut down. I couldn't do much when it first started because I started working again and got to busy. When the season ended and was able to walk her more, she was afraid to go on walks. So I decided to run her since she loves to run. So I got my bike out to ride so she could run as fast as she wanted but she wouldn't have it because she was a bit nervous. So I scratched out the bike and just ran( I haven't run for along time and not really fit to run but oh well). So she started running and after awhile notice she couldn't see the house, she froze. So I went to her and started to rub and scratch her and find the tense spot and massaged it. Then told her lets go and we started running again. Every time she stopped, I did the same thing and then we were off again. After the run was over I would take her inside so she gets water and to play fetch as a reward or she would lay down for a nap next to me were she gets lots of love. Now she walks fine once again, she can walk pretty close to the storm drain now too but still working on it so she doesn't need to fear it. She doesn't have to walk on it but she needs to be calm about being around it.
shibamistress-I've tried clicker training but my dogs were afraid of the noise, so I don't use it anymore. I do own Don't Shoot the Dog and just started reading it.
I agree with you about Jessica's story about that trainer being wrong. Jessica did the right thing. But I've seen Cesar do the same thing before doing anything. You need to build a trust with the dog first before you can do anything else.
I don't think you can compare Jessica sitting for three days in front of a kennel the same as CM's methods. He would never have the patience for that. What Jessica was doing was compassionate and loving. What CM would've done is drag that dog out of the kennel after ten minutes. Let's keep it real here.
The truth of the matter is that no trainer (maybe I should say no "good" trainer) will use only one method - ie positive reinforcement - they will use a variety depending on the situation. I can't remember where I read it but Brad has mentioned the LIMA school of thought, which means least invasive, minimally adversive and I think this is a really good approach to training. The problem most people have with Cesar Millan, besides the issues with flooding that have been discussed, is that a lot of people only emulate his positive punishment methods because they are the most "visible" and seem (from his show) to get the most "results".
The problem that I have is that it is incredibly important to show a dog what behavior is acceptable. It's all well and good to tell your dog "no" for chewing on something that they shouldn't (which, btw, is positive punishment) but you MUST show them what they CAN chew on or you're not being productive. They just think "when I chew on this I get yelled at". They are not learning anything.
Also, another thing I think is important to point out (and renae I am not trying to pick on you, please read with an open mind): VETS are not behaviorists. I trust my vet to know the ins and outs of the health and ailments of my animals. Behavior is simply not in the scope of their education. Likewise their knowledge on nutrition is often poor. When I go to a vet I am not looking to get behavioral advice, I am asking for insight on the health of my pet. If I need help with training I would ask a certified and trained behaviorist.
nekopan- your not picking. But there are vet that specialize in behavior. Like Dr. Ian Dunbar is a good example. And my vet instructor is amazing, even though he doesn't specialize in behavior, he reads almost anything and give suggestion with behavior as well. Some work, some don't but he's very helpful. I do agree though there are some that don't really understand behavior. Vet Techs/RVTs do have to learn about animal behavior if they go through a school program to pass. It might be the basic and foundation but we handle the animals and have to know when the animal is relax, nervous, or ready to bite, scratch, kick, or headbutt us. lol
While we're posting articles, there's also a study out of Penn Vet that backs up Jess and Brad's points (summary and article). The conclusion basically is that dogs trained with "confrontational" (authors' term) methods such as alpha rolls are much more likely to exhibit bad behaviors (biting people, for ex.) that dogs trained with "non-confrontational" methods.
To quote: “This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates,”Herron said. “These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression.”
Losech just posted this link on the Shiba side, and it seemed like a good article to add to this discussion too. It's older, as she noted (2006), but it's still really, really good. And beware--in addition to proving that Millan is awful to animals, it also proves he's a sexist ass.
@ Renae Thanks for for your courage to share what you believe in is right for your pets. It's obvious you care about your pets just as fervently as all the other forum members care about theirs.
First, after catching up on this thread, I really want to say (as some others have), thank you to Renae for speaking her mind! It's been a good conversation to catch up on.
But I'm really... still not a fan. There are multitudes of reasons why, but I think everyone else has touched upon those for me. In addition though...
I won't get into long stories, but I'm really upset from when he visited my work and picked out dogs for his Boston show. It was the most irritating thing to sit through and his answers to the owners were so vague and impersonal, it almost physically hurt me. The long-term effects in the dogs he trained on his live show makes me just as upset. The End.
I think CM chose the dogs he thought he could change drastically in a small amount of time (since it was a live show) and I think, in the end, that's his downfall. Positive reinforcement is "dull" and doesn't make for good TV and doesn't dramatically change a dog in the time period he's given. I feel like the audience needs an obvious, dramatic change and his methods certainly do that for them, I guess.
Is the link to the recent blog post about his training tour that was on the Shiba side here? I really liked that post and thought it was a good (mostly)objective review.
Hi. Back on reading this again, seeing the updates. I'm going to read the articles that were just add as soon as I finish some more homework. Anyway I appreciate you guys reading some of my point of view on it. Doesn't mean you don't have to like it, I have no problem with that. I find some of Cesar's techniques work well with my pit bull. He has done well on it but still I the works of improvement on his manner. It's a matter of getting everyone on board then anything. With my Shiba on the other hand some of them work, and some of them don't, so for the ones that don't I have to find another solution to solve the problem. It's a lot of trial and error, and Kiyo shows me or gives me hints what she needs and what works. It all depends on the dog, you just have to listen.
"It all depends on the dog, you just have to listen." - AMEN! That is EXACTLY the point. No training "program" works for every dog. Period. It doesn't matter if it's clickers, "balanced operant conditioning" (whatever that is), or Cesar's alpha/dominance stuff. Listen to what your dog is telling you and find what works best for him or her.
It is difficult but that how you learn and grow with your dog. Both you and your dog will be better off. ^-^
I really like the article that @nekopan posted. It was really interesting to hear someone opinion that actually went to one of his seminars and had no other knowledge about him from his show, books, magazine, ect. The author had good points.
I am first off going to say that I don't us CM methods on Koda or Mei. It would make Koda a blubbering mess and Mei would become an aggressive dog in my point of view. They would go two opposite ways. I don't even raise my voice to them. I feel like they do what I want because they trust me and have a strong relationship with me. When getting Koda, his breeder was adament that I never use CM methods, that Kais are just too sensitive, and I tend to agree with that statement.
With that said, I may shock some people with the following story.
There is a man that I met with a rather large Pit Bull. It makes me think he's mixed with something like Mastiff. He is a rescue. This dog is THE MOST WELL BEHAVED SOCIALLY MANNERED dog I have ever met!! I love it when Koda plays with him because I don't have to really watch and pay attention. I adore this dog. But his owner only uses CM methods and is very strict. At first it made my stomach turn, but now that I've known him, and his dog, for two years I can honestly say the dog has no ill effects from the methods. I can see @renae that if it works, it works.
Unfortunately, I think this dog is in the top 2% of dogs who really could be ok with it. Koda even gets flipped out when his owner alpha rolls him. Koda's barked at the guy pretty good. He always has to stick up for dogs when he thinks the owner is being an ass.
With that said, I've also seen wher these methods have produced quick results but the long-term effects have been overwhelming stress and anxiety on the dog. I wouldn't recommend these methods to the leigh (?sp) person.
Oh and great articles! It took me a couple of days to catch up and read them all.
My issue with CM is not that the methods don't work for some dogs, and maybe even many dogs, if the handler doesn't care that some dogs may become more fearful using this method (or more aggressive). People have been using methods like his for, well, a very very long time. I learned how to train in this way. (Not CM's way particularly, but old fashioned leash jerk, alpha roll, training). I get the whole "find the method that works for you dog" thing. I really do. However, I can't see any reason that people would NEED to use these training methods. Sure, I've seen some really well trained dogs from this method too, but it still makes me sad (like my friend, whose roommate is a dog walker, and who has really well behaved rottie. Who NEVER does not have a pinch collar on. And who is a sweet, sensitive girl, who I have not doubt would learn just as well, and much more joyfully, with positive training. Has he harmed her? I don't know. Doesn't seem like it, but is it necessary? I'd say no.)
My issues with CM are that
1) regardless of his claims to be a dog "psychologist" he clearly doesn't understand or care about the fact that some dogs will become worse using these methods (maybe he does understand and doesn't care. That's even worse)
2) that there are other, less harmful ways to train dogs (and yes, I would say psychologically harmful for dogs--dogs who are scared aren't willing participants in their training
3) that I have seen him on video physically hurt dogs, and I find ear pinches, kicks, choking, etc. absolutely unacceptable and unnecessary (and if he'll do that on video, what is he doing OFF video????)
4) his methods are neither new nor innovative nor creative
5) personally, he's a total ass, and now that I know a very sexist one too, I'm totally against supporting him and his business in any way.
Do I have anything good to say about him? Well, he's good looking. Too bad the pretty outside didn't match a nicer inside.
Im at a get together with a lot of other dogs around. This girl comes over and decides that Toki is playing too rough, ya know, cause he is only a four and half month old puppy, she pins him down and says "this is a calm submission, what CM does"... I about nearly came unglued. The only reason I didn't was cause Toki thoght she as just playing with him and then he ran around and played just the same with the other dogs. I felt like Toki and I had the last laugh. Proof that CM methods do not work.
Comments
Like you said "You take what feels right and works for you and your dog", I agree with that and I feel that is something we should all remember. Each person's philosophy is different (just as there are different religions and political views), and even when we don't agree on something it is still nice to hear the other side. It helps reinforce my own beliefs, as well as know that you can have an intelligent conversation with someone who sees differently than you.
@brada1878 yeah I think that's the link, I know you have explain it a million times on this forum
I really only want to comment on two things, as I think it's important that we (as dog owners) do not continue to support these incorrect concepts (misunderstandings)...
You wrote: "To me, I don't like my dogs begging at my feet so I taught them to sit a couple of feet away from me when I'm eating but I don't mind them jumping on me. Its all preference to the owner. But Cesar isn't there train the dogs but to help change the unwanted behavior to a favorable behavior."
>> I'm with you, I HATE dogs begging or being under my feet.
What I wanted to point out tho, is that changing (unwanted) behavior is training. Dog training is teaching a dog behaviors you like to see while teaching them not to do behaviors you don't like. That is exactly what CM does - he trains dogs.
I know he calls himself a "dog psychologist" (I've watched his shows and read his books too), but he really has no formal training in dog behavior or dog training. He only calls himself a "dog psychologist", which is a made up term, because he would be falsely representing himself if he called himself a Dog Behaviorist (as he has no formal education or degree in that field). CM is essentially a glorified (and self-taught) Koehler-method dog trainer (which is to say his methods are largely based on training dogs using punishment).
You wrote: "From my experience your method only encourages the bad behavior, being fearful. Nothing is instant and the panting and drooling is all the fight the dog put up to do its normal behavior and that's not healthy to be in that state of mind. I can tell you people do what Cesar does to get over fear, but dogs don't understand what's going on only knowing to fear the skateboard (continuing your example). So they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler that its not there to hurt them and they can be relax around it."
>> This is really a dangerous misunderstanding that's very common in the dog world. The truth is, and it's been scientifically proven, you cannot reinforce an emotion. You can only reinforce a behavior. Treating a dog while they are being fearful does NOT reinforce their emotional state.
In the behavioral and training community, the behaviors you describe above (where you write "...they have to face it till finally they don't have the energy to fear it anymore and to learn from the handler...") is called learned helplessness. When a dog is shut down like that (aka "learned helplessness") they are actually not learning anything. This is another thing that's been proven via science.
Dogs only learn (new) behaviors when they are not in a fearful or defensive state, the quickest way to get a dog out of a fearful state is to feed them as the mechanics of dog's brain works in a way where they cannot be fearful and eat at the same time (and they cannot learn when they are fearful).
By feeding a fearful dog you actually condition them to the fearful item by pairing it with positive stimuli (food). This is called Classical Conditioning, once the dog is taking food and no longer fearful (even tho the fearful item is still present), you can then start to teach them new behaviors (reinforce behaviors) and use the treats to reward them for those behaviors (which is reinforcement).
I, and many others, honestly feel that the scenario you described above is the single most dangerous concept CM has popularized, many many dogs are now being tortured by their owners who are forcing them to "confront their fears" because CM says that's the way you get them over it... but he couldn't be further from the truth in that aspect. It really is very dangerous to do this type of thing to a dog - you can create a fear biter (I'm speaking from experience here).
----
@renae - If you are in school to be a vet tech, you should check out the Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians (SVBT). This is their official position statement on CM: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Media/Press_Releases/svbt letter to merial.doc
----
I, and many others, honestly feel that the scenario you described above is the single most dangerous concept CM has popularized, many many dogs are now being tortured by their owners who are forcing them to "confront their fears" because CM says that's the way you get them over it... but he couldn't be further from the truth in that aspect. It really is very dangerous to do this type of thing to a dog - you can create a fear biter (I'm speaking from experience here).
I have been reading all the posts carefully, and I think that I'm finally ready to really chime in. I wanted to wait to get a better understanding of what exactly Renae was talking about when saying that she uses CM Methods because I don't think that all of them are used. I'm hoping that not all of them are used, especially the ones that I find physical assault methods.
I will chime in and try and back Brad up on his statement. Recently, as most of you know, Koda and I were hit by a car. Koda had been socialized and conditioned to be fine around cars, bicycles, skateboards, rollerblades, etc. I worked very diligently with him since he first came home at 9 weeks old to get him used to and ok with these items. One hit of a car, and all that conditioning went out the door. He would freak anytime a bicycle went by. My neighbor kids on their skateboards sent him into shaking turmoil. It was bad all around, and he lacked an ability to overcome his fear in a timely manner.
Many owners would become extremely frusterated with his new hysterical responses seeing them as irrational. I admit it frusterated me, but mostly made me sad for him.
I tried to get his attention and treat him when bikes would go by and he still flipped and wouldn't take food. This was my big red stop sign in front of my face. I can't force him not to be scared, so I took him away from the negative stimulus for a couple of weeks until he became a bit more emotionally stable. It took work. We had to drive out to hills to walk, stayed home when it was raining, and found dirt fire roads that no one drives on, but slowly he became more comfortable with being out.
So, we tried it again. We went to a semi-quiet area of the park and waited for a bicyclist. One came by, and I got his focus using treats. He flipped a bit, and I turned him away from the bike walking the other direction. We did it again. Bicycle came, I got his focus, he ignored the bicyclist I treated him.
It took a month to get Koda back. But the month and patience was well worth it. I have a dog who is finding his confidence and security back in the world of cars.
Had I used CM's methods and forced him to face his fears until he finally gave up, I'd be breaking his spirit. Sorry, but I couldn't live with myself if I f*cked up my dog that bad.
Trust me, I'm far from perfect. I have made mistakes with my dogs, and I don't want to act like I know everything. I truly don't, but for me, and what I feel is best for my dogs, is a bit more patience than most people have. It takes time to train a dog. From what I see of people using CM's methods is that they want that instantaneous gratification of speed training that emotionally breaks your dog.
It seems to me from reading your posts that you don't have a lot of experience with positive training/reinforcement and good positive trainers. And here I don't mean just praising your dog for something, but I mean doing real training whether it is clicker training or lure and reward. It seems to me that until you (general you here, meaning anyone) have a good working knowledge and experience with positive training, then it's hard to really know if it will work or not. When I first heard about it, years ago when I still did "traditional" training (ie.aversive training with leash pops, punishment, etc), I thought the ideas behind positive training were ridiculous. I thought, how would you ever train a dog unless you taught it what was wrong? It took a lot of reading and a lot of learning theory to get me to understand how it works (I'd suggest reading Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" btw, for a good background in how clicker training works), and then I saw how much better it was for my dogs. For me, that was the thing that convinced me: my Shibas could not be trained in "conventional" methods. So I would say, respectfully, that until you've actually worked with a good positive trainer and know more about it, then perhaps you're not really able to say definitively that it doesn't work. Because it does. And most of us at least started training dogs with "traditional" (ie. CM) methods, so it's not like we don't have a point of comparison. Also, I've learned A TON about dog behavior and learning theory on this forum, and I think if you're open minded, then you'll find a lot of exciting new stuff to learn about dog behavior too! You'll probably find the learning theory really interesting and it can become another part of your continuing education, right?
As with the others, the thing I revile CM the most for is what he does to fearful dogs. It's not just that I disagree with his methods, but in this case I believe what he does is abusive, and there are too, too many stories like the heartbreaking one Jessica told about fearful dogs being utterly destroyed by wrong handling. That's the beauty of positive training: you can't harm a dog even if you do it wrong. They may be confused. They may get fat from too many treats. But you won't ruin a dog...and those other methods can and do destroy some dogs, esp. fearful dogs. My female Shiba is so fearful of people she shuts down entirely around strangers even if they aren't interacting with her. CM's methods would utterly destroy her. But through clicker training, I've seen a very fearful dog (with a lot of issues) become a confident little girl, at least when she's feeling safe at home and training.
Finally, @Brad, yes, BAT is really really exciting. It wasn't until you posted that I thought about how it was a bridge, as you described it, between operant conditioning and classical conditioning. I'm really amazed at how well it works. We play the "look at that!" game (based in BAT) to work on Toby's reactiveness, and it's also very useful for fearful dogs. (For those of you who haven't done this, I tell the dogs "look at that" and they get a treat for looking at something then looking back to me, and we work up from innocuous things to more scary things that they may react to. The idea is that instead of reacting with growling or fearfulness in the presence of the trigger, they look to me for a treat, and begin to associate the scary thing with "oh, treat!" )
Yeah I've been on that website day one when I started school and went over animal behavior.
Regarding the facing fear, I wrote one that I recently had with Kiyo to tjbart17's response. just below. It's still a work in progress.
tjbart17-I know I'm not perfect. No one is. Kiyo had developed a fear of storm drains after one day I stepped on one and she flipped. And every time she saw something metal on the ground or the street, she would shut down. I couldn't do much when it first started because I started working again and got to busy. When the season ended and was able to walk her more, she was afraid to go on walks. So I decided to run her since she loves to run. So I got my bike out to ride so she could run as fast as she wanted but she wouldn't have it because she was a bit nervous. So I scratched out the bike and just ran( I haven't run for along time and not really fit to run but oh well). So she started running and after awhile notice she couldn't see the house, she froze. So I went to her and started to rub and scratch her and find the tense spot and massaged it. Then told her lets go and we started running again. Every time she stopped, I did the same thing and then we were off again. After the run was over I would take her inside so she gets water and to play fetch as a reward or she would lay down for a nap next to me were she gets lots of love. Now she walks fine once again, she can walk pretty close to the storm drain now too but still working on it so she doesn't need to fear it. She doesn't have to walk on it but she needs to be calm about being around it.
shibamistress-I've tried clicker training but my dogs were afraid of the noise, so I don't use it anymore. I do own Don't Shoot the Dog and just started reading it.
I agree with you about Jessica's story about that trainer being wrong. Jessica did the right thing. But I've seen Cesar do the same thing before doing anything. You need to build a trust with the dog first before you can do anything else.
The problem that I have is that it is incredibly important to show a dog what behavior is acceptable. It's all well and good to tell your dog "no" for chewing on something that they shouldn't (which, btw, is positive punishment) but you MUST show them what they CAN chew on or you're not being productive. They just think "when I chew on this I get yelled at". They are not learning anything.
Also, another thing I think is important to point out (and renae I am not trying to pick on you, please read with an open mind): VETS are not behaviorists. I trust my vet to know the ins and outs of the health and ailments of my animals. Behavior is simply not in the scope of their education. Likewise their knowledge on nutrition is often poor. When I go to a vet I am not looking to get behavioral advice, I am asking for insight on the health of my pet. If I need help with training I would ask a certified and trained behaviorist.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201012/reward-training-versus-discipline-based-dog-training-which-works-better
http://www.4pawsu.com/traditionaltraining.htm
To quote: “This study highlights the risk of dominance-based training, which has been made popular by TV, books and punishment-based training advocates,”Herron said. “These techniques are fear-eliciting and may lead to owner-directed aggression.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?pagewanted=all
LMAO! ~
@ Renae Thanks for for your courage to share what you believe in is right for your pets. It's obvious you care about your pets just as fervently as all the other forum members care about theirs.
But I'm really... still not a fan. There are multitudes of reasons why, but I think everyone else has touched upon those for me. In addition though...
I won't get into long stories, but I'm really upset from when he visited my work and picked out dogs for his Boston show. It was the most irritating thing to sit through and his answers to the owners were so vague and impersonal, it almost physically hurt me. The long-term effects in the dogs he trained on his live show makes me just as upset. The End.
I think CM chose the dogs he thought he could change drastically in a small amount of time (since it was a live show) and I think, in the end, that's his downfall. Positive reinforcement is "dull" and doesn't make for good TV and doesn't dramatically change a dog in the time period he's given. I feel like the audience needs an obvious, dramatic change and his methods certainly do that for them, I guess.
- AMEN! That is EXACTLY the point. No training "program" works for every dog. Period. It doesn't matter if it's clickers, "balanced operant conditioning" (whatever that is), or Cesar's alpha/dominance stuff. Listen to what your dog is telling you and find what works best for him or her.
It is difficult but that how you learn and grow with your dog. Both you and your dog will be better off. ^-^
I really like the article that @nekopan posted. It was really interesting to hear someone opinion that actually went to one of his seminars and had no other knowledge about him from his show, books, magazine, ect. The author had good points.
With that said, I may shock some people with the following story.
There is a man that I met with a rather large Pit Bull. It makes me think he's mixed with something like Mastiff. He is a rescue. This dog is THE MOST WELL BEHAVED SOCIALLY MANNERED dog I have ever met!! I love it when Koda plays with him because I don't have to really watch and pay attention. I adore this dog. But his owner only uses CM methods and is very strict. At first it made my stomach turn, but now that I've known him, and his dog, for two years I can honestly say the dog has no ill effects from the methods. I can see @renae that if it works, it works.
Unfortunately, I think this dog is in the top 2% of dogs who really could be ok with it. Koda even gets flipped out when his owner alpha rolls him. Koda's barked at the guy pretty good. He always has to stick up for dogs when he thinks the owner is being an ass.
With that said, I've also seen wher these methods have produced quick results but the long-term effects have been overwhelming stress and anxiety on the dog. I wouldn't recommend these methods to the leigh (?sp) person.
Oh and great articles! It took me a couple of days to catch up and read them all.
My issues with CM are that
1) regardless of his claims to be a dog "psychologist" he clearly doesn't understand or care about the fact that some dogs will become worse using these methods (maybe he does understand and doesn't care. That's even worse)
2) that there are other, less harmful ways to train dogs (and yes, I would say psychologically harmful for dogs--dogs who are scared aren't willing participants in their training
3) that I have seen him on video physically hurt dogs, and I find ear pinches, kicks, choking, etc. absolutely unacceptable and unnecessary (and if he'll do that on video, what is he doing OFF video????)
4) his methods are neither new nor innovative nor creative
5) personally, he's a total ass, and now that I know a very sexist one too, I'm totally against supporting him and his business in any way.
Do I have anything good to say about him? Well, he's good looking. Too bad the pretty outside didn't match a nicer inside.
Im at a get together with a lot of other dogs around. This girl comes over and decides that Toki is playing too rough, ya know, cause he is only a four and half month old puppy, she pins him down and says "this is a calm submission, what CM does"... I about nearly came unglued. The only reason I didn't was cause Toki thoght she as just playing with him and then he ran around and played just the same with the other dogs. I felt like Toki and I had the last laugh. Proof that CM methods do not work.