Okay Tini,
Well only one of ours is pulling all the time, even today Reno is still kind of not very comfortable, Rico is much better unless he encounters a cat or other small animal. I would be glad to have a shikoku not trying to pull my arm out all the time. But than, you have three huskies, can you walk all those by your self at the same time?
lol...I have a funny story with Shoushuu and water:
We were at a 500+ acre off leash dog park. He took off running around and thoroughly enjoying himself. Then he saw a small lake filled with water and without thinking just jumped in and ran to the center. Then he suddenly realized his surroundings and stood there as if he was frozen. I was like, "I'm not helping you out on this one buddy!" He eventually "came to" and slowly...with caution...walked back to put himself up on land. He didn't seem to enjoy any of it. However, I was highly amused -grins-.
Goofy dogs sometimes, I swear. However, highly entertaining.
My Shikoku are okay with water though. Sometimes they have to "warm up" and "ease" into it, depends on the kind of water in question (lake, ocean, bathtub, pool, hose, puddle, etc). Other times not so much, I guess it just depends on their energy level/mood on that particular day as well. In the bathtub, they will tolerate a shampoo & rinse. Outside using the hose, not so much. Well Shoushuu is pretty good on just standing there. Kotomi HATES the hose! Shoushuu has also had more exposure to water then Kotomi has, so that might be "the kicker" there.
When it rains, they don't really like being outside. Shoushuu will stand there all wet and soaked, even though he has shelter from it, waiting for me to open the door and bring him inside. That last time I left them out and it had started pooring...I caught Kotomi standing on top of a wheel barrel type thing in an attempt to stay dry. I guess the rain had gotten into the dog house or the ground flooded or something (I don't remember!)??? It was pretty funny though - quite a sight to see - smart dog!
-----------------------------------
The heat is usually never a good thing. More so the humidity...cooler weather would be best...but they can tolerate it to some degree. Kotomi doesn't seem to mind as much but Shoushuu hates it. So long as it's not too hot and they are about moving around...should be fine. However, if they are left in the yard during the heat...even with proper shelter...they aren't too happy about it. At least where I'm living at the moment, it's much cooler inside and they much prefer to be inside. They get "lazy" with the heat...but I suppose this is too be expected.
No I never walk all 3 huskies the same time )) I could not hold them. I always walk 1 - 2 together. Sometimes we go to doggie park with the whole pack (3 huskies and Kekko) and even getting from the car to the yard is hard work. We do not have extreme heat in Estonia, but on hot days Kekko is much more active than huskies - huskies just sleep in the shadowed corner of the house, but Kekko sometimes walks around and the heat does not seem to bother him at all. With rain he is usually in the doggie house. Will see about the winter....how he will tolerate the cold.
Hello Corina en Stina, it's so nice to read about all the different caracters, they are like humans :-)
Mine don't seems to hate the heat, Rico even goes out and sleeps in the burning sun. but high humidity slows them down seriously, In the car, during summer, we keep them in the airconditioned area. Rain doesn't bother them. When still puppies, Reno felt in the canal and there was no way to get out. However, I didn't know. Just saw Rico coming back alone. That was a first. Normally Reno is in lead, Rico just follows. So since they were playing along the canal, during cold but not freezing cold winter, Reno must have felt into the water. I was really scared since he was only 7 months or so and would never have the strength to climb out the straight wall of the canal. We searched for a long time, than finally, very far away on the other side of the water I saw a very small, dark, wet and shaking dot running towards me, while shouting his name. Somehow he managed to get out, still no clue how. Maybe someone pulled him out of the water. The wood on the side of the canal is between one and two feet high. But he was there and alive. We ran back home and it took a long time before he was dry and stopped shivering from the cold water. I was happy but a bit in shock. What if… luckely enough, he never developed a fear for water, check the pics, he still loves it.
Rico is like Kotomi, hates hoses and bathtubs in general. Swimming is okay, just not to deep.
Tini, I can imagen you cannot take 3 or 4 for a walk. R&R were staying over with my brothers wife, she is tough, police officer but kind of lite weight. The two saw a rabbit and decided to go after it at the same moment without giving notice. She holded the lines but was draged on her stomach through the ditch, filled with water, underneath the pivot wire and got to stop them a couple of meters into the pasture. Wow… to bad I missed that scenery :-) Until today I respect her for not letting go…
Tomorrow will be our first meeting with a shikoku at the Holland Koi Show. There the Dutch breeders showing their dogs, since lot's of Japanese hobbies are presented. I was involved in organizing this show, and it is cool to meet them there. We are really curious about them. Hope to shoot some nice pics, if yes we will show them here.
I trained my Shiba to be off-leash. I tried a couple different of methods (all of which I made up)... but I was most successful taking him on trail runs where there was a defined trail and switching between a lead and off-leash every 5 minutes or so. If he approached the edge of my control radius then I would call him back and put the lead on for a couple. I also finally learned that if he did run away, I would just run in the opposite direction for a bit. He'd show up quickly when I did that!
I would usually do this just before a meal, so that the treats were more "enticing" as he hadn't eaten yet. I would also sometimes walk for 20 minutes on leash if he seemed to have a lot of energy, so that he could calm down a bit. Regularity of being off leash I have also found to be very helpful....if he thought it was his only chance off-leash he would be on a tear!
Some nice tips there, thx. When I started doing this, I had to guys to watch... not really the best, since I missed the eyes in my back. But more problematic were the times they chased horses, cows, long horns and other big animals wihout any fear. I remember I had to go true dirty ditches to get back to them. And still they didn't let me grab them. So there has been dangerous situations with horses, they just kill a dog with only one kick. But they survived and I kept them on the leash for many months. But with one new dog it may work well. I will try it for sure.
Here is my first encounter with shikoku's. A male and female pup, 7 months old. They were so sweet and nice, couldn't believe it. Really enjoyed the meeting, now we are sure we want a shikoku. still not clear though, when one will be available, but now we also know it's worth waiting for.
Reno and Rico, that photo says volumes about the Shikoku temperament. Very lovey and kissy, but still primative (ie, they like to mouth your arms). I really love this breed, it is like Siberians, but different. It has a lot of the quality I liked in Siberians, but also that I liked in other breeds (especially the trainability).
I'm sorry I'm kinda jumping in here, but that white shikoku looks like a bigger version of Shao New my shiba...could I possibly, seriously have a Shikoku? My parents swear she's a mutt (not 100% shiba), I'm wondering if she is really shiba / shikoku or just plain shikoku? She's not as big as the guys in the above pic...
Hello Irene,
we didn't post that picture, so maybe you ask Ayk, who did. It may also be a kishu but I am not the expert in this breed.
Here a pic from which I am sure it's a kishu, female, around 7 months old.
A Korean Jindo..no wonder this Korean lady stopped me in the street when we first got Spuds and said she looked liked her native country's dog, the Jindo, and I was instisting she is a Japanese Shiba lol. Oops ;-) Guess the lady wasn't nuts.
Joe, see all the trouble you got me into..Spuds is Shiba ...with essense of Jindo LOL.
Okay, problem solved? Or more the question? Jindo do look a lot like that. I think since the dog in the back isn'n a husky but a malamute, it makes the dog in front look smaller. It even seems to be a very big malamute, probably like 40 kgs/88 lbs. My huskies are big, but not nearly anything like this malamute.
"Do the Holland kennel and Akashima's kennel have similar bloodlines?"
I believe that Mike is from the Dutch Kennel (as is TK from IKON); thus some of the Shikoku are related because their parents/grandparents came from the Dutch kennel
Best as I can remember, Rene Hesselman, the Dutch person, got connected with the Shikoku via Mike Ross who lives in Japan. Mike Ross used to be heavily involved in the Shiba world. He was bilingual photographer and attended NIPPO shows. He was pretty invaluable for explaining the Japanese perspective on the Shiba. He also had an online album of Shikokus a long time ago. With his photography skills, the pics were quite awsome and caught the dogs' "spicy" spirits.
Rene Hesselman imported the Shikokus to Holland, became a member of one of the Japanese clubs (JKC? NIPPO?), entered FCI shows, and bred the Shikoku under the van Veghel name. Life changed though, and now Rene's former wife continues the Shikoku breeding but under the van de Egmato kennel name.
(All public knowledge that could be found on the web.)
The picture I posted was of a female Jindo and a male Malamute. The Malamute isn't really oversized for the breed, but the fat pads on his head gives him a heavy look that's not a very common style.
There are some minor differences between a Jindo and a Kishu. Ear set on a Jindo are more off to the side of the head instead of on top like a Kishu, Shiba, or Shikoku. More humble expression rather than alert when relaxed. In the same vein, stance is often described as more relaxed in a Jindo while a Japanese breed is often pushed forward on their toes.
Tail set is supposed to be straight up for the first couple of inches before curling or staying sabre-like. Koreans don't like donut tails or flip tails that's allowed in the Japanese breeds.
A Kishu tends to be bright pure white while a white Jindo tends to be more cream and some slight red/tan highlights can be found.
The most important difference is supposed to be in the eye set/shape. Kishu eyes are sharply angled and triangular from a distance while Jindo eyes are less severe and more almond.
See, that's where the forum has its usefulness. Learn from others, share information. These two Shikoku's are from the Dutch breader and brother / sister from Kekko from Tini. And they are as lovely and sweet as it gets :-)
Hope to see them more often, will post more pics.
Also, keep in mind, Ahi's litter was a repeat (and the first in the North America). The first breeding of Ishi x Yana was done in Holland and most of the pups stayed in Europe. Izyda, in Poland, (Akita.pl / Shikoku.pl) has a female from that breeding at it too looks a lot like Ahi/Aibo/Rakka. So those pups could be from that first breeding or progeny of one.
Irene - Keep in mind, the Shikoku head shape is unique among the Nihonken, they have a much longer muzzle and very little stop. This becomes even more apparent in a white/cream Shikoku. The head of your Shao New looks more Kishu/Jindo to me. Also, it's easy to tell a Kishu from other Nihonken because they have a longer body than the other Japanese breed - so that is another way to judge if your pup has some Kishu blood. A black/purple spot on the tongue would also help, that would mean Kai or Hokka (or Chow but I don't see that in your pup)... but it's really VERY unlikely to have Hokka blood in the US (there are only about 5 Hokka here). My guess would be Jindo or Kishu (as we do have a relatively active Kishu breeder in the US).
Thanks Brad. It's interesting that I thought getting a "purebred" dog would take the guessing game out, but being that she was bought at a store and her paperwork points to a puppymill (USDA approved dog breeder or something like that, plus sold to another 'farm / dog delivery " that's listed as a corn farmer), god only knows what her lineage was. I read in a book that creamies are not considered Shiba b/c they may have been cross bred wtih the Kishu way, way back when. Spuds definitely has a longer body, but her head looks more Jindo. Who knows maybe she's got shiba/Kishu/Jindo. Nonetheless she's a cool dog with a quirky, vocal personality
No worries, cream Shiba are Shiba. The possibility of a mixed breeding occuring 500+ years ago is just one theory to help explain (or hinder) the cream colouring and why that may not be best to utilize in a reputable breeding program as there are many stellar reds and b/ts available.
It would really take only 2 generations (or so) to select away from (intentionally or not) the proper Shiba size and head shape and end up producing monster Shiba with Jindo-ish heads. So, your pup is probably 100% Shiba, if she came from a store with papers that points to a mill, then I would bet she is a Shiba just not a properly bred one.
The cream Shiba is just a dilute, there are dilutes in most breeds. Some breeds allow the dilutes (look at blue pitbulls or CC) some breeds don't. The Shiba and Shikoku breed do not while the Kishu, Hokka, Akita, and Kai do. With the Akita the whites are allowed but the diluted brindle are not (aka blue brindle / silver brindle).
I think if you want the purebred dog, you can only do it by knowing the breeder directly so there are no questions left. Remains the question if you will like the outcome. Maybe less of importance with one color dogs (but many other aspects are important as well). With the shikoku also color and "pattern" are important as well. But I guess, as it is with Japanese koi, bodyshape, correct proportions and health are most important. And color/pattern comes next, maybe even last. But I just guess this. Beginners judge koi only on pattern, but that's about the least important thing to look for. Anyway, my huskies are brothers, and look completely different. Reno is a copy of his mother, where Rico looks identical like his father.
The pup has arrived, let's see… So far Reno is doing better than Rico, the other way around we expected it to be, but anyhow, it's only day two now. It will need some time. Photo's to be posted very soon! just around 90 days, male and gorgeous looking :-) but most of all; Fearless!
Comments
Well only one of ours is pulling all the time, even today Reno is still kind of not very comfortable, Rico is much better unless he encounters a cat or other small animal. I would be glad to have a shikoku not trying to pull my arm out all the time. But than, you have three huskies, can you walk all those by your self at the same time?
We were at a 500+ acre off leash dog park. He took off running around and thoroughly enjoying himself. Then he saw a small lake filled with water and without thinking just jumped in and ran to the center. Then he suddenly realized his surroundings and stood there as if he was frozen. I was like, "I'm not helping you out on this one buddy!" He eventually "came to" and slowly...with caution...walked back to put himself up on land. He didn't seem to enjoy any of it. However, I was highly amused -grins-.
Goofy dogs sometimes, I swear. However, highly entertaining.
My Shikoku are okay with water though. Sometimes they have to "warm up" and "ease" into it, depends on the kind of water in question (lake, ocean, bathtub, pool, hose, puddle, etc). Other times not so much, I guess it just depends on their energy level/mood on that particular day as well. In the bathtub, they will tolerate a shampoo & rinse. Outside using the hose, not so much. Well Shoushuu is pretty good on just standing there. Kotomi HATES the hose! Shoushuu has also had more exposure to water then Kotomi has, so that might be "the kicker" there.
When it rains, they don't really like being outside. Shoushuu will stand there all wet and soaked, even though he has shelter from it, waiting for me to open the door and bring him inside. That last time I left them out and it had started pooring...I caught Kotomi standing on top of a wheel barrel type thing in an attempt to stay dry. I guess the rain had gotten into the dog house or the ground flooded or something (I don't remember!)??? It was pretty funny though - quite a sight to see - smart dog!
-----------------------------------
The heat is usually never a good thing. More so the humidity...cooler weather would be best...but they can tolerate it to some degree. Kotomi doesn't seem to mind as much but Shoushuu hates it. So long as it's not too hot and they are about moving around...should be fine. However, if they are left in the yard during the heat...even with proper shelter...they aren't too happy about it. At least where I'm living at the moment, it's much cooler inside and they much prefer to be inside. They get "lazy" with the heat...but I suppose this is too be expected.
We do not have extreme heat in Estonia, but on hot days Kekko is much more active than huskies - huskies just sleep in the shadowed corner of the house, but Kekko sometimes walks around and the heat does not seem to bother him at all. With rain he is usually in the doggie house. Will see about the winter....how he will tolerate the cold.
Mine don't seems to hate the heat, Rico even goes out and sleeps in the burning sun. but high humidity slows them down seriously, In the car, during summer, we keep them in the airconditioned area. Rain doesn't bother them. When still puppies, Reno felt in the canal and there was no way to get out. However, I didn't know. Just saw Rico coming back alone. That was a first. Normally Reno is in lead, Rico just follows. So since they were playing along the canal, during cold but not freezing cold winter, Reno must have felt into the water. I was really scared since he was only 7 months or so and would never have the strength to climb out the straight wall of the canal. We searched for a long time, than finally, very far away on the other side of the water I saw a very small, dark, wet and shaking dot running towards me, while shouting his name. Somehow he managed to get out, still no clue how. Maybe someone pulled him out of the water. The wood on the side of the canal is between one and two feet high. But he was there and alive. We ran back home and it took a long time before he was dry and stopped shivering from the cold water. I was happy but a bit in shock. What if… luckely enough, he never developed a fear for water, check the pics, he still loves it.
Rico is like Kotomi, hates hoses and bathtubs in general. Swimming is okay, just not to deep.
Tini, I can imagen you cannot take 3 or 4 for a walk. R&R were staying over with my brothers wife, she is tough, police officer but kind of lite weight. The two saw a rabbit and decided to go after it at the same moment without giving notice. She holded the lines but was draged on her stomach through the ditch, filled with water, underneath the pivot wire and got to stop them a couple of meters into the pasture. Wow… to bad I missed that scenery :-) Until today I respect her for not letting go…
I would usually do this just before a meal, so that the treats were more "enticing" as he hadn't eaten yet. I would also sometimes walk for 20 minutes on leash if he seemed to have a lot of energy, so that he could calm down a bit. Regularity of being off leash I have also found to be very helpful....if he thought it was his only chance off-leash he would be on a tear!
we didn't post that picture, so maybe you ask Ayk, who did. It may also be a kishu but I am not the expert in this breed.
Here a pic from which I am sure it's a kishu, female, around 7 months old.
Joe, see all the trouble you got me into..Spuds is Shiba ...with essense of Jindo LOL.
Do the Holland kennel and Akashima's kennel have similar bloodlines?
I believe that Mike is from the Dutch Kennel (as is TK from IKON); thus some of the Shikoku are related because their parents/grandparents came from the Dutch kennel
http://www.akashima.bc.ca/Dogs in Canada 2005, The Shikoku amended.htm
Best as I can remember, Rene Hesselman, the Dutch person, got connected with the Shikoku via Mike Ross who lives in Japan. Mike Ross used to be heavily involved in the Shiba world. He was bilingual photographer and attended NIPPO shows. He was pretty invaluable for explaining the Japanese perspective on the Shiba. He also had an online album of Shikokus a long time ago. With his photography skills, the pics were quite awsome and caught the dogs' "spicy" spirits.
Rene Hesselman imported the Shikokus to Holland, became a member of one of the Japanese clubs (JKC? NIPPO?), entered FCI shows, and bred the Shikoku under the van Veghel name. Life changed though, and now Rene's former wife continues the Shikoku breeding but under the van de Egmato kennel name.
(All public knowledge that could be found on the web.)
There are some minor differences between a Jindo and a Kishu. Ear set on a Jindo are more off to the side of the head instead of on top like a Kishu, Shiba, or Shikoku. More humble expression rather than alert when relaxed.
In the same vein, stance is often described as more relaxed in a Jindo while a Japanese breed is often pushed forward on their toes.
Tail set is supposed to be straight up for the first couple of inches before curling or staying sabre-like. Koreans don't like donut tails or flip tails that's allowed in the Japanese breeds.
A Kishu tends to be bright pure white while a white Jindo tends to be more cream and some slight red/tan highlights can be found.
The most important difference is supposed to be in the eye set/shape. Kishu eyes are sharply angled and triangular from a distance while Jindo eyes are less severe and more almond.
Hope to see them more often, will post more pics.
----
----
The cream Shiba is just a dilute, there are dilutes in most breeds. Some breeds allow the dilutes (look at blue pitbulls or CC) some breeds don't. The Shiba and Shikoku breed do not while the Kishu, Hokka, Akita, and Kai do. With the Akita the whites are allowed but the diluted brindle are not (aka blue brindle / silver brindle).
----