Have been there in the past and now embrace a more cooperative relationship building as well....
Amens aside, dogs are not given the opportunity to have a say in how they are treated or what they prefer. What seems gratifying for humans often is diametrically opposed to that which connects with the dog or is most effective in training in the long run. Trainers and owners are forced to mostly rely on body language and the down side of this is it often dips into a subjective realm unless there is some construct of canine behaviorism from a decent trainer.... Science merging with methodology.
probably preaching to the choir.....but here it goes anyway even if somewhat repetitive from posts of the past.
Honestly the biggest problem I see is that CM does not adjust his methods, most often taking the most extreme tactic for many problems across the board. It is so much easier for him to keep a trademark style even if it isn't best for the particular dog. I have not seen him off camera (not interested in paying high prices for a glimpse) so I am speaking based on the media and video. (Need I mention about the whole nonsense "shushing" for his personal shtick...this is actually a quirky Spanish cultural gesture that many moms or grandmas do with babies. Is it effective with kids?....from what I have seen, not so much..... So for dogs I find it equally baffling that so many have picked up on it for training.)
In any case as we deal with Nihons here, before holding guru methods in highest esteem....I will point out that CM has failed at training using the "Cesars way" method for the majority of the spitz dogs, i.e. Sammie, Jindo and the Shiba aired over the seasons on NGO program. The dogs supposedly "rehabilitated" in each of those segments were given up or put to sleep after the cameras were long gone. Unfortunately for these dogs there isn't a second chance after seriously traumatizing the dogs in the process.
The CM method on canine "psychology" is a a mute point in my mind as his explanations and reasoning are poorly conveyed and lacks sound backing. Placing an action on a reaction more often than not, is a "not", in terms of solutions. As a trainer it is all too easy to convince many dog owners to take a certain directional approach even when there isn't a good foundation of information on technique provided. Owners must think very carefully about how they train and what they want to accomplish looking at the implementation of methods. A super trainer is what makes the process most fruitful in using multiple methods that are in line with the specific case and dog at hand in conjunction with behaviorism. In the end it boils down to, do you want a mentally stable dog after the process or do you want more psychosis. Dogs are keenly aware of rough handling. If you want the best bond and the biggest bang for your buck, use the least aversive methods whenever possible. It isn't a quick simple process as there are a lot of factors that contribute to "stability" in the human dog relationship.
CM should be a wake up call for us all on how we train and begin thinking about how we want to channel the "energy" in our dogs vs. the specific efforts we choose to put forth. It is way too simple to become crutched on cliches, fancy short media footage, and plain bad advice for specific situations.
Having said it before, our first obligation as owners and trainers is to do no harm, always remaining vigilant and being prepared to protect your dog even from those who seemly are qualified to train. Scruffing, rolling, kicking even in the smallest measure are just ways to vent human frustration. In regard to harsh corrections dogs often respond to what it interprets as aggression with aggression. Unfortunately it is the dog that suffers when we mess up. With first dogs and new to training owners, we mess up badly not knowing the limitations. A good trainer buffers that with sound science, on going information and appropriate techniques as the relationship and skills evolve.
There's a episode with a Shiba playing right now. The complaint from the owners is this:
1) pulls too hard when out on walks 2) has a mind of its own 3) doesn't come back when the Shiba runs away. 4) the Shiba likes to get on top of the couch
Really! That's what the nk is all about! Get freak'n lab next time. The owners comments are "she's like a cat and comes when she feels like it" millan- "Jew have to cho who da bos is".
Augh, and that's why I tell the "It's so cute! Looks like a fox! I want one!" People all the BAD stuff about Shibas, and only that. Not for their sake but for the poor dog. I mean, seriously people. Do a bit of research about the dog before you get one and don't buy because it's "cute" or "looks cool" or whatever.
And trying to CM a Shiba, I can see that backfiring, like it has with all those "rehabilitated" Spitz-types in the past.
1) pulls too hard when out on walks 2) has a mind of its own 3) doesn't come back when the Shiba runs away. 4) the Shiba likes to get on top of the couch
I remember that episode I'm like jeez the dog is a shiba what you expect? Saya loves being on back of the couch or walking on it too.
Doesn't come back Cesar resolution was to put a gps collar thing on the dog so when the dog ran off they could find her?
I don't remember it all been while since I seen it.
I hate it when people get a breed and know nothing of them or are not right fit for the breed.. Reason I love NK is their personality, temperament, and how their minds work..
Ha....I forgot about that episode! That is one of the better ones, they actually kept their Shiba and seemed to actually enjoy their dog. So typical.....All of mine like king of the hill by standing at the highest point, even if that means sleeping on top of a crate rather than in it. LOL
I wonder if that's the one where he says "is this allowed?" as the Shiba is jumping on the sofa? It's become a running joke with me and best friend--we say "Is this allowed?" every time one of the Shibas is doing something...Shiba like!
I remember that episode and the whole time i thought "did you people even bother to learn about the breed?"
@shibamistress yes it's the "is this allowed?" episode as the shiba jumps on the sofa... I think even the owners were ok with there shiba doing this?? cant' remember was a long time ago that i saw this episode....
There's something I'd like to see. Do you guys have any citations of dogs who end up getting worse/unmanageable after the show? I can't find any sources.
Jonbee. Wasn't he supposed to be rehomed in the first place? If you watch the episode from the beginning, you'll see that the owner had started this home-based personal rescue, where they found strays around the neighborhood, rehabilitated them, and then rehomed them. Jonbee was one of those; they didn't intend to keep him in the first place.
But I am interested in the post that says they disclosed aggression issues later. Is there anyway I can find the post that those owners wrote? Google's not helping me here, haha.
I think I understand what you're saying now. So basically the thing was that Scott Lincoln was lying when he said he rescued lots of dogs before Jonbee?
And I was only politely asking what your background is. Please be patient with me, I'm just asking questions and want to learn more, I'm not assuming things one way or the other.
I haven't read this entire thread yet, but Milan is not taken all that seriously by some. He's at least bringing some kind of imposed way on a the Joe Cue dog owner.
I deleted my recent posts because it was a distraction. Who cares about my creds compare to the experts and behaviorists listed by Brad?
Also, I don't have any interest in making the former owner into a villain and regretted saying anything that would lead to that. The guy has my sympathy for surviving cancer. Trying to rescue one or many dogs was his way of coping.
Basically I like Ceasar. Don't all jump on me. If people who watch him don't get it right whose fault is that? I don't have his channel but I've seen lots of them and have never seen anything abusive. That said, there just is no replacing common sense and that is damn hard to teach. And you can never accept anything whole cloth. And every animal is different. I also think it's not too good an idea to compare dogs to children. These are animals that hunt. Yes, many things work like training teenagers...oh, hell, like training husbands! Also, I'm suspicious of academic book training. I think %95 positive training works great and an occasional punishment for a bad act if it is happening at the moment makes sense to me. I had to do that once in 16 yrs to my beloved rocky when he decided it was a good idea to bite my husband trying to get into "his" bed. We both came down on him like a ton of bricks. ( My husband didn't extend the same curtesy to me with another dog...he chuckled) rocky never did that again. And there was no hitting or cruelty. I adored Rocky and I know he loved and did not fear me. After that all I had to do is give him a low growl. They understand that sound. ( I believe in dog speak when ever possible) I despise negative punishment...hate doing it. But like humans they are smart enough to figure out they can do whatever they want they probably will. They are living in houses...not natural for animals. They have to learn things not natural to them. That said, there are things I just have not figured out what to do about it. It's not easy and doesn't always work like what you see someone else do including Ceasar.
Well, Millan's abusive methods have been documented...certain episodes show abusive methods like hanging, etc. I have seen those episodes myself. (They may have even been linked in this thread, but usually the links are disabled rather quickly, though these are just links to episodes that aired on TV.) Go back through this thread and others linked for more information. Even the American Vet association has spoken against him. And the trainers who have also spoken out against his methods are not "academic book training" but are working actively with dogs and have been for years.
If his methods are so dangerous that people can't emulate them at home without harming their dogs, then what good are they? The argument that people "don't get it right" doesn't really make sense, and also, my argument is not so much with the people who follow them (though I don't like that either) but rather the fact that his methods are harmful to many dogs, are based on faulty science, and are very outdated. They are particularly bad with nihon ken, who are independent dogs, yet also often quite sensitive.
But I think I've said all I need to say about this in this thread again and again. But there is evidence from his own shows of him being abusive to dogs, so that is not something anyone has made up.
Oh, man, it had the husky one on it. That episode continues and is worse...after hanging the dog, the husky falls on the ground and collapses, and pees on itself. They actually show the dog's eyes rolled back in it's head. It was heartbreaking, and that was the one I was thinking about as being particularly egregious.
I'd never seen the bulldog one....WTF!!! A bulldog has enough problems breathing--hanging a bulldog could kill it! As much as I blame Millan, I also have to say who would let someone hang their dog like that? Or kick them? (Some of the looks of surprise on the dogs are really sad).
There was a heartbreaking one about an Akita once, too, who he said was being "dominant" because he refused to get in the back of the truck for a ride. The Akita was clearly terrified--tail down, head dropped, panting, and trying to get away from this total stranger who was trying to drag him out of his dog house into the truck.
Ugh.
Anyway, thanks PoeticDragon for finding this to link, as awful as it was to watch.
I have the full episode of the wolfdog/husky episode. I will send it to you privately if you'd like. The CM law team does a great job of keeping that episode off the internet since it's so damaging to CM's marketability.
Comments
Have been there in the past and now embrace a more cooperative relationship building as well....
Amens aside, dogs are not given the opportunity to have a say in how they are treated or what they prefer. What seems gratifying for humans often is diametrically opposed to that which connects with the dog or is most effective in training in the long run. Trainers and owners are forced to mostly rely on body language and the down side of this is it often dips into a subjective realm unless there is some construct of canine behaviorism from a decent trainer.... Science merging with methodology.
probably preaching to the choir.....but here it goes anyway even if somewhat repetitive from posts of the past.
Honestly the biggest problem I see is that CM does not adjust his methods, most often taking the most extreme tactic for many problems across the board. It is so much easier for him to keep a trademark style even if it isn't best for the particular dog. I have not seen him off camera (not interested in paying high prices for a glimpse) so I am speaking based on the media and video. (Need I mention about the whole nonsense "shushing" for his personal shtick...this is actually a quirky Spanish cultural gesture that many moms or grandmas do with babies. Is it effective with kids?....from what I have seen, not so much..... So for dogs I find it equally baffling that so many have picked up on it for training.)
In any case as we deal with Nihons here, before holding guru methods in highest esteem....I will point out that CM has failed at training using the "Cesars way" method for the majority of the spitz dogs, i.e. Sammie, Jindo and the Shiba aired over the seasons on NGO program. The dogs supposedly "rehabilitated" in each of those segments were given up or put to sleep after the cameras were long gone. Unfortunately for these dogs there isn't a second chance after seriously traumatizing the dogs in the process.
The CM method on canine "psychology" is a a mute point in my mind as his explanations and reasoning are poorly conveyed and lacks sound backing. Placing an action on a reaction more often than not, is a "not", in terms of solutions. As a trainer it is all too easy to convince many dog owners to take a certain directional approach even when there isn't a good foundation of information on technique provided. Owners must think very carefully about how they train and what they want to accomplish looking at the implementation of methods. A super trainer is what makes the process most fruitful in using multiple methods that are in line with the specific case and dog at hand in conjunction with behaviorism. In the end it boils down to, do you want a mentally stable dog after the process or do you want more psychosis. Dogs are keenly aware of rough handling. If you want the best bond and the biggest bang for your buck, use the least aversive methods whenever possible. It isn't a quick simple process as there are a lot of factors that contribute to "stability" in the human dog relationship.
CM should be a wake up call for us all on how we train and begin thinking about how we want to channel the "energy" in our dogs vs. the specific efforts we choose to put forth. It is way too simple to become crutched on cliches, fancy short media footage, and plain bad advice for specific situations.
Having said it before, our first obligation as owners and trainers is to do no harm, always remaining vigilant and being prepared to protect your dog even from those who seemly are qualified to train. Scruffing, rolling, kicking even in the smallest measure are just ways to vent human frustration. In regard to harsh corrections dogs often respond to what it interprets as aggression with aggression. Unfortunately it is the dog that suffers when we mess up. With first dogs and new to training owners, we mess up badly not knowing the limitations. A good trainer buffers that with sound science, on going information and appropriate techniques as the relationship and skills evolve.
Snf
1) pulls too hard when out on walks
2) has a mind of its own
3) doesn't come back when the Shiba runs away.
4) the Shiba likes to get on top of the couch
Really! That's what the nk is all about! Get freak'n lab next time. The owners comments are "she's like a cat and comes when she feels like it" millan- "Jew have to cho who da bos is".
Sorry I had to throw that in there...
And trying to CM a Shiba, I can see that backfiring, like it has with all those "rehabilitated" Spitz-types in the past.
2) has a mind of its own
3) doesn't come back when the Shiba runs away.
4) the Shiba likes to get on top of the couch
I remember that episode I'm like jeez the dog is a shiba what you expect? Saya loves being on back of the couch or walking on it too.
Doesn't come back Cesar resolution was to put a gps collar thing on the dog so when the dog ran off they could find her?
I don't remember it all been while since I seen it.
I hate it when people get a breed and know nothing of them or are not right fit for the breed.. Reason I love NK is their personality, temperament, and how their minds work..
Snf
@shibamistress yes it's the "is this allowed?" episode as the shiba jumps on the sofa... I think even the owners were ok with there shiba doing this?? cant' remember was a long time ago that i saw this episode....
But I am interested in the post that says they disclosed aggression issues later. Is there anyway I can find the post that those owners wrote? Google's not helping me here, haha.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogWhispererFans/message/81277
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogWhispererFans/message/81342
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/DogWhispererFans/message/83459
.
And you saw Jonbee? What profession do you have, may I ask? That's pretty neat.
And I was only politely asking what your background is. Please be patient with me, I'm just asking questions and want to learn more, I'm not assuming things one way or the other.
He's at least bringing some kind of imposed way on a the Joe Cue dog owner.
Also, I don't have any interest in making the former owner into a villain and regretted saying anything that would lead to that. The guy has my sympathy for surviving cancer. Trying to rescue one or many dogs was his way of coping.
If his methods are so dangerous that people can't emulate them at home without harming their dogs, then what good are they? The argument that people "don't get it right" doesn't really make sense, and also, my argument is not so much with the people who follow them (though I don't like that either) but rather the fact that his methods are harmful to many dogs, are based on faulty science, and are very outdated. They are particularly bad with nihon ken, who are independent dogs, yet also often quite sensitive.
But I think I've said all I need to say about this in this thread again and again. But there is evidence from his own shows of him being abusive to dogs, so that is not something anyone has made up.
I'd never seen the bulldog one....WTF!!! A bulldog has enough problems breathing--hanging a bulldog could kill it! As much as I blame Millan, I also have to say who would let someone hang their dog like that? Or kick them? (Some of the looks of surprise on the dogs are really sad).
There was a heartbreaking one about an Akita once, too, who he said was being "dominant" because he refused to get in the back of the truck for a ride. The Akita was clearly terrified--tail down, head dropped, panting, and trying to get away from this total stranger who was trying to drag him out of his dog house into the truck.
Ugh.
Anyway, thanks PoeticDragon for finding this to link, as awful as it was to watch.