nice stuff brad, Kumi has some great features I think bring a lot to the table and am very excited to see what comes of her litters. I was just checking out your photos and saw the new ones of Nio, boy does he look to be growing nicely. Why not Nio x Kumi? Is there another you wanna pair with Nio for sure?
@hondru - Well, I'm not saying we will do all those breedings, I was just list off the crosses we have considered for her.
@jujee - A Kumi x Kyuubi (or Sosuke) matting is not a bad idea either, we'll have to see how they all turn out first tho.
@WCP - As for Nio, as you know, not every dog is perfect. Nio and Kumi both have traits that, IMHO, are too similar and potentially unwanted to risk compounding.
One of the most important things we want to produce, as a kennel, are socially adept Kai Ken. We want our Kai Ken to default to "cautiously optimistic" when encountering new dogs. We don't expect them to run up to a (new) dogs and lick their face (that would be rude), but we do expect them to show a level-headed low-key friendly interest in them and a muted (aloof) interest in new people (tho, with their reaction to people, I wouldn't consider "very friendly" a fault either).
Both Kumi and Nio have a hesitance toward meeting new dogs that I don't love. They react to new dogs in different ways but, while very subtle, the hesitance is still there and I notice it. Also, Nio and Kumi are both rather gritty Kai Ken. Nio has a real sharpness to him, while Kumi can be a bit of a bully at times. I worry these traits could mix together and polarize producing some pups who lack the social instincts we feel a Kai Ken should have (or worse).
Then there is one small aesthetic trait that they both have that I don't want to compound: light colored eyes. It's probably hard to tell in the pictures above, but Kumi has a medium brown eye color (which is totally fine), while Nio has a light brown eye color (not a big fault, but they are a little light colored for my taste). I worry that their puppies would all have Nio's color eye since Kumi's eye color might not be dark enough to cover that fault.
That's why I really like Ritus for Kumi, he has a very dark eye color, is VERY social with dogs, has a subtle aloofness with people, has nice thick bone and some leg. He's also a very "socially comfortable" dog. He's a "Hilo" (Jessica's Akita) - he makes his point without over-the-top corrections. A simple look from Ritsu (or Hilo) and the other dogs knows not to take his resource at that moment... but then, Ritsu will usually drop the resource and walk away as if to say "meh, it's not that important to me... since you asked politely, you can have it". I like that a lot. I like dogs who use the LIMA (least invasive, minimally aversive) approach to training other dogs. LOL
I hope that answers the question clearly. I don't mean to say Kumi is not good with dogs, she is very good, but there is still room for improvement when meeting new ones. I set a really high bar for that type of thing tho.
^great read there, very informative. I love reading about the Kai's temperaments because there seems to be such a range and mishmash of traits. I think that Ritsu x Kumi sounds awesome, other kennels might not have the luxury of having such a pool to draw from and its great to hear you'll make use of it. I think the program will get really strong in the year or 2, its a very exciting time to see your progress! Also, you take very good pics very often
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that many Kai are more on the introverted side... but I was watching some videos of Taka and Riku and they don't seem to show much of that. Maybe its because the more bold traits are bred for in Kishu's and those that don't desire that have gone the Kai route more in recent times? That would make sense as it seems that people aren't really hunting with Kai's, and the Kishu has seem to take that role over. I haven't seen a lot of Ritsu but he seems kinda like Riku, a little bit extroverted for a Kai but not in a way thats overly obnoxious or aggressive. I really like that kind of disposition for them, because they still act 'Kai' but not so much shy.
The program is obviously so strong that you have all these options for pairings, and better yet, many different traits. I can't wait to see the amazing dogs that are to come
Yeah, I'm just joking about Kumi getting around. I know she'll only be bred a few times.
Sosuke's not shy at all, so if he keeps that up (and if his testicles clue in and descend) he'd be good for mating with the shier females. But, of course, it's a long way off until we really know how he turns out.
I think by nature a kai should be aloof with human strangers and calm and curious with strange dogs. The Kishu I have met are somewhere between the Shikoku and the Kai. Well socialized Shikoku tend to be very people friendly and rude/excitable with strange dogs. I think some Shikoku (Ahi) are just as rude with people too, but we (humans) just tolerate it more than dogs.
In the states we have an issue with "shy kai", so I am happy that some of the Kai we have imported are more outgoing than the norm. Ayu, Ritsu, Haru, and Kumi are like that - not like Shikoku - but still less aloof than the average Kai.
Personally, I like my dogs to be aloof with strangers. I like a dog that has to "warm up" to you before he/she shows their personality. I think this makes for an easier dog to manage and socialize.
Akashi is a good example of this. When he meets someone new he's like "meh", but then if you stick around he'll start to show interest in you and eventually become your buddy. He's the same way with dogs, politely greats them and then goes off on his own to chew on a stick or hunt things. Later, if the dog is still around, he will initiate some play time. I like that.
Ah yeah cool, I thought that might be the case with US Kai but there aren't very many so I wasn't sure. I really like the temperament of the japan Kai from the few I've seen and the ones you imported are a great reflection of that. Good points about attitude, I never really thought of it that way before. I wish I've met dogs like more often, because most I meet tend to sit right up against me and stare up like I'm going to give them attention, meanwhile I'm thinking "I just met you, at least give me 20 minutes to warm to ya".
I feel ya on the curious thing too, when I've watched Kai being worked you can always see the curious ingenuity churning in their heads, its a different thing for me when I see one show shyness or the sort of caution that exceeds simple self preservation instinct.
I would not describe Sosuke as aloof with people. He likes attention from strangers, although it's much less than Rakka's excitement about meeting people. Sosuke greets people if that's what we're doing. As in, if we're out walking, and I stop to talk to someone, or someone comes up to pet Sosuke, then he is very friendly, licking fingers and wagging his tail. Sometimes if he sees someone, he will pull toward them. But, if we just move on, or I tell him we're doing something else, then he's kind of like, "Okay, we're not doing that right now. Maybe later." Whereas getting Rakka to see someone without greeting them has been a whole process that we're still working on. Getting Rakka to not jump up and get super excited is tough, too. We've kind of gotten to the point where she's polite if someone's ignoring her, but if they engage her, she bursts onto them. Sosuke's much more sensible than that. It's nice to see people, but it's also nice to do other things. He's more interested in people than dogs, though. He is very curious about other dogs, but not rude like a shikoku. He's met cats and a donkey, too, and he was sensibly curious about them. It seems to me a proper kai would have gotten more excited over the donkey, but he and the donkey investigated each other, and that was that. I know Rakka sure wanted to bite the donkey's face off when she met him, but she gets along with him now.
I would expect him to become more aloof with strangers at around 8 months of age. As for the Donkey, he may have had a different reaction if he had first been introduced to the Donkey when he/she was moving. But I dunno, a Donkey is a good bit bigger than anything a Kai would traditionally hunt.
Well, yeah, this donkey wasn't acting like a prey animal. He knows lots of dogs and likes making friends with them. He's already friends with Rakka, and she was there, and they were just standing there touching noses, so I guess it's not surprising that Sosuke didn't go into predator mode. And, I recall when he first met Rakka, he didn't like dogs, and he wasn't so calm and friendly toward her. Actually, they really hated each other and I'm still surprised at how friendly they are now.
@brada1878- I would make up my mind soon Brad and start running them together, unless you plan on A.I. In my expereinces the girls tend to decide who they like and ignore everyone else regardless of what you decide. Maddie refused Stoney for 2 heats because she fancied Rocky. And I had Storm refuse Treasure (Rocky again) and Spirit used to back up to the fence of who she decided was worthy.
The list goes on ... They really seem to have a mind of their own.. if you are using Tyson it will not be as difficult, unless Tyson comes there.
I fancy Kibou too, he is a very handsome boy last photo I saw! Should really try keeping tabs on him. Kibou was one of the first Kai Ken Army imports, right?
I think Kibou x Kumi or Ritsu x Kumi might make for some gorgeous pups. Kumi is such a sweet little girl and she acts so mature for her age! Her face kinds reminds me a bit of Haru...do they share similar lines?
@kaikenone - Kibou is an import that came to use with Kumi. He is a nice dog, but he was having some issues with our litter of (9) Caucasain Ovcharka pups we had t the time (Kibou was a little soft). So, we placed him in a cooperative home (in the Denver area) so that he wouldn't have a bad experience here.
He was kept intact by Dave (his owner) for us to use him, but I know that they want to neuter him eventually, so I want to use him sooner than later so that they can neuter him ASAP.
Due to the distance, we will probably do an AI with Kibou. I would rather do it 100% natural, even letting Kumi pic her mate, but with Kibou we'll probably need to do an AI. I don't want to lose Kibou's bloodlines as he has some very nice (large) Akatora dogs behind him.
he doesn't seem that far from you, although he is pretty far from me... any thought of freezing semen.. the vet I spoke to said the best time was age 2.. and also with AI, because they collect it ,he would never actually breed a dog and dave might not get the male doggyness.
Pam used to do that with some of her Akita's and they seemed a lot less doggy around other dogs. She used to keep Boogie in with some of her male Shibas. And a female in heat didn't even phase Kid in fact I beleive Regina tried natural with Kid and it was no go..
@kaikenone - It's a six hour drive, so it's not that far, but when you add the difficulty of timing into the mix it's easier to just plan for a vaginal AI. We could get up there, try a natural breeding with no luck, then drive back here and try with someone else... but then we risk missing on the timing. Also, Kumi gets bit car sick, so it's unlikely she will be "in the mood" to do a natural tie once we get up there.
Also, like everyone else breeding Kai here, our options are rather limited. Tyson and Kibou are our oldest imported Kai Ken, but they are still younger than I like.
We have Kona, but with the registration issues I dunno if using him will ever really happen. Plus I don't like the "feel" of a Kona x Kumi mix.
So, we will do prelims and choose between Tyson and Kibou when the times comes for Kumi's first breeding as I don't want to wait too long with her and end up with the situation we had with Loa.
Pam has a great set up so I was comfortable with leaving my female there, and leaving her at Rita's was ok too, except she spoils them too much That is the easiest way for me. There would be no way I could make the drive down there and back every day or every other day... with school and everything. Shima just went on vacation for a month.Pam brought her back this way when she came to the Nippo show, so it worked out well.
Kumi is the female I really like (not that they aren't all nice, she just stands out to me) but I have not seen a lot of pics of Tyson or Kibou. Would like to see more of them...hint, hint
I didn't realize at first that there were 2 Dave's with male imports, so I was really confused. Kibou's Dave contacted me a while back to see if I had a playmate for him ( Kibou ) but I wasn't comfortable shipping the one I had. She's a bit on the shy side. I don't really like shipping the older shy ones. I don't mind shipping puppys or older stable ones though.
Ok, looks like my mind is wandering now...sorry, old age!
@kaikenone - Yea, Dr. Dave is my close friend who owns Tyson (formally know as Tai). Dave took Tyson home with him when he visited here and we saw how well Tyson did with Joey (Dave's Shiba). He is the one that will have to provide pics of him. @dlroberts
Dave and his wife in Denver own Kibou. They came to our place to pick up Kibou and met several of our dogs. Maybe when we do a mating with Kibou I can take some new pics of him.
@tsukitsune - The registration issue is that a KKA Kai Ken cannot be registered with the UKC without a "special favor" from the breed club, and a non-KKA dog can't be registered with the KKA. So, as of now, Kona can't be registered with the KKA and Kumi can't be registered with the UKC. With some effort I could probably get Kona registered with NIPPO and Kumi registered on a limited NIPPO (breeding) registration, so their pups would have NIPPO papers. But, with me being less interested in the Kumi x Kona breeding, I probably will not go through that effort. Also, KKA only allows their dogs to be registered with KKA (no dual registration), and so registering Kumi with NIPPO risks losing her KKA reg (which I would HATE).
@brad1878 Is it possible to elevated this beyond the breed club level? Ask the President or VP of the UKC directly? It's not really the pairing of Kona x Kumi that I'm pushing for, but rather all UKC-KKA projeny dogs being UKC eligible.
Just to clarify, does the KKA consider UKC registration as "dual registration"?
@ayk - Yes, if we got the UKC to accept the Kai Ken Aigokai (KKA) as a foreign registry then the breed club wouldn't be involved. I have discussed this with the UKC, and the requirements to get that done are within reason but require approval from the KKA. Shigs and I have been working on that (with the KKA) for awhile now.
Yes, registering a KKA dog with the UKC would be considered a dual registration by the KKA, and so that dog's KKA registration would be revoked (if the KKA found out about it).
If the UKC were to accept KKA as a foreign reg. then a KKA kennel would probably not register their dogs with the UKC, but it would allow the puppies produced by that kennel to be registered with the UKC once they received their KKA papers. This would leave it up to the individual puppy owner as to if they want UKC registration at the risk of losing their KKA registration.
Comments
@jujee - A Kumi x Kyuubi (or Sosuke) matting is not a bad idea either, we'll have to see how they all turn out first tho.
@WCP - As for Nio, as you know, not every dog is perfect. Nio and Kumi both have traits that, IMHO, are too similar and potentially unwanted to risk compounding.
One of the most important things we want to produce, as a kennel, are socially adept Kai Ken. We want our Kai Ken to default to "cautiously optimistic" when encountering new dogs. We don't expect them to run up to a (new) dogs and lick their face (that would be rude), but we do expect them to show a level-headed low-key friendly interest in them and a muted (aloof) interest in new people (tho, with their reaction to people, I wouldn't consider "very friendly" a fault either).
Both Kumi and Nio have a hesitance toward meeting new dogs that I don't love. They react to new dogs in different ways but, while very subtle, the hesitance is still there and I notice it. Also, Nio and Kumi are both rather gritty Kai Ken. Nio has a real sharpness to him, while Kumi can be a bit of a bully at times. I worry these traits could mix together and polarize producing some pups who lack the social instincts we feel a Kai Ken should have (or worse).
Then there is one small aesthetic trait that they both have that I don't want to compound: light colored eyes. It's probably hard to tell in the pictures above, but Kumi has a medium brown eye color (which is totally fine), while Nio has a light brown eye color (not a big fault, but they are a little light colored for my taste). I worry that their puppies would all have Nio's color eye since Kumi's eye color might not be dark enough to cover that fault.
That's why I really like Ritus for Kumi, he has a very dark eye color, is VERY social with dogs, has a subtle aloofness with people, has nice thick bone and some leg. He's also a very "socially comfortable" dog. He's a "Hilo" (Jessica's Akita) - he makes his point without over-the-top corrections. A simple look from Ritsu (or Hilo) and the other dogs knows not to take his resource at that moment... but then, Ritsu will usually drop the resource and walk away as if to say "meh, it's not that important to me... since you asked politely, you can have it". I like that a lot. I like dogs who use the LIMA (least invasive, minimally aversive) approach to training other dogs. LOL
I hope that answers the question clearly. I don't mean to say Kumi is not good with dogs, she is very good, but there is still room for improvement when meeting new ones. I set a really high bar for that type of thing tho.
----
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems that many Kai are more on the introverted side... but I was watching some videos of Taka and Riku and they don't seem to show much of that. Maybe its because the more bold traits are bred for in Kishu's and those that don't desire that have gone the Kai route more in recent times? That would make sense as it seems that people aren't really hunting with Kai's, and the Kishu has seem to take that role over. I haven't seen a lot of Ritsu but he seems kinda like Riku, a little bit extroverted for a Kai but not in a way thats overly obnoxious or aggressive. I really like that kind of disposition for them, because they still act 'Kai' but not so much shy.
The program is obviously so strong that you have all these options for pairings, and better yet, many different traits. I can't wait to see the amazing dogs that are to come
Sosuke's not shy at all, so if he keeps that up (and if his testicles clue in and descend) he'd be good for mating with the shier females. But, of course, it's a long way off until we really know how he turns out.
In the states we have an issue with "shy kai", so I am happy that some of the Kai we have imported are more outgoing than the norm. Ayu, Ritsu, Haru, and Kumi are like that - not like Shikoku - but still less aloof than the average Kai.
Personally, I like my dogs to be aloof with strangers. I like a dog that has to "warm up" to you before he/she shows their personality. I think this makes for an easier dog to manage and socialize.
Akashi is a good example of this. When he meets someone new he's like "meh", but then if you stick around he'll start to show interest in you and eventually become your buddy. He's the same way with dogs, politely greats them and then goes off on his own to chew on a stick or hunt things. Later, if the dog is still around, he will initiate some play time. I like that.
----
I feel ya on the curious thing too, when I've watched Kai being worked you can always see the curious ingenuity churning in their heads, its a different thing for me when I see one show shyness or the sort of caution that exceeds simple self preservation instinct.
----
The list goes on ... They really seem to have a mind of their own.. if you are using Tyson it will not be as difficult, unless Tyson comes there.
I think Kibou x Kumi or Ritsu x Kumi might make for some gorgeous pups. Kumi is such a sweet little girl and she acts so mature for her age! Her face kinds reminds me a bit of Haru...do they share similar lines?
He was kept intact by Dave (his owner) for us to use him, but I know that they want to neuter him eventually, so I want to use him sooner than later so that they can neuter him ASAP.
Here are some pictures of Kibou: http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/5946/pictures-of-kibou/p1
Due to the distance, we will probably do an AI with Kibou. I would rather do it 100% natural, even letting Kumi pic her mate, but with Kibou we'll probably need to do an AI. I don't want to lose Kibou's bloodlines as he has some very nice (large) Akatora dogs behind him.
----
----
Pam used to do that with some of her Akita's and they seemed a lot less doggy around other dogs. She used to keep Boogie in with some of her male Shibas. And a female in heat didn't even phase Kid in fact I beleive Regina tried natural with Kid and it was no go..
Also, like everyone else breeding Kai here, our options are rather limited. Tyson and Kibou are our oldest imported Kai Ken, but they are still younger than I like.
We have Kona, but with the registration issues I dunno if using him will ever really happen. Plus I don't like the "feel" of a Kona x Kumi mix.
So, we will do prelims and choose between Tyson and Kibou when the times comes for Kumi's first breeding as I don't want to wait too long with her and end up with the situation we had with Loa.
----
Hmmmm......that's BS I wanted Kona pups. But Kona x Kumi doesn't match.
Pam has a great set up so I was comfortable with leaving my female there, and leaving her at Rita's was ok too, except she spoils them too much
Kumi is the female I really like (not that they aren't all nice, she just stands out to me) but I have not seen a lot of pics of Tyson or Kibou. Would like to see more of them...hint, hint
I didn't realize at first that there were 2 Dave's with male imports, so I was really confused. Kibou's Dave contacted me a while back to see if I had a playmate for him ( Kibou ) but I wasn't comfortable shipping the one I had. She's a bit on the shy side. I don't really like shipping the older shy ones. I don't mind shipping puppys or older stable ones though.
Ok, looks like my mind is wandering now...sorry, old age!
Dave and his wife in Denver own Kibou. They came to our place to pick up Kibou and met several of our dogs. Maybe when we do a mating with Kibou I can take some new pics of him.
----
----
With Kona x Kumi, though it doesn't feel right, what registration issues are there? Do you have to keep KKA dogs pure to other KKA dogs?
Kumi looks marvelous, I think I have to add green beans to my shiba Kitsu's diet. He looks like pre-Jenny Craig Kumi.
----
Just to clarify, does the KKA consider UKC registration as "dual registration"?
Yes, registering a KKA dog with the UKC would be considered a dual registration by the KKA, and so that dog's KKA registration would be revoked (if the KKA found out about it).
If the UKC were to accept KKA as a foreign reg. then a KKA kennel would probably not register their dogs with the UKC, but it would allow the puppies produced by that kennel to be registered with the UKC once they received their KKA papers. This would leave it up to the individual puppy owner as to if they want UKC registration at the risk of losing their KKA registration.
----